On This Day 20th August in Irish History

1860- At the capture of the Taku Forts in China, Hospital Apprentice Andrew Fitzgibbon was with the 67th Foot when he was severely wounded attending to injured men in the open. Fitzgibbon, born in India of Irish parents, was awarded a VC for his courage and is one of the youngest at age 15. He later rose to the dizzy heights of Apothecary.

Deaths

1981- Michael Devine became the last hunger striker to die in the Maze Prison.

Lestat, do you read G.Hayes/Mc Coy stuff? I'd recommend "Irish Military" battles if you havn't got a copy already. He covers Knockdoe well and a lot of the Nine Years War buile batters. I can't complain about balance today

Would that boy Fitzgibbon have been the Cascarino of VCs?

Lean ar aghaidh le d'obair mhaith

The Maze is flattened now isn't it ?

Are they going to build something decent there or what ?

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:

The Maze is flattened now isn't it ?

Are they going to build something decent there or what ?

The 'Long Kesh' devolpment story will indeed be long. The DUP want it wiped of the face of the earth but I believe you can get tickets for small tours. Talkback on radio Ulster interviewed visitors from overseas who couldn't believe they wanted to pull it down. It is a darkly atmospheric place that could educate those that might see conflict as an answer as it was in it's previous use(which ever way you want to take that).

Reports recommended building a stadium there but the DUP have set themselves against the conflict resolution/museum idea and that's why Pootsy got the chop cause he wanted it in his constituency. Accelarating themselves into a cul-de-sac again as is their want.

I would have to agree with the DUP then. It appears to be a horrid depressing place. Flatten it I say. There are enough reminders elsewhere.

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:

I would have to agree with the DUP then. It appears to be a horrid depressing place. Flatten it I say. There are enough reminders elsewhere.

I'd totally disagree with you there. A lot of history there. Would you total Kilmainham?

SeathrúnCeitinn wrote:

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:

I would have to agree with the DUP then. It appears to be a horrid depressing place. Flatten it I say. There are enough reminders elsewhere.

I'd totally disagree with you there. A lot of history there. Would you total Kilmainham?

Hmmm... No I wouldn't. I see your point.

Is the structure of it good enough to turn into something useful then ?
It's quite a lot of space isn't it.

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:

SeathrúnCeitinn wrote:

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:

I would have to agree with the DUP then. It appears to be a horrid depressing place. Flatten it I say. There are enough reminders elsewhere.

I'd totally disagree with you there. A lot of history there. Would you total Kilmainham?

Hmmm... No I wouldn't. I see your point.

Is the structure of it good enough to turn into something useful then ?
It's quite a lot of space isn't it.

A lot of the prison is gone but they hope to retain one H-block and the hospital wing on a smaller section of the development. Prisons that are now museums all over the world are fascinating for a myriad of reasons. Auschwitz/Alcatraz/Hobart/Robyn Island and dare I say....dare,dare...the Tower of London. I think we'd be shootin ourselves in the pocket foot tourist wise even though I can fully understand some victims of people incarcerated there might find it abhorrent.

SeathrúnCeitinn wrote:

Would that boy Fitzgibbon have been the Cascarino of VCs?

The John Aldridge perhaps. Tony Cascarino was adopted.

SeathrúnCeitinn wrote:

I'd totally disagree with you there. A lot of history there. Would you total Kilmainham?

Depends on what SF want to use the museum for. If it's history fine, if it's for IRA propaganda, not fine. Comparisons with Auschwitz are ridiculous by the way.

Aldridge it is (though I think it was Cas's mother that was adopted) and I didn't compare it directly with Auschwitz as if they were exactly the same. I did say for a myriad of reasons people visit these places...be they concentration camps , transportation destinations or whatever historical resonances the place might have.

SeathrúnCeitinn wrote:

...I didn't compare it directly with Auschwitz as if they were exactly the same. ....

A well known NI politician has referred to it as Ireland's Auschwitz in the recent past.

You messed up Lestat, 1978 I was born.

By the way I`d agree with Seathrún about the Maze it would be ridiculous to tear the whole thing down. It`s a state building it`s hard to imagine it being used for "IRA propaganda" as you called it Lestat and even if it passed into private hands and was opened as a museum that did propagandise the IRA they would be perfectly entitled to do it. You mightn`t like it, or I mightn`t like it but it would be their right.

anmajornarthainig wrote:

You messed up Lestat, 1978 I was born.

By the way I`d agree with Seathrún about the Maze it would be ridiculous to tear the whole thing down. It`s a state building it`s hard to imagine it being used for "IRA propaganda" as you called it Lestat and even if it passed into private hands and was opened as a museum that did propagandise the IRA they would be perfectly entitled to do it. You mightn`t like it, or I mightn`t like it but it would be their right.

Happy Birthday anmajornathainig!

Lestat wrote:

SeathrúnCeitinn wrote:

...I didn't compare it directly with Auschwitz as if they were exactly the same. ....

A well known NI politician has referred to it as Ireland's Auschwitz in the recent past.

If that is a reference to Paul Butler it would be interesting to read what he actually said

"Long Kesh is on a standing with Robben Island, Auschwitz and the Berlin Wall and we cannot afford to lose that history," Mr Butler said.

"Long Kesh is the most famous and infamous building of the conflict. Everybody in Ireland knows of it as do many people around the world.

"The importance that Long Kesh has had in the history of the conflict here should form part of the survey the EHS are to carry out on the buildings of the former prison.

"Long Kesh remains the ideal place to give future generations an understanding of the historical significance of the jail." Irish News 23/08/03

and Kevin Myers' reply in that most objective of little Englander publications, the Daily Telegraph,to this was

"Sinn Fein spokesmen now routinely rank the Maze Prison alongside Auschwitz and Robben Island, a comparison simply too obscene to deserve refutation."

Another man who just went off on one without reading what the person said.

Agus bain sult as an lá anmajornartháinig. Leathbhealch chuig seasca mar a dúirt fear athasach liom nuair a bhí triocha bliain saolta agam

Go raibh maith agaibh Cactus Flower agus Seathrún.

If that is what Paul Butler wrote or said it is entirely reasonable in that context to compare the Maze to Auschwitz.

context is a wonderful thing

1908 - Born - Joe Hughes, Bellaghy, Co. Derry.

Seo fear stairiúil atá ina chónaí cúpla míle ó mo bhaile dúchais. Joe Hughes - Athair do Phroinsias a fuair bás ar stailc ocrais. Dhiúltaigh sé an teileagram ó Lizzie Windsor. Céad bliain saolta aige.Maith an fear, Joe agus go raibh céad bliain eile agat.


Seo é agus é trí bliana is seachtó agus fós ag troid ar son a cheart

anmajornarthainig wrote:

If that is what Paul Butler wrote or said it is entirely reasonable in that context to compare the Maze to Auschwitz.

In what context could you possibly draw a comparison between a Nazi death camp where over 1.5 million people were put to death and a prison where 10 men starved themselves to death of their own freewill.

Lestat, do you seriously believe you're standing on a higher moral ground with some of the , and I'm sorry to have to say this, pithy cr@p you're coming off with. Seriously try reading what people, you may believe to be wrong, write......

SeathrúnCeitinn wrote:

Lestat, do you seriously believe you're standing on a higher moral ground with some of the , and I'm sorry to have to say this, pithy cr@p you're coming off with. Seriously try reading what people, you may believe to be wrong, write......

Read it, think they're wrong. End of discussion.

Lestat wrote:

anmajornarthainig wrote:

If that is what Paul Butler wrote or said it is entirely reasonable in that context to compare the Maze to Auschwitz.

In what context could you possibly draw a comparison between a Nazi death camp where over 1.5 million people were put to death and a prison where 10 men starved themselves to death of their own freewill.

Both, apparently, are now historic monuments of a kind.

There's a real dilemma with sites with a grim history. Some people just want to obliterate them, some wan't to keep them in a respectful way, for commemoration or learning and other people are just ghoulish.

Lestat wrote:

SeathrúnCeitinn wrote:

Lestat, do you seriously believe you're standing on a higher moral ground with some of the , and I'm sorry to have to say this, pithy cr@p you're coming off with. Seriously try reading what people, you may believe to be wrong, write......

Read it, think they're wrong. End of discussion.

Sounds a bit like General Percival in Singapore........

SeathrúnCeitinn wrote:

Lestat wrote:

SeathrúnCeitinn wrote:

Lestat, do you seriously believe you're standing on a higher moral ground with some of the , and I'm sorry to have to say this, pithy cr@p you're coming off with. Seriously try reading what people, you may believe to be wrong, write......

Read it, think they're wrong. End of discussion.

Sounds a bit like General Percival in Singapore........

General Percival was discussing the 1981 hunger strikes and Auschwitz in Singapore in 1942. A man before his time then.

I think comparisons between Long Kesh and and Robben Island are reasonable.

Lestat wrote:

SeathrúnCeitinn wrote:

Lestat wrote:

SeathrúnCeitinn wrote:

Lestat, do you seriously believe you're standing on a higher moral ground with some of the , and I'm sorry to have to say this, pithy cr@p you're coming off with. Seriously try reading what people, you may believe to be wrong, write......

Read it, think they're wrong. End of discussion.

Sounds a bit like General Percival in Singapore........

General Percival was discussing the 1981 hunger strikes and Auschwitz in Singapore in 1942. A man before his time then.

He might be dead 42 years but I'd say he'd be a little more reasonable/objective in his arguments