Free fees is a good thing for Ireland as a whole. It is a false dichotomy to suggest that there is a choice between free fees and sending workers children to college. There are infinitely more choices than those. The people who want to end school fees are not looking for decent student grants for people from low income families.

*johnfas posted above*

johnfás wrote:

Free Fees = More Graduates

More Graduates = More Educated

More Educated = More Attractive Work Force

More Attractive Work Force = More Attractive to Investors

More Attractive to Investors = More Jobs

More Jobs = Better Economy



There is the 6 point plan in a nutshell.

Exactimundo johnfás. University fees would be a major set-back to the spectacular growth of the third-level sector of Ireland. It would destroy so many hard-gotten gains in terms of third level participation and aspiration across the whole social spectrum.

Absolutely and this really is the case. In my precise group of friends in University I had the great grandson of a former Taoiseach, the son of a senior counsel, the daughter of a consultant surgeon, the daughter of a lady who mans a conveyer belt in Jacobs and the daughter of a shop assistant in Marks and Spencer. That social group could not have existed without the access which was granted to the latter two by virtue of free fees. These are real people not just statistics and I don't need to point out that the daughter of the consultant surgeon got an extention on every essay and left with a 2:2 whereas the other two got high 2:1's and 1st class honours.


That said if the worst came to the worst I might be able to stomach some sort of deferred payment scheme based on future income depending on the terms of the scheme.

tonys wrote:

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:

NO TO FEES!!!

Why?
Are the people who pay for a third level students education and thereby increased lifelong earning potential not entitled to some relief from their costs, I’m thinking in particular of workers who can’t afford to put their own children through third level but nonetheless contribute through their taxes to the benefit of all third level students.

If you feel that bad, go after the horse racers. They're creaming it !

There are too many bright minds who have not a penny. Are you prepared to let these minds burn ? I'm not.

However, this is one area where universality could be looked at for the benefit of less well off. Some amount of means testing may be in order here.

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:

tonys wrote:

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:

NO TO FEES!!!

Why?
Are the people who pay for a third level students education and thereby increased lifelong earning potential not entitled to some relief from their costs, I’m thinking in particular of workers who can’t afford to put their own children through third level but nonetheless contribute through their taxes to the benefit of all third level students.

Third level students pay for university education through the taxes they pay on the part time jobs they have to get because of the exorbitant costs of rent, food, transport, books and writing materials. Many students are barely subsisting and to add several thousand euros' worth of expense onto each and every academic year would condemn many to penury and force many to leave the third level sector altogether as it would be unaffordable.

If students have part time jobs on the basis of low earnings, the chances are they don’t pay tax at all. It should not be beyond us to put in place a system whereby payment can be made at a later date as earning flow.

johnfás wrote:

Free Fees = More Graduates

More Graduates = More Educated

More Educated = More Attractive Work Force

More Attractive Work Force = More Attractive to Investors

More Attractive to Investors = More Jobs

More Jobs = Better Economy



There is the 6 point plan in a nutshell.

While it’s true to say when the economy benefits we all benefit, but as the successful student benefits most I can see no reason why they shouldn’t be asked to make a reasonable contribution.
Fairness, in another nutshell.

johnfás wrote:

Free Fees = More Graduates

More Graduates = More Educated

More Educated = More Attractive Work Force

More Attractive Work Force = More Attractive to Investors

More Attractive to Investors = More Jobs

More Jobs = Better Economy




There is the 6 point plan in a nutshell.

More fecking unemployed and bored Arts and Social Studies Grads fighting with immigrants over jobs in McDonalds and Starbucks if you ask me!

cactus flower wrote:

Free fees is a good thing for Ireland as a whole. It is a false dichotomy to suggest that there is a choice between free fees and sending workers children to college. There are infinitely more choices than those. The people who want to end school fees are not looking for decent student grants for people from low income families.

There is nothing false about the user or beneficiary paying, in whole or in part, for a service.

Do you apply the same logic to everything tonys? National Schools, clean drinking water, use of footpaths etc. I cycle most places, on the road generally. As a result I don't use the footpaths in my local area very often, bit much to ask me to contribute towards their upkeep if you ask me .

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:

tonys wrote:

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:

NO TO FEES!!!

Why?
Are the people who pay for a third level students education and thereby increased lifelong earning potential not entitled to some relief from their costs, I’m thinking in particular of workers who can’t afford to put their own children through third level but nonetheless contribute through their taxes to the benefit of all third level students.

If you feel that bad, go after the horse racers. They're creaming it !

There are too many bright minds who have not a penny. Are you prepared to let these minds burn ? I'm not.

However, this is one area where universality could be looked at for the benefit of less well off. Some amount of means testing may be in order here.

No problem with any paying amount for those who can’t pay, big problem paying any amount for those who can.
I don’t feel bad about it at all, my own kids go to third level and I’m fully aware that I’m getting away with murder on that score, that fact in itself doesn’t bother me, but at whose cost I’m getting away with it does. Personally I’d rather pay with the income ring fenced and be put into first level.

johnfás wrote:

Do you apply the same logic to everything tonys? National Schools, clean drinking water, use of footpaths etc. I cycle most places, on the road generally. As a result I don't use the footpaths in my local area very often, bit much to ask me to contribute towards their upkeep if you ask me .

No I wouldn’t, but where people have a choice, as in going to third level, I would expect some contribution.

FF try to do 3% of what is needed and the whole country goes wailing and screaming. I wish that Willie O Dea chap was not only Taoiseach but King as well and he could tell them all to go fluck themselves.

A few weeks ago the posters here were calling for carbon taxes and aid to Godonlyknowswhereland but now that their fees are going up a few pound they are crying like a banshee. As well as that the 70 year old looks like he could do another 10 years hard labour and he might save a few bob seeing that he didn't for the last 70.

All the happy talk of everybody being intitled to free services is out the window when it comes time to pay for it.

gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme.

tonys wrote:

johnfás wrote:

Free Fees = More Graduates

More Graduates = More Educated

More Educated = More Attractive Work Force

More Attractive Work Force = More Attractive to Investors

More Attractive to Investors = More Jobs

More Jobs = Better Economy



There is the 6 point plan in a nutshell.

While it’s true to say when the economy benefits we all benefit, but as the successful student benefits most I can see no reason why they shouldn’t be asked to make a reasonable contribution.
Fairness, in another nutshell.

There is so much talk about fairness and equity and not penalising the poor from the PDs and FF these days (and like minded people), that I would almost be persuaded to take my little red flag down to the recruiting office and join up to the party.

However, I can think of a much simpler solution to the equity issue, whether its for pensioners with high earnings or graduates benefitting from a degree - raise income tax at the higher earning end.
Cheaper and easier to collect and more logical as it is based on real earnings rather than assumed future earnings.

Student loans systems are just a part of the whole 1990s-2000s personal debt nightmare.

youngdan wrote:

FF try to do 3% of what is needed and the whole country goes wailing and screaming. I wish that Willie O Dea chap was not only Taoiseach but King as well and he could tell them all to go fluck themselves.

A few weeks ago the posters here were calling for carbon taxes and aid to Godonlyknowswhereland but now that their fees are going up a few pound they are crying like a banshee. As well as that the 70 year old looks like he could do another 10 years hard labour and he might save a few bob seeing that he didn't for the last 70.

All the happy talk of everybody being intitled to free services is out the window when it comes time to pay for it.

gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme.

I fully intend to work until I drop youngdan, but the point of a medical card is that its needed by people when they're sick. Do you really wan't to be served down at Wallmart by someone with a zimmer frame, a gurney and a drip?

Are you posing that as a rhetorical question to youngdan?

A few pics from both protests (if the pics cause slow loading times - feel free to remove some). All images are Copyleft.

The proper way to police a protest










This poor lady had to be carried out - hope she has a medical card

Thanks for that Hermes. Some great shots. Any impressions of the day?

Aside from Tonys is everyone on this board in favour of retaining the status quo in relation to third-level fees?

I said above that depending on the scheme brought forward (and it would very much depend on the actual scheme) I could accept a system of deferred payment on the basis of future income.

That said there is a strong argument that people who go to university already pay a deferred fee. People who receive higher education tend to end up in better jobs, more money and thus more tax.

If people need a medical card, which is a noble ideal, then it is time to figure out who is going to pay for it. Do you think free medical care is free. Where is that 17 billion a year going to come from.

The days of borrowing and easy tax revenues from a property bubble are gone

There is a serious refusal to accept reality in Ireland and I look forward to the time when the real cuts are needed, maybe before Christmas. Grinch, grinch, grinch, ho ho ho.

This report agrees too:
http://www.cmec.ca/stats/OECD/EAG2005.en.pdf

Quote :

The fact that the Nordic approach regarding tertiary education provides a stronger incentive to enroll and graduate in tertiary education doesn’t come as a surprise. The perspective of graduating from tertiary education with a mountain of student loans to pay off, with a financial burden that may take a few decades to shed and to defer other goals, is anything but a powerful incentive to enroll in tertiary education. Regrettably, however, Education at a Glance 2008 appears to turn a blind eye on evidence suggesting that there is a growing culture of indebtedness in a number of countries,
brought about by high and increasing tuition fee regimes.

youngdan wrote:

If people need a medical card, which is a noble ideal, then it is time to figure out who is going to pay for it. Do you think free medical care is free. Where is that 17 billion a year going to come from.

The days of borrowing and easy tax revenues from a property bubble are gone

There is a serious refusal to accept reality in Ireland and I look forward to the time when the real cuts are needed, maybe before Christmas. Grinch, grinch, grinch, ho ho ho.

Why?

CF wrote:

Thanks for that Hermes. Some great shots. Any impressions of the day?

No problem.

Loads of impressions. I spent the day talking to people.

The elderly are really pissed. Even if the government had shelved all plans dealing with the medical card issue, yesterday's protest would have been huge. The medical card debacle was just the straw that broke the camel's back. All in all, they're not too impressed with the opposition either. I got a sense of confusion coming from the majority I spoke with, they don't feel represented and cannot figure out how it's come to this.

The students imo were just looking to hit the streets. It's been a massively long time since they last got political. Fair enough, the fees issue was the focal point, but it seemed to me that it was just an excuse to flex their collective muscle. I think they surprised themselves moreso than anyone else.

I think it'd be a mistake to consider either of yesterday's protests to be only about the issues that facilitated them. I also think that the mainstream media will spin these protests as being about singular issues and that those who took part, did so, merely out of self interest. The politicians will push this line too. Big mistake imo.

The students in particular should be a major cause of concern. Yesterday they were in good spirits and getting into the buzz of exercising their rights. But, as I said, it wasn't about fees for most of those I spoke with. Their numbers totally took the Gardaí by surprise. Imagine if that size of a protest decided to rampage.

We're at a tipping point and the authorities ought to take notice and stop paying lip service.

Some more pics here.

Hermes wrote:

CF wrote:

Thanks for that Hermes. Some great shots. Any impressions of the day?

No problem.

Loads of impressions. I spent the day talking to people.

The elderly are really pissed. Even if the government had shelved all plans dealing with the medical card issue, yesterday's protest would have been huge. The medical card debacle was just the straw that broke the camel's back. All in all, they're not too impressed with the opposition either. I got a sense of confusion coming from the majority I spoke with, they don't feel represented and cannot figure out how it's come to this.

The students imo were just looking to hit the streets. It's been a massively long time since they last got political. Fair enough, the fees issue was the focal point, but it seemed to me that it was just an excuse to flex their collective muscle. I think they surprised themselves moreso than anyone else.

I think it'd be a mistake to consider either of yesterday's protests to be only about the issues that facilitated them. I also think that the mainstream media will spin these protests as being about singular issues and that those who took part, did so, merely out of self interest. The politicians will push this line too. Big mistake imo.

The students in particular should be a major cause of concern. Yesterday they were in good spirits and getting into the buzz of exercising their rights. But, as I said, it wasn't about fees for most of those I spoke with. Their numbers totally took the Gardaí by surprise. Imagine if that size of a protest decided to rampage.

We're at a tipping point and the authorities ought to take notice and stop paying lip service.

Some more pics here.

From the RTE coverage, it looked like a protest mainly by the well-heeled - middle classes under a serious squeeze, as we have talked about here quite a bit. Looks more mixed from your photos and johnfas's. Not suprised that no great confidence was shown in the opposition, but FG is getting a lift out of this (although I can't see that they would do much different).
Is anybody else?

Excellent Hermes. I love the levitating Garda.