Nuclear Suppliers Group

Found a reference to this today. This apparently is "a group of nuclear supplier countries which seeks to contribute to the non-proliferation of nuclear weapons through the implementation of Guidelines for nuclear exports and nuclear related exports."

http://www.nuclearsuppliersgroup.org/

Its members are:

ARGENTINA, AUSTRALIA, AUSTRIA, BELARUS, BELGIUM, BRAZIL, BULGARIA, CANADA,
CHINA, CROATIA, CYPRUS, CZECH REPUBLIC, DENMARK, ESTONIA, FINLAND, FRANCE,
GERMANY, GREECE, HUNGARY, IRELAND, ITALY, JAPAN, KAZAKHSTAN, REPUBLIC OF
KOREA, LATVIA, LITHUANIA, LUXEMBOURG, MALTA, NETHERLANDS, NEW ZEALAND, NORWAY,
POLAND, PORTUGAL, ROMANIA, RUSSIAN FEDERATION, SLOVAKIA, SLOVENIA, SOUTH
AFRICA, SPAIN, SWEDEN, SWITZERLAND, TURKEY, UKRAINE, UNITED KINGDOM, and
UNITED STATES

Anyone else somewhat puzzled by certain elements of that list?

I didn't even know we were in that group until I was reading a piece in last week's Economist about the political brouhaha surrounding the Indian nuclear deal with the US. Apparently we and the Austrians in the NSG are against the deal on proliferation concerns. I wonder who represents us at NSG meetings. Is it the Minister for FA, Communications, Energy and Natural Resources or Defence?

I'm fascinated by it. I must learn more about them.

Non-proliferation sounds like the foreign affairs department. They have a whole section devoted to this subject.

MikeW wrote:Anyone else somewhat puzzled by certain elements of that list?

Well, I'm puzzled by Ireland being on the list. What other country puzzles you?

So... what Irish companies are involved, and why?

soubresauts wrote:

MikeW wrote:Anyone else somewhat puzzled by certain elements of that list?

Well, I'm puzzled by Ireland being on the list. What other country puzzles you?

So... what Irish companies are involved, and why?

That's what I was getting at in a slightly obtuse fashion.Mind you New Zealand seems a bit odd as well.

The involvement of Enterprise Ireland in the EU arms industry promotion group was also a bit of a surprise, but I suppose that was my naivete. I seem to remember hearing that there are plenty of firms in Ireland producing arms components. Would it be mainly electronics?

Its called "Dual Use" technology kids.

Ireland produces plenty of components and equipment that can be used in the manufacture of everything from baby dolls to cruise missiles.

Anything that falls under the definition "Dual use" - which means civilian/military - and there is a shitload of stuff under that - requires that you apply for an export licence first off and an End User Certificate. I do this all the time and when I have a moment and am in the mood I'll go through it with you.

Im not surprised that Ireland is a member of both nuclear and arms supervisory bodies - at least there you can influence the decisons that are being made and the procedures and directives involved and how both businesses,( as distasteful, immoral ya di ya as both may appear to many here , both nuclear energy or weapons making are not going to go away tomorrow or disappear from our world if we close our eyes for long enough) are regulated and controlled - you can't put the genie back in the bottle once it has been uncorked.

Then again Im a dirty realist - WTF do I know?

If you can work out how to put the genie back, then you'll know something well worth sharing. Otherwise I suppose MAD is the only way.

Edo wrote:
Im not surprised that Ireland is a member of both nuclear and arms supervisory bodies - at least there you can influence the decisons that are being made and the procedures and directives involved and how both businesses,( as distasteful, immoral ya di ya as both may appear to many here , both nuclear energy or weapons making are not going to go away tomorrow or disappear from our world if we close our eyes for long enough) are regulated and controlled - you can't put the genie back in the bottle once it has been uncorked.

Then again Im a dirty realist - WTF do I know?

You're quite right and I do agree with you. If we want to be a force for good in the world we need to be in there at the centre making the decisions with the rest of the international community. It's great to know that we are a member of an oversight community in this regard. We can do more good as part of the NSG than outside it.

Our membership is probably linked to EURATOM.

I don't really have a lot to input into this discussion, so this will probably be my only comment.

I'm not impressed with the 'dual-purpose' argument. I think its only purpose (not in this forum, but on a world stage) is to stifle and snuff debate.

Fair enough, if I manufacture a sheet of aluminium (by way of a simple example), it can be used to make anything, from a coke can, to a stinger missile. That's common sense. But it's not the be all and end all, neither is it the end of the debate.

Say I manufacture a cd with all my greatest hits on it. I can order you not to copy it, play it in theatres and demand that you don't lend it to your friends. It's true to say that I'm very much against copyright and other similar practices. But, just for argument's sake, copyright laws, if they were to be used and enforced, would kill any 'dual purpose' argument or practice.

Course, it'll never happen. Afterall, it's not about preventing the manufacture or sale of weapons. It's about profit. Folks who argue against profit end up dead: metaphorically and physically.

johnfás wrote:Our membership is probably linked to EURATOM.

Probably - but as a country which depends and will depend in the future on international trade both for raw materials and finished goods - membership of all these bodies is vital.

I import uranium,plutonium and other gaseous byproducts of nuclear plants for use in our own processes and Research and development and you have no idea the amount of security checks and paperfilling and auditing I have to go through - its extremely secure in the West.

Anything can become a weapon depending on the hands it falls into.

As you all know - I can be quite the weapon of mass destruction with a few Jack Daniels on board!

Edo wrote:

johnfás wrote:Our membership is probably linked to EURATOM.

Probably - but as a country which depends and will depend in the future on international trade both for raw materials and finished goods - membership of all these bodies is vital.

I import uranium,plutonium and other gaseous byproducts of nuclear plants for use in our own processes and Research and development and you have no idea the amount of security checks and paperfilling and auditing I have to go through - its extremely secure in the West.

Anything can become a weapon depending on the hands it falls into.

As you all know - I can be quite the weapon of mass destruction with a few Jack Daniels on board!

Edo, how much money do we in Ireland make out of the sort of import/export business you're describing? Is it significant? Is it a big part of our world-beating chemicals industry? I hope it is.

Hermes wrote:I don't really have a lot to input into this discussion, so this will probably be my only comment.

I'm not impressed with the 'dual-purpose' argument. I think its only purpose (not in this forum, but on a world stage) is to stifle and snuff debate.

Fair enough, if I manufacture a sheet of aluminium (by way of a simple example), it can be used to make anything, from a coke can, to a stinger missile. That's common sense. But it's not the be all and end all, neither is it the end of the debate.

Say I manufacture a cd with all my greatest hits on it. I can order you not to copy it, play it in theatres and demand that you don't lend it to your friends. It's true to say that I'm very much against copyright and other similar practices. But, just for argument's sake, copyright laws, if they were to be used and enforced, would kill any 'dual purpose' argument or practice.

Course, it'll never happen. Afterall, it's not about preventing the manufacture or sale of weapons. It's about profit. Folks who argue against profit end up dead: metaphorically and physically.

thats a bit simplistic Hermes to be honest with you - while not denying (especially from the Yanks) that there is a certain amount of playing around with "security" in regard to trade restrictions - there is a lot of stuff out there that if it did fall into the wrong hands with the brains to figure it out - could do untold damage - I suppose in the area Im in (semi-conductor and laser systems) I see a lot of more it than the average Joe on the street - would say about 65-70% of what I handle would termed "Dual use" Technology.

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:

Edo wrote:

johnfás wrote:Our membership is probably linked to EURATOM.

Probably - but as a country which depends and will depend in the future on international trade both for raw materials and finished goods - membership of all these bodies is vital.

I import uranium,plutonium and other gaseous byproducts of nuclear plants for use in our own processes and Research and development and you have no idea the amount of security checks and paperfilling and auditing I have to go through - its extremely secure in the West.

Anything can become a weapon depending on the hands it falls into.

As you all know - I can be quite the weapon of mass destruction with a few Jack Daniels on board!

Edo, how much money do we in Ireland make out of the sort of import/export business you're describing? Is it significant? Is it a big part of our world-beating chemicals industry? I hope it is.

I dont know exactly - but once you move up the value chain and into sophisticated manufacturing design and development processes (which is where we need to go) - the further up the % of goods and materials you have under "Dual Use" - I would say our chemical and semi-conductor industry all falls under this category.

I have been importing lasers off a US Company (we co-designed and researched them - but the manufacturing capacity is in Silicon Valley) for 7 years now - they made a slight adjustment to the model we designed and are now selling them to China for the manufacture of Solar energy arrays ( these would be lasers than cut and etch in microns - fucking tiny) and they are making a fortune - but they can easily be used to slice up any material you choose - ie we sold 3 machines to Lockheed Martin for use on the new F22 raptor programme - to dice and cut the new materials used on the this fighter jet - but also for use on new materials that will ultimately be used on passenger jets too

Its hard to be totally moral in this world - but the US is at least a democracy - where do you draw the line? - Weapons dont kill people on their own - people make the decision to use the weapons and normally think long and hard about attacking someone with the same arsenal behind them.

Until Humanity has a collective lobotomy and gets its genes mutated and learns that sharing is the only way forward - then we are stuck here for the forseeable future - maybe the arrival of a Deathstar from somewhere else entirely might fast forward this process.

Edo wrote:

I dont know exactly - but once you move up the value chain and into sophisticated manufacturing design and development processes (which is where we need to go) - the further up the % of goods and materials you have under "Dual Use" - I would say our chemical and semi-conductor industry all falls under this category.

I have been importing lasers off a US Company (we co-designed and researched them - but the manufacturing capacity is in Silicon Valley) for 7 years now - they made a slight adjustment to the model we designed and are now selling them to China for the manufacture of Solar energy arrays ( these would be lasers than cut and etch in microns - fucking tiny) and they are making a fortune - but they can easily be used to slice up any material you choose - ie we sold 3 machines to Lockheed Martin for use on the new F22 raptor programme - to dice and cut the new materials used on the this fighter jet - but also for use on new materials that will ultimately be used on passenger jets too

Its hard to be totally moral in this world - but the US is at least a democracy - where do you draw the line? - Weapons dont kill people on their own - people make the decision to use the weapons and normally think long and hard about attacking someone with the same arsenal behind them.

Until Humanity has a collective lobotomy and gets its genes mutated and learns that sharing is the only way forward - then we are stuck here for the forseeable future - maybe the arrival of a Deathstar from somewhere else entirely might fast forward this process.

Thanks for that interesting description of the industry and your company's clients.

On the moral question, I think we should build an electronics/chemical industry here which can also produce goods which can go into weapons. We need to create jobs here, we need to keep in the US' favour and we need to boost exports. It is in our political and economic interests to do that.

It is the responsibility of those who use the weapons for what happens when they are used. If we sell guidance systems to the US and the US uses them to bomb a country then that is their president and DoD's decision. We didn't tell them to do that. They could have easily used them to advance their space programme and do good with the systems but they made the moral choice.

We have an economy to support and a political relationship to maintain that is perhaps exceeded only by the Israelis. I feel we should sustain high-end electronic and chemical industries like yours in this country.

Edo wrote:

Hermes wrote:I don't really have a lot to input into this discussion, so this will probably be my only comment.

I'm not impressed with the 'dual-purpose' argument. I think its only purpose (not in this forum, but on a world stage) is to stifle and snuff debate.

Fair enough, if I manufacture a sheet of aluminium (by way of a simple example), it can be used to make anything, from a coke can, to a stinger missile. That's common sense. But it's not the be all and end all, neither is it the end of the debate.

Say I manufacture a cd with all my greatest hits on it. I can order you not to copy it, play it in theatres and demand that you don't lend it to your friends. It's true to say that I'm very much against copyright and other similar practices. But, just for argument's sake, copyright laws, if they were to be used and enforced, would kill any 'dual purpose' argument or practice.

Course, it'll never happen. Afterall, it's not about preventing the manufacture or sale of weapons. It's about profit. Folks who argue against profit end up dead: metaphorically and physically.

thats a bit simplistic Hermes to be honest with you - while not denying (especially from the Yanks) that there is a certain amount of playing around with "security" in regard to trade restrictions - there is a lot of stuff out there that if it did fall into the wrong hands with the brains to figure it out - could do untold damage - I suppose in the area Im in (semi-conductor and laser systems) I see a lot of more it than the average Joe on the street - would say about 65-70% of what I handle would termed "Dual use" Technology.

Tis very simplistic of me

In truth, my argument wasn't about keeping the 'cavemen' from developing nukes and other stuff. My argument was specifically about allowing products that are manufactured in places like Ireland being utilised as materials for the manufacture of weapons by the arms industry.

Thanks for making me clear that up. When I read back what I'd said after your comment, I realised that my point seemed to be masquerading as a cure-all for everything and anything. To extrapolate my point somewhat, I'm saying that there's a bottom-up safety control mechanism, inbuilt into the manufacturing industry. The problem is, that it's never used when it could potentially impede profit.

And of course, you're very right, practically anything can be used as a weapon. Nonetheless, items specifically designed to act as weapons, traditionally tend to be more efficient and usually provoke more fear and disgust than the tools the proles usually have to resort to using in a hopeless effort to defend themselves.