Fluoride - do you trust the scientists?

Auditor #9 wrote:

No, aluminium wouldn't be something you'd boil out of water I'd imagine. How did they know that it needed to be .. boiled i.e. how did they detect the aluminium in the first instance - routine tests or something ?

And who looks after these things - Councils or the EPA or a wider European body ?

Its easy enough for local authorities to know how much aluminium is in the water as they put it in themselves. Makes it nice and shiny.

The latest from the WHO is the "Guidelines for Drinking-Water Quality, Second Addendum to the 3rd Edition Volume 1 - Recommendations" (pdf document here).

As I expected, they keep calling fluoride a "nutrient", an appalling scandal. Note the mealy-mouthed language:
p. 17:

Quote :

Rainwater lacks minerals, but some minerals in appropriate concentrations are essential for health, such as calcium, magnesium, iron and fluoride.

p. 48 (Here is the WHO covering itself against lawsuits, while obviously not caring that governments almost invariably ignore this advice.):

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In setting national standards for fluoride or in evaluating the possible health consequences of exposure to fluoride, it is essential to consider the intake of water by the population of interest and the intake of fluoride from other sources (e.g., from food, air and dental preparations). Where the intakes from other sources are likely to approach, or be greater than, 6 mg/day, it would be appropriate to consider setting standards at a lower concentration than the guideline value.

There is no doubt that many Irish people are ingesting more fluoride than 6 mg/day, but the "health" authorities pretend everything is grand. Just keep on fluoridating the population, one size fits all. Sure it's great stuff. As the Irish Times pointed out, it's only loonies who object to having fluoride forced down their throats.

p. 48:

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Fluoride may be an essential element for humans; however, essentiality has not been demonstrated unequivocally.

That statement is more than just idiotic; it's thoroughly malicious. There is no reason to think fluoride is essential; quite the opposite in fact. Fluoride is more toxic than lead.

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... Many epidemiological studies of possible adverse effects of the long-term ingestion of fluoride via drinking-water have been carried out.

That is outrageously misleading. Few studies of that kind have been carried out, and none have been of the highest scientific quality. Basically, the science supporting fluoridation is rubbish.

p. 49:

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There is no evidence to suggest that the guideline value of 1.5 mg/litre set in 1984 and reaffirmed in 1993 needs to be revised.

They would say that, wouldn't they? It's nonsense. The guideline value should be 0.1 mg/litre. Nobody needs fluoride, ever. Before fluoridation started in Ireland (1964), 99% of water supplies had fluoride levels below 0.1 mg/l.

One of the problems with this latest document is the involvement of British scientist John Fawell MBE (he got the award for "services to water") who coordinated the fluoride sections of the main Drinking Water Guidelines document. For that he was working with four dentists, among them the UCC fluoride fanatics O'Mullane and Whelton, and the English fluoride fanatic Michael Lennon.

There's more about Fawell on this page (towards the bottom of the page). His involvements with Solvay (on the sham "Green" website greenfacts.org) and The Sapphire Group are worrying.

[MOD]Merged with current flouride thread.[/MOD]

I think fluoridation came up because I pointed out it's a conspiracy...

Auditor #9 wrote:

Ok, fluoride isn't a nutrient, no. Can they claim it occurs naturally and is ingested routinely in the state of nature ?

It does occur naturally. There's at least a trace of it in every water supply. When it gets over 0.5 mg/litre you start to see harmful effects in the population -- dental fluorosis being the first indicator. 99% of Irish water supplies were below 0.1 mg/l before fluoridation started. If a salmon river has 0.5 mg/l fluoride (from pollution), the fish will start to die out.

Fluoride accumulates in your body. The more you ingest, the more damage it does.

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Is there any established correlation between fluoride dosage and some deficiency though in any country ?

There's no such thing as fluoride deficiency. On the other hand, fluoride can cause iodine deficiency. It's all to do with the thyroid; see this.

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Maybe they won't research it here because it'd be too scary.

Correct.

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We need a control and an experimental group on which to test for effects. That must exist in Ireland - two communities, one without fluoridation the other with.

Nobody in the Republic of Ireland can escape being dosed with artificial fluoride, unless they take extraordinary measures. Most processed food contains fluoride from the water, nearly all drinks (including Guinness), and so on. Northern Ireland is not fluoridated so you'd find control groups there. The only scientific studies comparing the two populations have been those carried out by the fluoridator dentists.

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Incidences of some conditions could be collected but how would they b related to fluoridation ... ? It's impossible to control and experiment on a population like that.

Obviously, fluoridation is a lunatic [back on topic], uncontrolled experiment on the Irish population.

We do know quite a bit about the effects of even low doses of fluoride. And there seems to have been a significant increase in the incidence of various fluoride-related diseases since fluoridation started. See
this. An appalling vista. So it must be ignored by the medical establishment.

I really don't care about this issue. I've been drinking large quantities of water from my tap for years now and I haven't had any complaints. I haven't been to hospital except to visit others and I'm quite healthy and any health problems I have are genetic/hereditary conditions. Fluoride in, fluoride out, I'm not bothered.

soubresauts wrote:

Quote :

Is there any established correlation between fluoride dosage and some deficiency though in any country ?

There's no such thing as fluoride deficiency. On the other hand, fluoride can cause iodine deficiency. It's all to do with the thyroid; see this.

Thanks for taking the time to do that - both your posts are above. The interview continues unfortunately for you.

By "deficiency" I meant health deficiencies as a result of ingesting above the recommended daily dosages ? I'll have a read of that later but I have to say this - if there are communities who are being dosed with fluoride and plenty who aren't then I'd imagine that would constitute two ideal groups for study. I believe we in Clare for example get plenty of fluoride. I don't know why I know that but I think I picked it up from a (Cork?) dentist in a laboratory (no joke) who looked at me funny when I was younger and needed the money saying "ahhh, you're from Clare? - I see now ... they still flouridate your water a lot there - it's supposed to help your teeth".

If the people of Clare are getting fluoridated and the people of Cork or Bayern aren't then that should constitute two large enough groups surely to detect health differences due to fluoride ? I should read your link first but I will now.

Lastly, do you know of a piece of kit I can get my hands on to measure the amount of fluoride in my tap water ?

Auditor #9 wrote:

I'll have a read of that later but I have to say this - if there are communities who are being dosed with fluoride and plenty who aren't then I'd imagine that would constitute two ideal groups for study. I believe we in Clare for example get plenty of fluoride. I don't know why I know that but I think I picked it up from a (Cork?) dentist in a laboratory (no joke) who looked at me funny when I was younger and needed the money saying "ahhh, you're from Clare? - I see now ... they still flouridate your water a lot there - it's supposed to help your teeth".

Cork's water is just as fluoridated as Clare's water.

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If the people of Clare are getting fluoridated and the people of Cork or Bayern aren't then that should constitute two large enough groups surely to detect health differences due to fluoride ? I should read your link first but I will now.

There's no water fluoridation in Bavaria, but there's a lot of fluoridated salt there.

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Lastly, do you know of a piece of kit I can get my hands on to measure the amount of fluoride in my tap water ?

Sorry, I don't know. I fear it wouldn't be cheap, or else I'd have heard about it. Unless you're on a very small, local water supply, there will be fluoride in your water at around 0.7 mg/litre. Exceedances are unfortunately common.

I'm just reading some of the link -

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Gorlitzer von Mundy (Austria) reports that daily intake of 3 mgs of fluoride in rabbits and rats leads to goiter and cretinism-like conditions.

http://poisonfluoride.com/pfpc/html/thyroid_history.html

-- is that anything to do with the street-lingo I'm more familiar with ? This is the argument against fluoride isn't it - it affects brain development.

I think the original use of the 'cretin'-related words were medically associated with thyroid functions. Wouldn't there be some IQ disparity between groups - something noticeable ?

Whatever about the issue in the question, I find it a bit depressing to see any thread asking if you 'trust' someone. I used to post on politics.ie until it became a paranoid zone full of extremists and conspiracy theorists. It began to fill up with 'do you trust politicians/the guards/Fianna Fail/Church/ etc. I hope we don't having paranoid threads here.

Papal Knight wrote:

Whatever about the issue in the question, I find it a bit depressing to see any thread asking if you 'trust' someone. I used to post on politics.ie until it became a paranoid zone full of extremists and conspiracy theorists. It began to fill up with 'do you trust politicians/the guards/Fianna Fail/Church/ etc. I hope we don't having paranoid threads here.

Don't worry, if the conspiracy theorists come, youngdan - our gargoyle - will scare them off.



maybe they're already here though ...

Auditor #9 wrote:

... This is the argument against fluoride isn't it - it affects brain development.

One of many arguments.

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I think the original use of the 'cretin'-related words were medically associated with thyroid functions. Wouldn't there be some IQ disparity between groups - something noticeable ?

See for yourself, here. Quote:

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23 published studies report an association of reduced IQ with high fluoride exposure

Just a disclaimer on the conspiracy theory stuff - this site will not tolerate an over-burdence of conspiracy theories but they have their place. I think it's very healthy to doubt and to juggle certain ideas around but the trouble is if gains some sort of super-paranoia and starts affecting everything. That's potentially very unhealthy - at least it's imbalanced like a bad pair of axles on your vehicle. I can't remember what those things - wishbones ! - if your wishbones are not aligned right then your wheels could rattle off half way to Clonmel from Limerick. Or your steering could come apart - not good. There's paranoia for you - check your tyres for wear !

So no, a lack of balance here will not go down too well but at the same time many theories are worth investigating, sometimes for the sheer entertainment value. But other stuff like the moon landings hoax/not hoax are well worth pursuing as an exercise - many of us learned a bit of rocket science from the Moonie thread for instance and EvotingMachine0197 wrote one of the best posts ever anywhere and deserves a medal. Unfortunately it didn't convince youngdan though.

On the fluoride - whatever about Aliens, Evil Bankers, Declan Ganley with 666 printed on the crown of his pole, I reserve the right to be eminently paranoid about what substances pass my lips.

A dental scientist here puts a pea-sized chunk of toothpaste on a tooth brush. The warning on the toothpaste tube is: "Don't swallow - if you do, call the poison control centre". He says the piece of toothpaste has 0.25 mg of fluoride.

Next he shows us a glass of tap water. It also has 0.25 mg fluoride