Olmert to go

Ding dong the witch is dead! Well, nearly. My God wasn't he a liability? Feel free to criticise Olmert here, or eulogise him , but leave Israel alone for a bit. Another thread maybe.

The question remains: who will succeed him at the helm? The options don't look particularly enticing: link - What next for Israel?
Maybe we'll look back on Olmert with fond remembrance?

Is that Olmert the corrupt crooked cigar smoking no-smoke-without-fire chappie who took over from Sharon ?

Now stepping down so he can clear his name. Huh. Where have I heard that before

They're all the same. Good riddance....

Tzipi Livni is the favourite to take over from Olmert when the Kadema party have an internal election.

Miliband is chancing his arm at taking on Brown and Mícheál Martin is the strongest candidate yet to have a go at Cowen if things got really hairy.

It seems that it's the age of foreign ministers who topple second prime ministers of an administration.

I have been expecting this fool to have been indicted each morning for about 2 years. He started the war to get back the 2 soldiers. Completely screwed up the war. Then last week made a deal to get back a bag of bones(2 soldiers remains) in exchange for 5, one of whom bashed in a child's head with a hammer.

If Hillary Clinton gave one of her BALLS to the guy, they would both have two.
Ragin Cajun.

The guy accused of child murder says this is an invention. Was he convicted of it?

cactus flower wrote:

The guy accused of child murder says this is an invention. Was he convicted of it?

His name is Samir Qantar.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1218760,00.html

I don't have any sympathy or agreement whatsoever for acts of individual or state terror against civilians. That said, since reading about the Belgian Babies in a history book I would approach any account of terror incidents and atrocities in an ongoing war with an open mind and look for evidence that the stories are true and not black propodanda.

It seems that nobody, Kuntar included, disputes that there was a raid ( he was 17 at the time and led the raid) and that Kuntar and his group shot and killed a policeman. Nobody disputes the tragic death of the child smothered by her mother as they hid in their house. Also nobody disputes that there was a shoot out on the beach as Kuntar's group tried to leave (he claims taking the Israeli father and child as hostages) and that in that shoot out Kuntar was shot five times.

There also seems to be agreement that the father stood in the shoot-out to shout for a cease of fire as his child was with him and that he was shot at that point. The prosecution witnesses (were they all police or did they include civilians ?) say that Kuntar shot him.

The summary on the link doesn't refer to any ballistics evidence.
The autopsy report said the child was killed by blows to the head and that her brain tissue was on Kuntar's gun.

Why would someone armed with a gun, in the middle of a gun battle, take time out to go and kill a four year old child with a rifle butt?

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Terror+Groups/The+Kuntar+File+Exposed+-+Yediot+Aharonot+14-Jul-2008.htm

Here is a report of the trial (not contemporaneous) on the Israeli Ministry for Foreign Affairs site. The trial files were classified for 30 years and have only just been released.

Kuntar has always admitted all of the things I refer to except the murder of the child, who he says he believes was killed in crossfire. The Israeli police say that he admitted to the killing on first questioning and then changed his story at the trial.

Having read about this, personally, I have to say that I don't have enough information to know the truth about what happened and that either or both sides could be lying.

http://lisagoldman.net/2008/07/22/samir-kuntar-in-his-own-words/

This is a good interview of kuntar by l
Lisa Goldman, who is hostile to him.

She makes the point that his political formation was typical of the angry middle class youths who are sometimes attracted to the cause of an oppressed group and think that individual terror attacks are the solution.

The attitude she describes is imho ultimately elitist as the assumption of Kuntar is that the oppressed group doesn't have, and can't develop, the capacity to deal with its political issues and that violent individual protest actions are the only option. These groups usually either are killed or else they wear their political rage out, put on the politician's suit and do a deal.

The Qantar issue is off-topic but.

Whether Qantar killed father and child directly or whether they died in the crossfire is really irrelevant. They were on that beach and died because they were taken there at gun point by him. The only mystery is why the Israelis bothered taking Qantar prisoner.

On your original question, yes he was convicted of it.

Lestat wrote:

The Qantar issue is off-topic but.

Whether Qantar killed father and child directly or whether they died in the crossfire is really irrelevant. They were on that beach and died because they were taken there at gun point by him. The only mystery is why the Israelis bothered taking Qantar prisoner.

On your original question, yes he was convicted of it.

The trouble with that is once you start stepping back to a broader picture someone else steps back to a more remote and even broader picture and says " but why did they carry out the raid in the first place". I don't think you or I take the view that it was "collateral damage" of a military action. I think that the raid was a foolish dead end business, and was inhumane and wrong. I also think that the Israelis and their backers created the conditions for it to take place and that the Israeli government used the children's deaths as a propoganda coup.

I know that Kuntar was convicted of the murder of the little girl, but I'm not convinced either way - I don't know whether he did or not. A trial in which the accused may have been tortured at length (lisa goldman doesn't seem to dispute it) during interrogation and of which the records are barred from inspection for 30 years would not meet the standards we have here.

I don't think we're too much off topic.

cactus flower wrote:

I also think that the Israelis and their backers created the conditions for it to take place

Qantar is not a Palestinian, despite the fact that he was a member of the PLF. He is a Lebanese Druze so even if you take the view that the Israelis occupied Palestine (which I don't) then it's nothing to do with Qantar.

cactus flower wrote:

and that the Israeli government used the children's deaths as a propoganda coup.

A bit like Nasrallah and the Lebanese used the return of a child murderer as propaganda.

cactus flower wrote:

I know that Kuntar was convicted of the murder of the little girl, but I'm not convinced either way - I don't know whether he did or not. A trial in which the accused may have been tortured at length (lisa goldman doesn't seem to dispute it) during interrogation and of which the records are barred from inspection for 30 years would not meet the standards we have here.

Mr Qantar is back in Lebanon, a hero for the moment. How many live Israeli prisoners have the Lebanese returned lately?

I know that he is a Druze ( why do you spell him differently from everyone else? Did he change his name or something?), from a wealthy middle class Lebanese background. if Palestine was nothing to do with anyone except the Palestinians, things would be looking very different in Palestine right now.

Kuntar is a hero to many people in Lebanon - do you think they made him a hero because they think he is a child murderer?

He would not be a hero of mine but I'm not convinced he is the devil incarnate any more than any fighter/ex-fighter. He has spent most of his years in jail since he was 15, so they have had plenty of time to work on him. I understand that he got a degree while in jail and has got married.

cactus flower wrote:

I know that he is a Druze ( why do you spell him differently from everyone else? Did he change his name or something?), .

It's how I first saw it spelt.

cactus flower wrote:

from a wealthy middle class Lebanese background. if Palestine was nothing to do with anyone except the Palestinians, things would be looking very different in Palestine right now.

As in he isn't Palestinian so he cannot justify his actions by saying he is liberating his home.

cactus flower wrote:

Kuntar is a hero to many people in Lebanon - do you think they made him a hero because they think he is a child murderer?.

Well yes because the child he killed was a Jew.

cactus flower wrote:

He has spent most of his years in jail since he was 15, so they have had plenty of time to work on him. I understand that he got a degree while in jail and has got married.

Einat Hara would be 33, probably have a degree and be married with children herself now. But you are right Samir Quntar isn't the devil incarnate. He is just an ordinary man who did an evil thing one time. That's what makes him so scary.

http://www.mideastyouth.com/2008/07/15/in-prisoner-swap-samir-kunter-is-no-hero-to-the-arab-fight-for-justice/

http://yalibnan.com/site/archives/2008/07/samir_kuntar_is.php

Who considers Kuntar a hero? Can you produce any evidence that anyone who calls him a hero also thinks he is a liar and that he deliberately killed the child?

I looked for articles supporting Kuntar and couldn't find any - the two links are to lebanese sites that oppose Kuntar.

I don't know much about Lebanese politics. This hostile article describes him as welcomed by the Lebanese heads of state and "hundreds of demonstrators". That doesn't sound like a national outpouring of support. Were they demonstrating in favour of release of prisoners or in favour of child murder?

http://www.caglepost.com/column.aspx?c=7095&pg=2

The interesting discussion that follows the article gives an idea of the opposing perspectives but I don't see any that support killing Jewish children.

Presenting people, either Kuntar or the Lebanese population, as demonic, serves a purpose in removing any need for further enquiry into motivation for anti-Israeli actions. It is a classic propoganda means of cover up.

cactus flower wrote:

Who considers Kuntar a hero? Can you produce any evidence that anyone who calls him a hero also thinks he is a liar and that he deliberately killed the child?...

...I don't know much about Lebanese politics. This hostile article describes him as welcomed by the Lebanese heads of state and "hundreds of demonstrators". That doesn't sound like a national outpouring of support. Were they demonstrating in favour of release of prisoners or in favour of child murder?

Now you're being silly. How on earth could I produce such evidence without going to Lebanon and polling the whole population. However Quntar was greeted on his release by the President of Lebanon who represents the Lebanese people and who addressed the released prisoners as the freed heroes. Also joining in were anybody who is anybody in Lebanese politics.

cactus flower wrote:

The interesting discussion that follows the article gives an idea of the opposing perspectives but I don't see any that support killing Jewish children.

Naturally

cactus flower wrote:

Presenting people, either Kuntar or the Lebanese population, as demonic, serves a purpose in removing any need for further enquiry into motivation for anti-Israeli actions. It is a classic propoganda means of cover up.

I didn't demonise anybody. In fact;

Lestat wrote:

But you are right Samir Quntar isn't the devil incarnate. He is just an ordinary man who did an evil thing one time. That's what makes him so scary.

What is it with you Lestat. You link to a story where the pig is called Kuntar and you come back talking about Mr Qantar. What did this pig do that you wish to show him respect by calling him Mr.

Anyway why do you think Kuntar was picked for release from all the thousands of prisoners. It was because he committed one of the vilest crimes ever. I thought he used a hammer but it says the childs brains were on the rifle butt. Do you think some israeli solder came along and scooped out the little girls brain and smeared it on the rifle.

The whole point of the exercise was to demoralise the country. In prison terms what happened is that they showed the country that Olmert is their PUNK. In deference to the sensitivities of the ladies I will not say what a PUNK is.

Lestat said:

Quote :

Now you're being silly. How on earth could I produce such evidence without going to Lebanon and polling the whole population.

I only asked you to find evidence of one single person who admires Kuntar because they believe he murdered a jewish child.

Quote :

Kuntar is a hero to many people in Lebanon - do you think they made him a hero because they think he is a child murderer?.

Well yes because the child he killed was a Jew.

To me, unless you can provide some evidence that that is the case, you are demonising them. I've provided links to middle eastern sources who oppose Kuntar as much as any Israeli. Kuntar's supporters also deny he killed the child, they don't celebrate it.

http://www.newsobserver.com/110/story/1148509.html

(On the spelling of the name, it occurs to me that his name is arabic and which ever way we write it is a phonetic version of the arabic script. The most commonly used is with the K, but Q is used too)

cactus flower wrote:

I only asked you to find evidence of one single person who admires Kuntar because they believe he murdered a jewish child.

OK. Since Quntar is a convicted child murderer and hailed as a hero by many Lebanese from President Suleiman down, I feel safe in assuming they fully support his activities including the murder of the child.

cactus flower wrote:

To me, unless you can provide some evidence that that is the case, you are demonising them. I've provided links to middle eastern sources who oppose Kuntar as much as any Israeli. Kuntar's supporters also deny he killed the child, they don't celebrate it.

From a Lebanese news site. The emphasis is mine.

Quote :

Samir Kantar

Forty-six-year-old Samir Kantar is the longest serving Arab prisoner in Israel. A Druze member of the Palestinian Liberation Front, Kantar was arrested in Israel in 1979 and convicted of the murder of Danny Haran; his four-year-old daughter, Eilat; and two policemen. He was handed down four life sentences. While behind bars, Kantar earned a degree from Israeli Open University in political science, and he married, and later divorced, an Israeli Arab woman.
Kantar had originally entered Israel with four other militants on a rubber boat, departing from Sur with the intention to attack Nahariya.
Hezbollah had previously attempted to secure Kantar’s release numerous times, most recently in 2006, when party militants kidnapped Regev and Goldwasser, and started the July War. Kantar has been hailed by Hezbollah as a hero, and according to some sources, chief among them al-Akhbar, may run in next year’s parliamentary elections. Many Lebanese who lionize Kantar claim that he is innocent of the charges and that those he murdered were legitimate targets.

http://www.nowlebanon.com/NewsArticleDetails.aspx?ID=51138

cactus flower wrote:

(On the spelling of the name, it occurs to me that his name is arabic and which ever way we write it is a phonetic version of the arabic script. The most commonly used is with the K, but Q is used too)

Wikipedia gives 3 or 4 different spellings.

Quote :

Many Lebanese who lionize Kantar claim that he is innocent of the charges and that those he murdered were legitimate targets.

If they think he was innocent of the charges they think he didn't murder her so the sentence makes no sense, unless "those he murdered" refers to undisputed killings, including the young policeman.

It does not demonstrate support for child killing.

Hizbullah certainly has a strong influence on the Lebanese heads of state at the moment. That would be worth a discussion in itself.

cactus flower wrote:

Quote :

Many Lebanese who lionize Kantar claim that he is innocent of the charges and that those he murdered were legitimate targets.

If they think he was innocent of the charges they think he didn't murder her so the sentence makes no sense, unless "those he murdered" refers to undisputed killings, including the young policeman.

It does not demonstrate support for child killing.

It is obvious to me that those who support Quantar think that the killings were legitimate and should not be classed as murder. It is also obvious that you cannot be persuaded so that's my last comment on the issue.

cactus flower wrote:

Hizbullah certainly has a strong influence on the Lebanese heads of state at the moment. That would be worth a discussion in itself.

Oh God No.

Eh, back to Olmert, I think the foregn minister, the woman, is in the lead for the nomination. She's the moderate one so this is a good thing.

Olmert has gone all mellow in his old age. Just the other day he was criticising far-right Israeli nationalists and their various shenanigans. Today in the Times, he is suggesting that the Israelis really ought to hand over all their captured land, including half of Jerusalem.

All very easy to say now.

905 wrote:

Olmert has gone all mellow in his old age. Just the other day he was criticising far-right Israeli nationalists and their various shenanigans. Today in the Times, he is suggesting that the Israelis really ought to hand over all their captured land, including half of Jerusalem.

All very easy to say now.

Next stop, Nobel Peace Prize ?