Your News Updates and Photos Here Please ! - johnfas, Ard-Taoiseach and Hermes report from the Dail

CF wrote:

From the RTE coverage, it looked like a protest mainly by the
well-heeled - middle classes under a serious squeeze, as we have talked
about here quite a bit. Looks more mixed from your photos and
johnfas's. Not suprised that no great confidence was shown in the
opposition, but FG is getting a lift out of this (although I can't see
that they would do much different).
Is anybody else?

RTE barely made an appearence and didn't bother mixing with the riff raff. The protest was very much a representation of the population and was not at all a class thing. For the most part (excepting the dude with the mic as pictured above), the media confined themselves to the truck parked opposite the Dáil and inside the gates of Leinster House, with one or two venturing outside after the protest to get some oneliners from the politicians brave enough to wander around.

EVM wrote:

Excellent Hermes. I love the levitating Garda.

Cheers EVM. I absolutely love the levitating garda pic. I couldn't believe me eyes when I snapped it

Hermes wrote:

CF wrote:

Thanks for that Hermes. Some great shots. Any impressions of the day?

No problem.

Loads of impressions. I spent the day talking to people.

The elderly are really pissed. Even if the government had shelved all plans dealing with the medical card issue, yesterday's protest would have been huge. The medical card debacle was just the straw that broke the camel's back. All in all, they're not too impressed with the opposition either. I got a sense of confusion coming from the majority I spoke with, they don't feel represented and cannot figure out how it's come to this.

The students imo were just looking to hit the streets. It's been a massively long time since they last got political. Fair enough, the fees issue was the focal point, but it seemed to me that it was just an excuse to flex their collective muscle. I think they surprised themselves moreso than anyone else.

I think it'd be a mistake to consider either of yesterday's protests to be only about the issues that facilitated them. I also think that the mainstream media will spin these protests as being about singular issues and that those who took part, did so, merely out of self interest. The politicians will push this line too. Big mistake imo.

The students in particular should be a major cause of concern. Yesterday they were in good spirits and getting into the buzz of exercising their rights. But, as I said, it wasn't about fees for most of those I spoke with. Their numbers totally took the Gardaí by surprise. Imagine if that size of a protest decided to rampage.

We're at a tipping point and the authorities ought to take notice and stop paying lip service.

Some more pics here.

Do you have any expectation that they will? Personally I don't think they are for turning, or are able to deliver an alternative.

Nope, not for a moment. I honestly believe, that for the most part, most politicians are living in la la land and are totally out of touch with reality and the electorate. Fair enough I'm biased, as is pretty obvious, but they didn't see this coming. It seems to me that the only ones who consider the reports of RTE and the media in general to be gospel, are the media and politicians.

I have been wondering seriously what is going on in the minds of the Cabinet members. So far the only brief statements on the economy in the last six months or more entirely blame US subprime for the Irish economic crisis. They don't provide any assessment of how we got here and what needs to be changed - just there is a credit crunch and we have to cut services. The Regulator looks and sounds unfit to audit a Christmas Club.
The Taoiseach has taken on Peter Clinch a town planner as his senior advisor and seems deaf to all the professional economists. Does he think Clinch will come up with a magic solution for the construction slump?

They look bewildered and the one thought that comes through loud and clear from them is that the Man/Woman in the street should pay.

I look forward to the day when people realise that someone is paying for all the things they now accept as free. The politicians have faced reality and the public are in la la land.

This medical cut was to save 100 million. Willie had a great question for Gilmore, where is the 1300 million cut going to come from. That Gilmore and Kenny are both disgraces trying to take electoral hay from the situation. Have they said what they would cut. They should both resign as they are not part of the solution

That's the crux of it CF. The proles have to pay.

The government think that they can blame all the crap on an economic downturn. We had an alleged economic policy based on securing foreign investment, without ever realising (I'm being kind here) that investors are not engaging in charity and expect to profit from their activities. We didn't have an economic policy at all, we had a gambling problem. Our so-called economic policy was an exercise of putting all our eggs in one basket, and we're all going to hell in this hand basket unless the fools wake up and start taking measures that focus on the long term. Glue and sticky tape will not work this time round. Even the dogs on the street can see this.

We're in real serious trouble and we need to act now.

I know one person who is not one bit impressed with all this OAP protesting. Senator Geraldine Feeney wishes to God those impudent old people would just have a bit of manners.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/1023/1224625124785.html

youngdan wrote:

I look forward to the day when people realise that someone is paying for all the things they now accept as free. The politicians have faced reality and the public are in la la land.

This medical cut was to save 100 million. Willie had a great question for Gilmore, where is the 1300 million cut going to come from. That Gilmore and Kenny are both disgraces trying to take electoral hay from the situation. Have they said what they would cut. They should both resign as they are not part of the solution

The EUFOR in Chad cost 100 million so far. Cutting that would be a start. Then the plate-glass greyhound stadia, 70 million. Just give me a knife and a copy of the estimates and let me at it.

cactus flower wrote:

youngdan wrote:

I look forward to the day when people realise that someone is paying for all the things they now accept as free. The politicians have faced reality and the public are in la la land.

This medical cut was to save 100 million. Willie had a great question for Gilmore, where is the 1300 million cut going to come from. That Gilmore and Kenny are both disgraces trying to take electoral hay from the situation. Have they said what they would cut. They should both resign as they are not part of the solution

The EUFOR in Chad cost 100 million so far. Cutting that would be a start. Then the plate-glass greyhound stadia, 70 million. Just give me a knife and a copy of the estimates and let me at it.

Methinks you'd get a huge vote if you were in politics. That's the attitude.

Don't forget the potential €500 billion in gas giveaways either.

Hermes wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

youngdan wrote:

I look forward to the day when people realise that someone is paying for all the things they now accept as free. The politicians have faced reality and the public are in la la land.

This medical cut was to save 100 million. Willie had a great question for Gilmore, where is the 1300 million cut going to come from. That Gilmore and Kenny are both disgraces trying to take electoral hay from the situation. Have they said what they would cut. They should both resign as they are not part of the solution

The EUFOR in Chad cost 100 million so far. Cutting that would be a start. Then the plate-glass greyhound stadia, 70 million. Just give me a knife and a copy of the estimates and let me at it.

Methinks you'd get a huge vote if you were in politics. That's the attitude.

Don't forget the potential €500 billion in gas giveaways either.

Auditor and Evm are preparing something for the site that will give everyone the opportunity of thinking about how best to weild the knife. We'll keep you posted.

I want a knife too. And another thing, we still haven't gotten to the bottom of the missing 10 billion overspend on road projects. Some universities, while cutting teaching and research budgets, have been getting themselves into massive debt capital-expenditure wise - once again our property chums were on the gravy train. Has anyone else noticed how the NDP always came down to buildings, somehow, never to staff or services. These effers had knives in the pie every which way possible. What about subsidies and tax concessions to 'investors' in the health service? This should all be stopped. All government contracts with management and PR consultants should be halted forthwith - we really ought to form a budget cabinet of our own here on MN.

Sounds like what is needed. I will cut from one side and ye from the other. This 48 billion euro pig needs a trimming.

youngdan wrote:

I look forward to the day when people realise that someone is paying for all the things they now accept as free. The politicians have faced reality and the public are in la la land.

This medical cut was to save 100 million. Willie had a great question for Gilmore, where is the 1300 million cut going to come from. That Gilmore and Kenny are both disgraces trying to take electoral hay from the situation. Have they said what they would cut. They should both resign as they are not part of the solution

A government should lead by example. They could begin by downsizing themselves first and their ridiculously high salaries and accumulating pensions. After that I have to share your sentiments about cutting in that the government absoluetly has to balance the books now or things will get much worse in the future.
While the opposition parties are taking the populist route it would be electorally insane for say Fine Gael to p*ss off potential voters. Let them be judged by their actions in government. FF on the otherhand have to take responsibility for having having expaning government, the public service etc beyond what this country could have afforded. That Harney and McDowell actually went along with this, shows what a betrayal the PDs were to the principals of financial prudence and small effeicient government. FG on the other hand are probably the only party to ever have fought an election with a manefsto on cutbacks. As for FF, apart from a brief period in the late 1980s they were also the party of public expansion. Political power is a means of stripping the country of its wealth and giving it to their friends and patrons.

Aragon wrote:

I want a knife too. And another thing, we still haven't gotten to the bottom of the missing 10 billion overspend on road projects. Some universities, while cutting teaching and research budgets, have been getting themselves into massive debt capital-expenditure wise - once again our property chums were on the gravy train. Has anyone else noticed how the NDP always came down to buildings, somehow, never to staff or services. These effers had knives in the pie every which way possible. What about subsidies and tax concessions to 'investors' in the health service? This should all be stopped. All government contracts with management and PR consultants should be halted forthwith - we really ought to form a budget cabinet of our own here on MN.

I'll give you a guillotine.

Respvblica wrote:

youngdan wrote:

I look forward to the day when people realise that someone is paying for all the things they now accept as free. The politicians have faced reality and the public are in la la land.

This medical cut was to save 100 million. Willie had a great question for Gilmore, where is the 1300 million cut going to come from. That Gilmore and Kenny are both disgraces trying to take electoral hay from the situation. Have they said what they would cut. They should both resign as they are not part of the solution

A government should lead by example. They could begin by downsizing themselves first and their ridiculously high salaries and accumulating pensions. After that I have to share your sentiments about cutting in that the government absoluetly has to balance the books now or things will get much worse in the future.
While the opposition parties are taking the populist route it would be electorally insane for say Fine Gael to p*ss off potential voters. Let them be judged by their actions in government. FF on the otherhand have to take responsibility for having having expaning government, the public service etc beyond what this country could have afforded. That Harney and McDowell actually went along with this, shows what a betrayal the PDs were to the principals of financial prudence and small effeicient government. FG on the other hand are probably the only party to ever have fought an election with a manefsto on cutbacks. As for FF, apart from a brief period in the late 1980s they were also the party of public expansion. Political power is a means of stripping the country of its wealth and giving it to their friends and patrons.

When did they do that? I remember them in 2007 trying to outdo FFs election promises.

Political power is a means of stripping the country of it's wealth and giving it to their friends and patrons.

EXACTLY.

Human nature being as it is the only sane thing is to minimize the amount of loot they get.

Contrary to popular belief I do worry about the old codgers. How come with all the plackards there was none calling for every soldier to be sacked. Has anyone a picture of those fancy armoured vehicles, what are they for.

Who were those on this site a few months ago promoting an Irish participation in a European force. At the time they said it was to repel an African invasion. Any sign of the warriors aproaching. What a hoot.

youngdan wrote:

Political power is a means of stripping the country of it's wealth and giving it to their friends and patrons.

EXACTLY.

Human nature being as it is the only sane thing is to minimize the amount of loot they get.

Contrary to popular belief I do worry about the old codgers. How come with all the plackards there was none calling for every soldier to be sacked. Has anyone a picture of those fancy armoured vehicles, what are they for.

Who were those on this site a few months ago promoting an Irish participation in a European force. At the time they said it was to repel an African invasion. Any sign of the warriors aproaching. What a hoot.

Glad to see you have a human side, youngdan . I think you are mixing this site up with Politics.ie though

cactus flower wrote:

Respvblica wrote:

youngdan wrote:

I look forward to the day when people realise that someone is paying for all the things they now accept as free. The politicians have faced reality and the public are in la la land.

This medical cut was to save 100 million. Willie had a great question for Gilmore, where is the 1300 million cut going to come from. That Gilmore and Kenny are both disgraces trying to take electoral hay from the situation. Have they said what they would cut. They should both resign as they are not part of the solution

A government should lead by example. They could begin by downsizing themselves first and their ridiculously high salaries and accumulating pensions. After that I have to share your sentiments about cutting in that the government absoluetly has to balance the books now or things will get much worse in the future.
While the opposition parties are taking the populist route it would be electorally insane for say Fine Gael to p*ss off potential voters. Let them be judged by their actions in government. FF on the otherhand have to take responsibility for having having expaning government, the public service etc beyond what this country could have afforded. That Harney and McDowell actually went along with this, shows what a betrayal the PDs were to the principals of financial prudence and small effeicient government. FG on the other hand are probably the only party to ever have fought an election with a manefsto on cutbacks. As for FF, apart from a brief period in the late 1980s they were also the party of public expansion. Political power is a means of stripping the country of its wealth and giving it to their friends and patrons.

When did they do that? I remember them in 2007 trying to outdo FFs election promises.

1987. It was the reason why they could support the Tallaght strategy.

cactus flower wrote:

Respvblica wrote:

youngdan wrote:

I look forward to the day when people realise that someone is paying for all the things they now accept as free. The politicians have faced reality and the public are in la la land.

This medical cut was to save 100 million. Willie had a great question for Gilmore, where is the 1300 million cut going to come from. That Gilmore and Kenny are both disgraces trying to take electoral hay from the situation. Have they said what they would cut. They should both resign as they are not part of the solution

A government should lead by example. They could begin by downsizing themselves first and their ridiculously high salaries and accumulating pensions. After that I have to share your sentiments about cutting in that the government absoluetly has to balance the books now or things will get much worse in the future.
While the opposition parties are taking the populist route it would be electorally insane for say Fine Gael to p*ss off potential voters. Let them be judged by their actions in government. FF on the otherhand have to take responsibility for having having expaning government, the public service etc beyond what this country could have afforded. That Harney and McDowell actually went along with this, shows what a betrayal the PDs were to the principals of financial prudence and small effeicient government. FG on the other hand are probably the only party to ever have fought an election with a manefsto on cutbacks. As for FF, apart from a brief period in the late 1980s they were also the party of public expansion. Political power is a means of stripping the country of its wealth and giving it to their friends and patrons.

When did they do that? I remember them in 2007 trying to outdo FFs election promises.

Res is referring to the 1987 Manifesto - which was adopted by the Victors FF - who conveniently dumped the "Health cuts hit the poor young and aged" manifesto once sitting in power and faced with the Brutal facts.

Basic lesson - the Irish electorate in general are a bunch of shortsighted self centered selfish bastards with the memory capacity of a goldfish.

Honesty will get you absolutely nowhere - that does not lead to any great hope for the future here - considering the illusion we have been living for the last 10 years.

If it were up to me a person would be paying 50 pence for a litre of petrol. 10% tax and he could buy health insurance and a pack of fags for his granny.

Quote :

Basic lesson - the Irish electorate in general are a bunch of shortsighted self centered selfish bastards with the memory capacity of a goldfish.

Amen.

Aragon wrote:

Quote :

Basic lesson - the Irish electorate in general are a bunch of shortsighted self centered selfish bastards with the memory capacity of a goldfish.

Amen.

I can't agree with that. If you put a sensible question to people, like do you want to pay tax for good public services, they generally say yes. Most people go about their business and rely on elected reps to do the work for which they are being paid innordinate amounts of money. I don't think it is a situation of politicians devils, voters angels, but our politicians have taken on responsibilities. The electoral system limits the amount of influence voters have between elections.

cactus flower wrote:

Aragon wrote:

Quote :

Basic lesson - the Irish electorate in general are a bunch of shortsighted self centered selfish bastards with the memory capacity of a goldfish.

Amen.

I can't agree with that. If you put a sensible question to people, like do you want to pay tax for good public services, they generally say yes. Most people go about their business and rely on elected reps to do the work for which they are being paid innordinate amounts of money. I don't think it is a situation of politicians devils, voters angels, but our politicians have taken on responsibilities. The electoral system limits the amount of influence voters have between elections.

I agree that the system is at fault. The factors determining a single vote in the genereal election are subject to so many different variables as to make it almost impossible for that vote to be cast objectively by everybody. Tribalism, localism, and even ideology need to be factored out to ensure that democracy works for the particular level it is aimed at - in this case the choice of a national government. I have no problem with independents seeking election to the Dail , as a national legislature, but if then the Dail is the instrument from which the government is chosen then I think that there is a major flaw.
The system is causing a dangerous coalescing of powers in a single place.. It makes our politcians corrupt and incompetant, while making our populace appear stupid. My own belief is that no single expert or "great and virtuous leader" can match or outwit the collective intelligence of the Irish people. They just havent properly had the chance to fully express themselves.
The more democratic and free the system, the more prosperous and successful the republic.

Respvblica wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

Aragon wrote:

Quote :

Basic lesson - the Irish electorate in general are a bunch of shortsighted self centered selfish bastards with the memory capacity of a goldfish.

Amen.

I can't agree with that. If you put a sensible question to people, like do you want to pay tax for good public services, they generally say yes. Most people go about their business and rely on elected reps to do the work for which they are being paid innordinate amounts of money. I don't think it is a situation of politicians devils, voters angels, but our politicians have taken on responsibilities. The electoral system limits the amount of influence voters have between elections.

I agree that the system is at fault. The factors determining a single vote in the genereal election are subject to so many different variables as to make it almost impossible for that vote to be cast objectively by everybody. Tribalism, localism, and even ideology need to be factored out to ensure that democracy works for the particular level it is aimed at - in this case the choice of a national government. I have no problem with independents seeking election to the Dail , as a national legislature, but if then the Dail is the instrument from which the government is chosen then I think that there is a major flaw.
The system is causing a dangerous coalescing of powers in a single place.. It makes our politcians corrupt and incompetant, while making our populace appear stupid. My own belief is that no single expert or "great and virtuous leader" can match or outwit the collective intelligence of the Irish people. They just havent properly had the chance to fully express themselves.
The more democratic and free the system, the more prosperous and successful the republic.

Hear hear, Respvblica.

tonys wrote:

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:

tonys wrote:

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:

NO TO FEES!!!

Why?
Are the people who pay for a third level students education and thereby increased lifelong earning potential not entitled to some relief from their costs, I’m thinking in particular of workers who can’t afford to put their own children through third level but nonetheless contribute through their taxes to the benefit of all third level students.

Third level students pay for university education through the taxes they pay on the part time jobs they have to get because of the exorbitant costs of rent, food, transport, books and writing materials. Many students are barely subsisting and to add several thousand euros' worth of expense onto each and every academic year would condemn many to penury and force many to leave the third level sector altogether as it would be unaffordable.

If students have part time jobs on the basis of low earnings, the chances are they don’t pay tax at all. It should not be beyond us to put in place a system whereby payment can be made at a later date as earning flow.

If they're not paying taxes on their earnings then they must be on such a low and measly income that the imposition of several thousands of euro in annual fees would destroy these students abilities to live during college. Payment does come at a later date for university education as earnings flow, it's called PAYE.