Class division in Britain and Ireland

Johnny Keogh wrote:

I daresay you're right. To be honest I know little or nothing about the English or the British in general. I have never looked to the UK for anything more than the soccer results and even nowadays I usually check out the Bundaslige first to see how the "Eintracht" are doing.

Whilst I will admit to having a streak of nationalism running thru me(show me an Irishman who has'nt), I have never consiouscly defined it thru anti-Britishness or anti-Englishness. Indiffereance would best describe my attitude to our neighbours. Now mainland Europe, thats a different story.....

I've spent a good bit of time working over there. The class thing is big there: there's is a big working class and not much contact between the classes.
There's snobbery here too, but not so much division.

cactus flower wrote:

There's snobbery here too, but not so much division.

It is rapidly developing. I would also argue, anecdotally, that it is not the traditional D4/Foxrock snob who is creating it.

johnfás wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

There's snobbery here too, but not so much division.

It is rapidly developing. I would also argue, anecdotally, that it is not the traditional D4/Foxrock snob who is creating it.

Anecdotally speaking, who is?

I've never noticed any snobery on my daily rounds. Of course we shoot at any townies that attempt to trespass so I don't know what it's like for them.

johnfás wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

There's snobbery here too, but not so much division.

It is rapidly developing. I would also argue, anecdotally, that it is not the traditional D4/Foxrock snob who is creating it.

Do you think the recession will stop all that nonsense ?

Yea, I think it probably will - have you heard sales of normal bread are up? Always a good sign. The local shop here has been taken over by Donnybrook Fair (*groan*) not only have prices gone up by around 20% for a chocolate bar, you can also barely find a normal sliced pan. We've stopped shopping there, we don't need exotic bread.

My initial statement might sound a bit snobby in itself and it is said possibly from a somewhat biased position, but it is the way I see it. My social group would fit into the stereotype of the sort of people some might consider snobs, mostly private educated south dublin ya-di-ya-di-yada. However, most of my friends wouldn't have expensive walnut kitchens and electric gates secluding themselves from any sort of community - most people who have moved onto their roads in the last ten years do though.

That's just my experience.

I can`t speak for what it`s like in Britain. All I can say is how shocked I was when I moved from Galway to Dublin at how little contact people from different social classes with each other. The school where I taught had an a majority working class population. I often had a better understanding of where the kids were coming from than some of the middle class Dublin teachers who worked in the school. They might has well have been from a different planet. Another thing that struck me about people from Dublin was how parochial they were. They knew their own areas and the city centre and that was pretty much it. The kids I taught had no idea what life was like in middle or upper class areas.

anmajornarthainig wrote:

I can`t speak for what it`s like in Britain. All I can say is how shocked I was when I moved from Galway to Dublin at how little contact people from different social classes with each other. The school where I taught had an a majority working class population. I often had a better understanding of where the kids were coming from than some of the middle class Dublin teachers who worked in the school. They might has well have been from a different planet. Another thing that struck me about people from Dublin was how parochial they were. They knew their own areas and the city centre and that was pretty much it. The kids I taught had no idea what life was like in middle or upper class areas.

Dublin is a much bigger place than Galway, you see. Galway could fit into Dún Laoghaire and still leave plenty to spare. The greater population and greater size of the Dublin Metropolitan Area contributes to this distance between the leafy suburbs of Rathfarnham and the mean streets of Finglas. Galway is a smaller place so there would be a greater mix.

The people with money and 'old money' are generally the easiest in the world to get on with. The ones who are difficult are the brash upwardly mobile with expectations greater than their means.

In England the classes do tend to keep apart. Private schools, coming out parties and all that. You need to be in the circle. There are lots of reasons other than money, it is about common values, family circles, experience, interests and outlook. It is even about a common history.

To have wealth that has accumulated for centuries is both a privilege and a responsibility. Buildings to maintain, paintings, books, furnishings and furniture to preserve for future generations. There is a richness that it gives to life that is beyond money.

That is the plus side. On the down side there are upper class children who are, academically challenged taking jobs that are well above their ability. They go into a job because of family contacts. They get University places in good Universities and deprive opportunity for those more able from more modest backgrounds. That is very wrong.

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:

anmajornarthainig wrote:

I can`t speak for what it`s like in Britain. All I can say is how shocked I was when I moved from Galway to Dublin at how little contact people from different social classes with each other. The school where I taught had an a majority working class population. I often had a better understanding of where the kids were coming from than some of the middle class Dublin teachers who worked in the school. They might has well have been from a different planet. Another thing that struck me about people from Dublin was how parochial they were. They knew their own areas and the city centre and that was pretty much it. The kids I taught had no idea what life was like in middle or upper class areas.

Dublin is a much bigger place than Galway, you see. Galway could fit into Dún Laoghaire and still leave plenty to spare. The greater population and greater size of the Dublin Metropolitan Area contributes to this distance between the leafy suburbs of Rathfarnham and the mean streets of Finglas. Galway is a smaller place so there would be a greater mix.

That`s only one factor. One of the major factors is second level education. There are any number of private second level school in Dublin that charge ridiculous fees that`s another factor in seperating the classes. that`s got nothing to do with geography. There are fee-paying private schools in the inner-city on both the North and South sides of the Liffey. Incidentally I`ve heard Limerick being described as an extremely class-divided city as well and that `s a place that`s roughly the same size as Galway. It was Limerick people I heard saying that. I don`t know the city well enough to comment on it.

anmajornarthainig wrote:

That`s only one factor. One of the major factors is second level education. There are any number of private second level school in Dublin that charge ridiculous fees that`s another factor in seperating the classes. that`s got nothing to do with geography. There are fee-paying private schools in the inner-city on both the North and South sides of the Liffey.

Majority of people living in inner city don't go to them so it doesn't split the classes within the city centre. In fact, there are not that many people living in the city centre these days. There is of course a large suburban divide between the classes.

There used to be a great number of fee paying schools in the city centre, you had Wesley where the Department of Justice now is, High School on Harcourt Street, St Andrew's in Ballsbridge, The King's Hospital where the Law Society now resides. However, with the development of the suburbs most of these moved out in the mid 20th century. The schools which remain in the city centre by and large do not serve inner city children at all but rather are relics of a Dublin that once was very city rather than suburb centric. Most kids at those schools commute into them from the suburbs.

You`re illustrating my point Johnfás rather than refuting it. The fact is that the people who live in the natural hinterland of inner-city fee-paying schools don`t go to them. On the other hand people who are comuting into them are refusing to attend the schools in their own localities to attend a fee-paying school. Why is that? It`s because people are voluntarily segragating their children. One of the reasons (not the only one I know) is class and the percieved future benefits of access to power.

Link to our thread on class division in Ireland:-

https://machinenation.forumakers.com/language-culture-f9/class-division-in-ireland-t138.htm?highlight=class

I think I posted in this thread on the division in Limerick and other cities in Ireland. There is a shocking ghettoisation of local authority tenants who live in big blocks of social housing that most middle class people never get to see. Living in these areas is a disadvantage in all kinds of ways. People lie about their address when they apply for jobs. There is very little public transport, considering a lot of the people don't own cars, very little policing and hardly any facilities.

Perfectly nice people have to live next to burnt out houses and burnt out cars.

The difference between here and in Britain is that the people here feel they are equal citizens and don't have the same concept of class hierarchy.

I don't think you can ever completely eradicate some form of ghettoisation within cities. It exists as much in Western Europe as it does in the USA, China and it most certainly existed in the USSR.

You will also always have people lying about their address. I know people who live in America who do it.

I agree with you on facilities. However, any administration gets caught in a catch 22 when it comes to developing slum areas of city. It is paramount that such areas are developed and redeveloped. However, there is also a high likelihood that many of the facilities will be run down and destroyed owing to their location. This means that politicians who choose to do the right thing can often suffer politically as a result.

It is not just facilities that are needed mind you. Many disadvantaged areas of Dublin have abundantly more facilities than the leafier suburbs. What is necessary is investment to maintain and encourage the use of these facilities as well as the resourcing of community and youth groups and the promotion of good parenting.

Sometimes you feel demoted by using social services. A few years ago I had to use free dental care, provided by the students of the local university in a social facility as part of their training. But I resented not being able to go to a private sector dentist, as I had always done.

arnaudherve wrote:

Sometimes you feel demoted by using social services. A few years ago I had to use free dental care, provided by the students of the local university in a social facility as part of their training. But I resented not being able to go to a private sector dentist, as I had always done.

It is always a dilemma when the doctor says "do you mind if my students watch". On the one hand I feel that it would be mean-spirited to stand in the way of young doctors trying to learn their skills, and on the other hand I feel like telling them to take a running jump.