I'll admit that I used to sleep during my lectures about the Common Agricultural Policy. However, one of the aims of CAP is to provide food security for Europe.

Define food security, keeping French farmers on the gravy train?

I guess the EU is socialist after all; food security always struck me as a very good policy, but a very good excuse for needless protectionism. I think it gets bad stick becaude Mussolini did it (with wheat).

johnfás wrote:

I'll admit that I used to sleep during my lectures about the Common Agricultural Policy. However, one of the aims of CAP is to provide food security for Europe.

thats the official sane sounding reason - the real reason is French domestic policy and is why De Gaulle kept the Brits (and us by default) out of the EU until French had got the Germans signed to pay for it.

youngdan wrote:

I will have a listen later on but in the meantime what is the gist of their and your point of view. I see they mention European biofuels. Here this is the reason for the food problem. The farmers are subsidised to produce piss poor fuel that takes 70% of it's energy to produce. So the price of wheat has rocketed. This was the desired and easily seen outcome, otherwise they would copy the Brazilian where they take something like 20% to produce the energy.

The ones I listened to basically said that there is a big food supply challenge ahead due to energy crisis, biofuels, exploding population, water shortages and climate change. They differ in how optimistic or bleak their views are and some say we will be fine while others forecast a rocky road indeed. I have them on the iPod and have flicked between them.

My view is that Ireland should be taking food security issues seriously and should be promoting a concerted EU approach. I also don't think non-EU citizens or companies controlled by non-EU citizens should be allowed to buy Irish land. I think that they are allowed to buy land with the abolition a couple of years ago of s.45 of the Land Act 1965. I am sceptical of WTO agreements or other international treaties that serve Monsanto et al and which could compromise our food security and land ownership.

Grain was exported out of Ireland in the past while Irish people starved. Could it happen again if the EU stepped into to enforce international trade agreements? I doubt that is a real political possibility but I expect the men with the nukes will tell us what to do when push comes to shove.

Why do you think that it is not a real political possibility. When the WTO decide that only non reproducing seeds must be used in Ireland do you think that Magic Arse will grow a spine. They will accept anything because they are only out for themselves. That reminds me, does Magic Arse have a 16 year old daughter. What are the chances she too will be such a literary genius that someone will pay her 1 million Euros for her first manuscript. What disdain they must holds for the gobshites that vote for them

Well, I think that the history of modern democracies is that once the effects of policies become very unpalateable to the populace Governments do react, even against big money interests. Ultimately, the People do have the power, so unless the EU was under threat the EU government would act in the best interests of the EU populace including Ireland. We might also have some chance of defending ourselves witht he EU's assistance, including against the swarming innocent unarmed starving masses.

The crux of the issue is that I think the government cares nothing about the people. Most politicians care about who is giving them money and who has the dirt on them. Bertie is only concerned with Bertie and Hillary with her 109 million dollars is only concerned about herself. Maybe a few like Tony Gregory and the late Jim Kemmy really cared for their constituents but to think that a big-wig in Strazborg cares about Sligo is foolish

Zhou_Enlai wrote:

Well, I think that the history of modern democracies is that once the effects of policies become very unpalateable to the populace Governments do react, even against big money interests. Ultimately, the People do have the power, so unless the EU was under threat the EU government would act in the best interests of the EU populace including Ireland. We might also have some chance of defending ourselves witht he EU's assistance, including against the swarming innocent unarmed starving masses.

I think our glorious leaders would be very busy defending themselves from us, their own homegrown swarm of unarmed starving masses.
It does appear that biofuels and meat eating should be out and population control, in. The alternatives of war, bird flu and mass starvation are generally unappealing.

Back here they will be fully armed. I see an article by Barton Biggs who is a famous money manager New York Times. Sunday, April 6, 2008 ... Stockpiling. Your search for BIGGS, BARTON M in Stockpiling returned 1 articles ...
topics.nytimes.com/.../s/stockpiling/index.html?query=BIGGS,%20BARTON%20M&field=per&match=exact - 39k - Cached - Similar pages
Mor

If things come to the worst I will be serving turtle soup and all are invited www.reuters.com/news/video?videoId=79563&feedType=VideoRSS&feedName=Environment&rpc=23&sp... - 26k

youngdan wrote:

Back here they will be fully armed. I see an article by Barton Biggs who is a famous money manager New York Times. Sunday, April 6, 2008 ... Stockpiling. Your search for BIGGS, BARTON M in Stockpiling returned 1 articles ...
topics.nytimes.com/.../s/stockpiling/index.html?query=BIGGS,%20BARTON%20M&field=per&match=exact - 39k - Cached - Similar pages
Mor

Could not open it youngdan. What are they stockpiling, is it cans of baked beans?

This will not help us pay the grocery bills. Should we expect a reaction tomorrow?

http://www.breakingnews.ie/business/?jp=MHOJGBQLGBMH&rss=javascript1

www.climateark.org/shared/reader/welcome.aspx?linkid=96250 - 40k This might work. It is not what he says but who is saying it. For the last 3 weeks the markets are holding up despite very bad news. This has got to end soon

905 wrote:

Define food security, keeping French farmers on the gravy train?

Part of the idea is to keep prices high so that Europeans continue to farm and buy their own agricultural products - rather than importing from outside the Community and thus retaining the productivity in times of crisis.

That's only part of the reasoning of course and French politics does have a great deal to do with the bulk of the policy.

johnfás wrote:

905 wrote:

Define food security, keeping French farmers on the gravy train?

Part of the idea is to keep prices high so that Europeans continue to farm and buy their own agricultural products - rather than importing from outside the Community and thus retaining the productivity in times of crisis.

That's only part of the reasoning of course and French politics does have a great deal to do with the bulk of the policy.

I saw a Prime Time documentary programme on this a good few years ago where farmers in Greece and Spain were encouraged to destroy rather than harvest their crops of tobacco and grapes for wine because there was too much on the market and the Commission ? Parliament ? wanted the stuff destroyed because it would have weakened prices ... feckin nutjobs.

Auditor #9 wrote:

johnfás wrote:

905 wrote:

Define food security, keeping French farmers on the gravy train?

Part of the idea is to keep prices high so that Europeans continue to farm and buy their own agricultural products - rather than importing from outside the Community and thus retaining the productivity in times of crisis.

That's only part of the reasoning of course and French politics does have a great deal to do with the bulk of the policy.

I saw a Prime Time documentary programme on this a good few years ago where farmers in Greece and Spain were encouraged to destroy rather than harvest their crops of tobacco and grapes for wine because there was too much on the market and the Commission ? Parliament ? wanted the stuff destroyed because it would have weakened prices ... feckin nutjobs.

Well we all know what they did in the 1980s - when we quite literally had food mountains and wine lakes. Very wasteful.

johnfás wrote:

Auditor #9 wrote:

johnfás wrote:

905 wrote:

Define food security, keeping French farmers on the gravy train?

Part of the idea is to keep prices high so that Europeans continue to farm and buy their own agricultural products - rather than importing from outside the Community and thus retaining the productivity in times of crisis.

That's only part of the reasoning of course and French politics does have a great deal to do with the bulk of the policy.

I saw a Prime Time documentary programme on this a good few years ago where farmers in Greece and Spain were encouraged to destroy rather than harvest their crops of tobacco and grapes for wine because there was too much on the market and the Commission ? Parliament ? wanted the stuff destroyed because it would have weakened prices ... feckin nutjobs.

Well we all know what they did in the 1980s - when we quite literally had food mountains and wine lakes. Very wasteful.

It is the cruel irony of farming that if you have a good harvest year, prices go down and you can make less money - or none. Still the Common Agricultural Policy would want a bit of explaining to me - perhaps Kate P could help out when she gets back.

This should be of interest to this thread.

And this
Indonesia curbs its rice exports

Indonesia has imposed controls over rice exports as Asian states battle food supply concerns which have been caused by soaring global prices.

The country, South East Asia's largest rice consumer, brought in the rules to stop farmers selling crops at export prices which were double local prices.

I was driving today and on the radio news there were reports that the big wholesale store Costco were seeing a big increase in buying of rice and flour and they of course put it down to shortages elsewhere. What might really put the cat among the pidgens now would be talk of a truckers strike which I feel is likely

Oil price at 119 today - will knock onto food production and distribution costs.

This was all touched on last week in the G7 talks in Washington, but where is the urgency?

A concerted effort could probably do a lot to avert the mass famine that is coming down the tracks.

Don't panic Cactus they were able to feed 8 million in Ireland on spuds till the blight hit. Let the Chinese serve curry chips and everybody is happy.

A 47% increase in the price of rice is massive.

Is there such a thing as "Peak Food"? If so, how are China and Indonesia fixed?

Is there worse in store for North Korea which was previously short of rice?

As Graham Taylor might say, "Do I not like that!".

I think there are going to be very serious times ahead, in the very near future.

Folks don't realise how much oil controls everything. It's not only the stuff that we stick in cars and busses to get us to work.

Just examining its association with food we have:

Planting and or cultivating food.
Harvesting food.
Food storage.
Transporting food.
Marketing food.
Packaging food.
Cooking food.
An ingredient in most processed foods.

And I've probably left out many important associations.

When a problem develops with either food or oil production we get a bootstrapping mechanism where both magnify the effects of each other and begin a downward spiral into the abyss. Unless coherent action is taken.

Personally speaking, I think it's time to go in search of paddles and nose plugs.

Auditor #9 wrote:

And this
Indonesia curbs its rice exports

Indonesia has imposed controls over rice exports as Asian states battle food supply concerns which have been caused by soaring global prices.

The country, South East Asia's largest rice consumer, brought in the rules to stop farmers selling crops at export prices which were double local prices.

Plus, aggregate demand for rice in rapidly-prospering China is rising sharply. This means that rice that was once exported is being kept to be sold at home. We'll all be scrounging for rice in the West the way things are going.

Look here.

Good article on this. Interesting point too on the inherent lag time involved in ramping up global food production.