Nationalisation Watch / Govt. rethinking 3.5 billion bailout for the banks?

Who's your man talking about brian Goggin and saying he shouldn't resign next summer he should go now.

Noonan had detailed analysis of what the shareholdings by the government meant - ordinary and preference shares. Didn't hear him fully but I believe he said the Govt. needed to buy ordinary AIB and BOI shares or else the 2 billion it would be putting in to each would need to be in preference shares which means this ::::: they would effecftively be nationalised anyway because the Govt. would have more than 50% of the shares.

If they bought ordinary shares they would lose them all in a bank collapse (?)

Is this a Finance Bill amendment ?

Kathleen Lynch on now from Cork - yeah ?

She's praising her bank manager for giving her a loan when she needed it to go back and re-run an election. "Lovely people"

She asks: "What's the difference between Enron and Anglo Irish Bank ?"

Quote :

Is this a Finance Bill amendment ?

Sorry don't know

"People who put houses mortgages cars etc. at risk are about to ride off into the sunset with big payout & payoff and Golden Handshake

Rody Molloy
Neary
Seanie

and the people who are affected are the ones who will eventually pick up the tab for this and who will eventually be the ones who will pick the economy up"

"An investigation is the least we can ask for "

Audi wrote

Quote :

Well it looks like the Oppostion are opposing - could this hinge on Greens and independents ? or back benchers on either side ?

I've switched over to the Obama inauguration (rather unpatriotically, you could say) but re your comment above, it has never been any other way. But the Greens, judging by Eamon Ryan's presentation this morning, don't look like they're for turning on this. Even if he did look like he'd rather be anywhere else, doing anything else. Even if he clearly didn't believe it himself.

Wonderful benediction in Washington.

"This is not an ordinary bank the likes of which i'd go to - this is a betting shop where people went and lost money ... and we're going to allow them to walk off into the sunset "

"We are nationalising a BIG DEBT"

"We need to know exactly what we are doing"

Go girl

Eamon Ryan seems to be on a different planet, she is right there.

Did Gormley get out of bed today? I missed him if he did.

Arthur Morgan again supporting the Amendment "Which is excellent "

What amendment

Ryan was there, Gormley wasn't so far. Come on John

maybe Gormley is abstaining ?

Morgan wants to know if CAB is going to be called in or whether Seanie will pay back any of his 87 million loan.

"Why not the Garda fraud squad ?"

Is the Amendment about this - are they going to put in a piece of legislation to cover this type of thing ?

Morgan asking the Minister to comment on the Auditors - he says there's an obvious case of corruption going on here.

On the overall content of the Bill he says:

"Right Move - WRONG BANK"

Auditor #9 wrote:

maybe Gormley is abstaining ?

Morgan wants to know if CAB is going to be called in or whether Seanie will pay back any of his 87 million loan.

"Why not the Garda fraud squad ?"

Is the Amendment about this - are they going to put in a piece of legislation to cover this type of thing ?

All this "Seanie" and "Anglo" stuff is very



Bucket please.

Ciaran Lynch, Cork South Central - Labour

"Tomorrow morning every man woman and child are going to wake up owning this bank ... and maybe every child born tomorrow are going to end up owning the liabilities of this bank into the future"

"Minister - if this bank were a car, I would like to look into the logbook, I would like to look into the [] and I would certainly like to look under the bonnet ... "

Class

"What we are buying is a banger at forecourt prices .."

Lynch for MN award !

cactus flower wrote:

Eamon Ryan seems to be on a different planet, she is right there.

Did Gormley get out of bed today? I missed him if he did.

Can't imagine the average Green Party member being at all happy with this.

Auditor, is there any way we could youtube a bit of this?

Don't know this fella but Lenihan had a Doogle-like look on his face there for a second.

Poor bastard.

That Lynch woman and Charlie Flanagan don't seem to know as much as the others. A lot of spouting off. S Fitz is certainly the punchbag du jour. It must be excruciating to have things like that said about you in the Dail. It's no wonder he took a holiday.


On the issue of regulation, I read somethign interesting that suggested as follows:

1. The more technical the running of the country becomes the less law is about justice.
2. Justice is replaced by the over-riding need to preserve order.
3. The state replaces the courts in administering justice.
4. As the state seeks to regulate everything in detail the specialist parts of the state administer the law.

This is true in matters environmental, planning, regulation, employment, tax related and so forth.

The writer in analysing the this change in the law and the triumph of technique over "justice" also said that as far as the technical man is concerned a law which is not applied is not a law. That is why the state through specialist agencies takes control of the administration of these laws.

So, we have a technical law (financial regulation) which should be applied technically and enforced by the state in order to facilitate the technical way of life. The application of the law has been deficient. The law itself might also have been deficient. It is further possible that the system to which it relates, the financial system, might also be findamentally flawed in design.

The solution that will ultimately be arrived at will be a technical solution and those that adopt the solution with most credibility will ultimately prevail if they can keep their ship afloat in the meantime. It is quite likely that the solution will not be arrived at in Ireland so Ireland's goal is to stay afloat and in as good shape as possible until such a solution is ascertainable.

The main aspect to staying afloat is to preserve credibility. Things which can help this are as follows:

1. Expert endorsement. We need to wow those with influence with our actions and our plans. This is a matter for economic and technical experts to design and to persuade on.

2. We need the unity of purpose to implement our plans. There are a number of parties which must participate: The political classes, the elites/academics/commentators, the social partners, the voters/masses and the media. If we show that we are up for the cup then we will gain in credibility. That makes this first and foremost a propaganda war.

I am all for Dail debates whether they harm us or not. I don't think this one is doing us any good as most junior speakers seem intent on generating a soundbyte while attacking the integrity of bankers. The Taoiseach's letter to the oppostion has fallen on deaf ears. That's democracy for you. Long may it live.

Squire wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

Eamon Ryan seems to be on a different planet, she is right there.

Did Gormley get out of bed today? I missed him if he did.

Can't imagine the average Green Party member being at all happy with this.

I think that quite a few of them, like Mr. Gormley himself, might be under the wrong impression that this is nothing to do with them.

cactus flower wrote:

Auditor, is there any way we could youtube a bit of this?

Good question. I'll have to download it if it's archived, cut it up with an editing program, upload to youtube.

Good little project for me and the site as a whole indeed.

This Labour fella is talking about larceny in the hundreds of millions and this whole thing is sounding more like a Tribunal than a Dáil vote.

Can it go through with this level of gravity from people ? I suppose it can.

cactus I certainly couldn't do the youtubing today - I don't have the editing program

Zhou said

Quote :

The main aspect to staying afloat is to preserve credibility

Well I think that the main aspect to staying afloat is having a boat that isn't holed.

The idea that what is essentially spin, like the Guarantee, can get us out of this I don't believe. Mr. Fitzpatrick thought that creating an appearance that every thing was O.K. was all that mattered.

Its being pointed out that the only people the Minister consulted on the Bill were the Directors of Anglo Irish Bank...

"The banks are not the economy" he says rightly

"Anglo can not provide the functions that normally-functioning banks provide .. so our focus should be on the healthy banks - Anglo (sic) and the other one, Bank of Ireland "

Something about the european fund ... ???

Auditor #9 wrote:

This Labour fella is talking about larceny in the hundreds of millions and this whole thing is sounding more like a Tribunal than a Dáil vote.

Can it go through with this level of gravity from people ? I suppose it can.

cactus I certainly couldn't do the youtubing today - I don't have the editing program

Lets talk about that another day so

The Amendment is about finding out what's in the Bank - is that what Ruairi Quinn is saying ?

Quinn appealing to learning for the future by asking Lenihan to let Labour inspectors have a look ...

He says the other banks' market share prices are AT PERIL because of this. Quinn acknowledges Lenihan's job is not easy.

But it is Lenihan's responsiblity to dole out the facts.