johnfás wrote:

link?

Here: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0917/1221599423978.html

thanks

johnfás wrote:

thanks

my pleasure

johnfás wrote:

link?

Here. From the article:

"A senior Garda source said the device comprised a drinks bottle filled with petrol which was attached to a battery and a clock. It was also attached to a can of paint, which would have sprayed out had the device exploded.

But sources said that while all components for a viable device were present, the ensemble was not wired properly and, therefore, could not have exploded."

Incompetent as well as dangerously stupid - unfortunately, competence is only a matter of practice, while dangerously stupid remains. Whoever planted that device clearly intended a paint bomb - unfortunately, one that would have sprayed paint mixed with burning petrol. Nice, given the way paint sticks.

ibis wrote:

Hermes wrote:

I honestly dunno if a political party can fix what ails us, if they take part in the current system. The devil pays a good price for souls.

If we must beat the system from within, it's my opinion that only a mass of independents could come close to achieving it. Politics would be slower without party politics, but it'd be fairer. Such a system would be more honest.

There I completely agree. Even the outlawing of the Party Whip system would be a start.

I spose the question to ask here is, how do we achieve it?

I can think of loads of scenarios whereby it'd be the result but I honestly cannot envision the spark that'd ignite any of them. Come up with a solution to that puzzle and you can exclude me in, in pushing it.

ibis wrote:

johnfás wrote:

link?

Here. From the article:

"A senior Garda source said the device comprised a drinks bottle filled with petrol which was attached to a battery and a clock. It was also attached to a can of paint, which would have sprayed out had the device exploded.

But sources said that while all components for a viable device were present, the ensemble was not wired properly and, therefore, could not have exploded."

Incompetent as well as dangerously stupid - unfortunately, competence is only a matter of practice, while dangerously stupid remains. Whoever planted that device clearly intended a paint bomb - unfortunately, one that would have sprayed paint mixed with burning petrol. Nice, given the way paint sticks.

Don't forget that the Gardaí described this 'bomb/device' as viable. Indeed the army blew it up. Why, if they all knew it wasn't viable? Why not preserve the evidence like they're supposed to and check it for prints, etc.

Hermes wrote:

ibis wrote:

johnfás wrote:

link?

Here. From the article:

"A senior Garda source said the device comprised a drinks bottle filled with petrol which was attached to a battery and a clock. It was also attached to a can of paint, which would have sprayed out had the device exploded.

But sources said that while all components for a viable device were present, the ensemble was not wired properly and, therefore, could not have exploded."

Incompetent as well as dangerously stupid - unfortunately, competence is only a matter of practice, while dangerously stupid remains. Whoever planted that device clearly intended a paint bomb - unfortunately, one that would have sprayed paint mixed with burning petrol. Nice, given the way paint sticks.

Don't forget that the Gardaí described this 'bomb/device' as viable. Indeed the army blew it up. Why, if they all knew it wasn't viable? Why not preserve the evidence like they're supposed to and check it for prints, etc.

Actually, the device was "made safe", I think - and I live close enough that I should have have heard them blowing it up!

Hermes wrote:

ibis wrote:

Hermes wrote:

I honestly dunno if a political party can fix what ails us, if they take part in the current system. The devil pays a good price for souls.

If we must beat the system from within, it's my opinion that only a mass of independents could come close to achieving it. Politics would be slower without party politics, but it'd be fairer. Such a system would be more honest.

There I completely agree. Even the outlawing of the Party Whip system would be a start.

I spose the question to ask here is, how do we achieve it?

I can think of loads of scenarios whereby it'd be the result but I honestly cannot envision the spark that'd ignite any of them. Come up with a solution to that puzzle and you can exclude me in, in pushing it.

You'd have publicise the issue, both extensively and intensively, to make it a "live issue". Sadly...you'd then need a party to take it on, at least in the sense of allowing TDs to "vote their conscience" and "give back representation to local representatives"...and so on.

Quote :

Irish Army bomb disposal unit carried out a controlled explosion on the device, which was discovered near the entrance to the offices of Shell E&P Ireland in central Dublin on Monday night.

LINK.

Hermes wrote:

Quote :

Irish Army bomb disposal unit carried out a controlled explosion on the device, which was discovered near the entrance to the offices of Shell E&P Ireland in central Dublin on Monday night.

LINK.

I thought I'd seen that myself - but even that article says that the device was then handed over. I'm not sure how much one is supposed to have left when one carries out a controlled explosion on bottle of petrol...

How is Maura Harrington's health by the way?

ibis wrote:

Hermes wrote:

Quote :

Irish Army bomb disposal unit carried out a controlled explosion on the device, which was discovered near the entrance to the offices of Shell E&P Ireland in central Dublin on Monday night.

LINK.

I thought I'd seen that myself - but even that article says that the device was then handed over. I'm not sure how much one is supposed to have left when one carries out a controlled explosion on bottle of petrol...

That's it exactly. Most reports, particularly the earlier ones, say that a controlled explosion was carried out. In fairness, unless the bottle was made of glass, you're not going to be examining much of it or the petrol - yet both, if left intact could have been traced to point of purchase, not to mention the possibility of prints being on the bottle.

On top of that, if they could see that the 'bomb' was simple in design, why not simply disconnect the battery, a child in second year with a basic understanding of science could have defused it safely (even if it were hooked up properly). Instead, the evidence/'bomb' was destroyed, with maybe the paint can being left somewhat intact, burned wire and maybe a few discreet pieces of battery. The video evidence from around the area is potentially very valuable, but if it isn't, the Gardaí have just destroyed the rest. There are questions that need to be asked here...

905 wrote:

How is Maura Harrington's health by the way?

She's not the best I'm afraid. I've not heard much in the last 24 hours. But I have heard that she's starting to look very dehydrated and she's becoming more inactive. She's damaging herself at this point (imo), tis taking its toll. I just wish it'd end.

Hermes wrote:

ibis wrote:

Hermes wrote:

Quote :

Irish Army bomb disposal unit carried out a controlled explosion on the device, which was discovered near the entrance to the offices of Shell E&P Ireland in central Dublin on Monday night.

LINK.

I thought I'd seen that myself - but even that article says that the device was then handed over. I'm not sure how much one is supposed to have left when one carries out a controlled explosion on bottle of petrol...

That's it exactly. Most reports, particularly the earlier ones, say that a controlled explosion was carried out. In fairness, unless the bottle was made of glass, you're not going to be examining much of it or the petrol - yet both, if left intact could have been traced to point of purchase, not to mention the possibility of prints being on the bottle.

On top of that, if they could see that the 'bomb' was simple in design, why not simply disconnect the battery, a child in second year with a basic understanding of science could have defused it safely. Instead, the evidence/'bomb' was destroyed, with maybe the paint can being left somewhat intact, burned wire and maybe a few discreet pieces of battery. The video evidence from around the area is potentially very valuable, but if it isn't, the Gardaí have just destroyed the rest. There are questions that need to be asked here...

One of which, I'm sorry to say, is why those on the S2S side (generally, that is) are so keen to downplay the incident.

Let's leave aside for the moment the question of who did this. I don't think it was either S2S or Shell - as I said before, both of them have too much to lose. The idea that it was planted by the Gardai, or that there never was a device, doesn't deserve much more consideration, for exactly the same reasons.

That leaves us with the fact that someone put an explosive device on the railings in Leeson Street. That is not a small matter, and the downplaying and finger-pointing, while understandable, remains highly discreditable. This is not, first and foremost, a PR issue, and it is being treated as one.

ibis wrote:

Hermes wrote:

ibis wrote:

Hermes wrote:

Quote :

Irish Army bomb disposal unit carried out a controlled explosion on the device, which was discovered near the entrance to the offices of Shell E&P Ireland in central Dublin on Monday night.

LINK.

I thought I'd seen that myself - but even that article says that the device was then handed over. I'm not sure how much one is supposed to have left when one carries out a controlled explosion on bottle of petrol...

That's it exactly. Most reports, particularly the earlier ones, say that a controlled explosion was carried out. In fairness, unless the bottle was made of glass, you're not going to be examining much of it or the petrol - yet both, if left intact could have been traced to point of purchase, not to mention the possibility of prints being on the bottle.

On top of that, if they could see that the 'bomb' was simple in design, why not simply disconnect the battery, a child in second year with a basic understanding of science could have defused it safely. Instead, the evidence/'bomb' was destroyed, with maybe the paint can being left somewhat intact, burned wire and maybe a few discreet pieces of battery. The video evidence from around the area is potentially very valuable, but if it isn't, the Gardaí have just destroyed the rest. There are questions that need to be asked here...

One of which, I'm sorry to say, is why those on the S2S side (generally, that is) are so keen to downplay the incident.

Let's leave aside for the moment the question of who did this. I don't think it was either S2S or Shell - as I said before, both of them have too much to lose. The idea that it was planted by the Gardai, or that there never was a device, doesn't deserve much more consideration, for exactly the same reasons.

That leaves us with the fact that someone put an explosive device on the railings in Leeson Street. That is not a small matter, and the downplaying and finger-pointing, while understandable, remains highly discreditable. This is not, first and foremost, a PR issue, and it is being treated as one.

S2S are not keen to put too much thought or comment into this as they rightly believe that it's detracting from the hunger strike.

The product of any bomb maker is a unique product, tis like a fingerprint in itself. This one was not viable, which suggests two possibilities:

i. The bomb maker was new to his calling or very close to being new.
ii. The bomb maker knew that the device was not viable and just wanted to cause an outcry.

In i. we have a scenario whereby a 'newby' left a device in a very secure location - he or she is obviously not the sharpest tool in the box and should have been placed under arrest already.

In ii. we have a scenario, whereby this bomb maker's device is recognised and the Gardaí should know where the rest of this bomb maker's goods have been used, gang related stuff, etc. Fair enough, the gardaí probably wouldn't want to put too much into the public domain at this stage, but in all fairness, it wouldn't have cost them much to announce that they didn't believe that the device came from S2S.

On top of this, they blew up the evidence, when they obviously shouldn't have.

I'd say there's quite reasonable grounds to query the behaviour of the gardaí in this and that includes including them in on the suspect list.

You're very right, with regard to priorities, PR does not top the list. It doesn't make S2S's PR list at all. Shell have used it for PR and the Gardaí, it seems, thus far, have only been involved in the PR mechanism too.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/bolivians-strongly-back-morales-in-referendum-891034.html

Someone raised the question of whether the Morales recent referendum was to back nationalisation of gas and oil, or whether that was proposed for a future referendum. This link makes it clear that Morales government has already nationalised gas, and that the referendum was to look for support for his government. It was won, two hostile governors were voted out and even in the "secession" states he polled well.

The future referendum is to look for support for land reform, of a type similar to the Irish Land Commission, in favour of breaking up large land holdings and greater access of peasants to land.

Hermes wrote:

ibis wrote:

Hermes wrote:

ibis wrote:

Hermes wrote:

Quote :

Irish Army bomb disposal unit carried out a controlled explosion on the device, which was discovered near the entrance to the offices of Shell E&P Ireland in central Dublin on Monday night.

LINK.

I thought I'd seen that myself - but even that article says that the device was then handed over. I'm not sure how much one is supposed to have left when one carries out a controlled explosion on bottle of petrol...

That's it exactly. Most reports, particularly the earlier ones, say that a controlled explosion was carried out. In fairness, unless the bottle was made of glass, you're not going to be examining much of it or the petrol - yet both, if left intact could have been traced to point of purchase, not to mention the possibility of prints being on the bottle.

On top of that, if they could see that the 'bomb' was simple in design, why not simply disconnect the battery, a child in second year with a basic understanding of science could have defused it safely. Instead, the evidence/'bomb' was destroyed, with maybe the paint can being left somewhat intact, burned wire and maybe a few discreet pieces of battery. The video evidence from around the area is potentially very valuable, but if it isn't, the Gardaí have just destroyed the rest. There are questions that need to be asked here...

One of which, I'm sorry to say, is why those on the S2S side (generally, that is) are so keen to downplay the incident.

Let's leave aside for the moment the question of who did this. I don't think it was either S2S or Shell - as I said before, both of them have too much to lose. The idea that it was planted by the Gardai, or that there never was a device, doesn't deserve much more consideration, for exactly the same reasons.

That leaves us with the fact that someone put an explosive device on the railings in Leeson Street. That is not a small matter, and the downplaying and finger-pointing, while understandable, remains highly discreditable. This is not, first and foremost, a PR issue, and it is being treated as one.

S2S are not keen to put too much thought or comment into this as they rightly believe that it's detracting from the hunger strike.

The product of any bomb maker is a unique product, tis like a fingerprint in itself. This one was not viable, which suggests two possibilities:

i. The bomb maker was new to his calling or very close to being new.
ii. The bomb maker knew that the device was not viable and just wanted to cause an outcry.

In i. we have a scenario whereby a 'newby' left a device in a very secure location - he or she is obviously not the sharpest tool in the box and should have been placed under arrest already.

In ii. we have a scenario, whereby this bomb maker's device is recognised and the Gardaí should know where the rest of this bomb maker's goods have been used, gang related stuff, etc. Fair enough, the gardaí probably wouldn't want to put too much into the public domain at this stage, but in all fairness, it wouldn't have cost them much to announce that they didn't believe that the device came from S2S.

On top of this, they blew up the evidence, when they obviously shouldn't have.

I'd say there's quite reasonable grounds to query the behaviour of the gardaí in this and that includes including them in on the suspect list.

You're very right, with regard to priorities, PR does not top the list. It doesn't make S2S's PR list at all. Shell have used it for PR and the Gardaí, it seems, thus far, have only been involved in the PR mechanism too.

The S2S and other local opposition group did not ignore or downplay the incident Ibis, they both made prompt and thorough statements to press and television condemning it and disassociating themselves from it. The allegation of downplaying and PR is a totally unwarranted slur. The news report I linked didn't seem to muster the degree of outrage and fury against S2S that might have been hoped for by some and made suggested that the device was non-functional.

There is a clear contradiction between the original Garda statement that the "device" (plastic bag containing an alarm clock, bottle of petrol and can of paint, in some way linked but not in any functional way) was viable and the news report I linked that reported a source as saying it was not set up to work. If it had been established that it was safe, why was it then destroyed, as it provided both forensic evidence and as Hermes says the possibility of tracing the purchase of the objects?

Anyone who hasn't read the report of the Morris Tribunal will find it linked here. The details of the instigation by a small number of Gardai of bomb making and planting of bullets and "devices" would be hilarious if the matter wasn't so serious.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/special/2004/morris/index.pdf

With respect to the excellent work done by many Gardai, I seem to recall that interception of the huge car bomb stopped a short while before Omagh
was achieved by one of the Gardai named in the Morrison report.

cactus flower wrote:

The S2S and other local opposition group did not ignore or downplay the incident Ibis, they both made prompt and thorough statements to press and television condemning it and disassociating themselves from it. The allegation of downplaying and PR is a totally unwarranted slur. The news report I linked didn't seem to muster the degree of outrage and fury against S2S that might have been hoped for by some and made suggested that the device was non-functional.

There is a clear contradiction between the original Garda statement that the "device" (plastic bag containing an alarm clock, bottle of petrol and can of paint, in some way linked but not in any functional way) was viable and the news report I linked that reported a source as saying it was not set up to work. If it had been established that it was safe, why was it then destroyed, as it provided both forensic evidence and as Hermes says the possibility of tracing the purchase of the objects?

Anyone who hasn't read the report of the Morris Tribunal will find it linked here. The details of the instigation by a small number of Gardai of bomb making and planting of bullets and "devices" would be hilarious if the matter wasn't so serious.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/special/2004/morris/index.pdf

With respect to the excellent work done by many Gardai, I seem to recall that interception of the huge car bomb stopped a short while before Omagh was achieved by one of the Gardai named in the Morrison report.

You are bothered by the things that bother you, and I am bothered by the things that bother me. I don't have a worldview that allows me to dismiss the incident as probably the work of the Gardai, and I do consider what S2S et al are doing as downplaying - although I can understand the reasons as given by Hermes. Contradictions in initial media reports are irrelevant.

ibis wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

The S2S and other local opposition group did not ignore or downplay the incident Ibis, they both made prompt and thorough statements to press and television condemning it and disassociating themselves from it. The allegation of downplaying and PR is a totally unwarranted slur. The news report I linked didn't seem to muster the degree of outrage and fury against S2S that might have been hoped for by some and made suggested that the device was non-functional.

There is a clear contradiction between the original Garda statement that the "device" (plastic bag containing an alarm clock, bottle of petrol and can of paint, in some way linked but not in any functional way) was viable and the news report I linked that reported a source as saying it was not set up to work. If it had been established that it was safe, why was it then destroyed, as it provided both forensic evidence and as Hermes says the possibility of tracing the purchase of the objects?

Anyone who hasn't read the report of the Morris Tribunal will find it linked here. The details of the instigation by a small number of Gardai of bomb making and planting of bullets and "devices" would be hilarious if the matter wasn't so serious.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/special/2004/morris/index.pdf

With respect to the excellent work done by many Gardai, I seem to recall that interception of the huge car bomb stopped a short while before Omagh was achieved by one of the Gardai named in the Morrison report.

You are bothered by the things that bother you, and I am bothered by the things that bother me. I don't have a worldview that allows me to dismiss the incident as probably the work of the Gardai, and I do consider what S2S et al are doing as downplaying - although I can understand the reasons as given by Hermes. Contradictions in initial media reports are irrelevant.

What do you want S2S to do Ibis? In what way have they down-played anything?

I would be very bothered by anyone planting a viable bomb, so at least in one respect I assume we see something in the same way.

Just heard on Newstalk that the Solitaire is heading for Rotterdam. Get the pan on there Naoise

SeathrúnCeitinn wrote:

Just heard on Newstalk that the Solitaire is heading for Rotterdam. Get the pan on there Naoise

Jaysus, that's good, and may buy 6 months to sort this mess out.

Quote :

Shell Ireland has announced that the ship which was intended be used in laying the controversial Corrib Gas Offshore Pipeline is to be moved from Killybegs in Donegal to a port in the UK for repair work.
Equipment on board 'The Solitaire' was accidently damaged off the Mayo coast last Wednesday, an hour before it was due to begin laying the first section of the pipeline.

RTE News

Coming up !

Damn, that fry looks good. It should be on the Art thread.

I have been alerted to an important development in the ongoing Shell to Sea Campaign in Co. Mayo. Maura Harrington, a school teacher from Glengad in Co. Donegal, began a hunger strike when the biggest pipe-laying ship in the world, Solitaire, arrived to start laying the pipeline for Shell's controversial Corrib gas project.



Yet, following 10 days of hunger strike, Shell maintains a stony silence, refusing to make public their intentions and that of the Solitaire. It was previously reported that Shell would not attempt to lay the pipeline until next year; however no statement from Shell has been forthcoming to confirm or deny that. If Shell were to clarify their intentions, it would hopefully provide sufficient grounds for Maura to end her current protest. Instead, one of the biggest multinationals in the world is playing a game of high stakes poker with Ms. Harrington's life. We need to continue to pressurise this multinational company in every way possible and continue to raise public awareness to make an unequivocal announcement.





Kathy Sinnott press release from today.