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 Room for an Irish Tory Party?

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PostSubject: Re: Room for an Irish Tory Party?   Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:30 pm

ibis wrote:
Lestat wrote:
ibis wrote:
Is there a permanent place for a Tory party in Ireland, and, if so, where has it come from - the increase in affluence, the social disaggregation of the new suburbs? Any takers?

The imminent demise of the PDs would indicate No.

Hmm. The PDs were never an Irish Tory party, though.

Quote :
Ireland already has an overwhelmingly conservative electorate. I don't
think there is a place for a Tory style party in Ireland. Where would
the votes come from? Presumably such a party would be deemed a rehash
of PD ideals with a shiny new eurosceptic outlook. A party like that
would bomb in Ireland.

The PDs were socially progressive, while the Irish electorate is by and large socially conservative.

I don't think I articulated my point very well.

I was trying to point out that such a party would have a difficult time capturing any kind of a core vote due to the fact that the other parties already include their various constituent parts. For instance, how would FG shape up against an Irish Tory party? The only major difference would be that the Tory party would be Eurosceptic. There would be no market for such a party in Ireland because it is a totally unoriginal concept.
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PostSubject: Re: Room for an Irish Tory Party?   Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:23 pm

unaligned wrote:
ibis wrote:
Lestat wrote:
ibis wrote:
Is there a permanent place for a Tory party in Ireland, and, if so, where has it come from - the increase in affluence, the social disaggregation of the new suburbs? Any takers?

The imminent demise of the PDs would indicate No.

Hmm. The PDs were never an Irish Tory party, though.

Quote :
Ireland already has an overwhelmingly conservative electorate. I don't
think there is a place for a Tory style party in Ireland. Where would
the votes come from? Presumably such a party would be deemed a rehash
of PD ideals with a shiny new eurosceptic outlook. A party like that
would bomb in Ireland.

The PDs were socially progressive, while the Irish electorate is by and large socially conservative.

I don't think I articulated my point very well.

I was trying to point out that such a party would have a difficult time capturing any kind of a core vote due to the fact that the other parties already include their various constituent parts. For instance, how would FG shape up against an Irish Tory party? The only major difference would be that the Tory party would be Eurosceptic. There would be no market for such a party in Ireland because it is a totally unoriginal concept.

I can agree to some extent with that point - except that support for political parties is not purely dependent on policy (indeed, in Ireland, one often feels it is completely independent of it) but also on 'brand' and presentation. Fine Gael are a traditional part of the Irish political scene - I am asking whether there is room for a new 'brand' to capture a certain segment of voters who are more disconnected from Irish traditions than before.
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PostSubject: Re: Room for an Irish Tory Party?   Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:10 pm

ibis wrote:
Hmm. The PDs were never an Irish Tory party, though.

I would have said they were.

ibis wrote:
The PDs were socially progressive, while the Irish electorate is by and large socially conservative.

Well if you call Thatcherism socially progressive... Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Room for an Irish Tory Party?   Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:13 am

Lestat wrote:
ibis wrote:
Hmm. The PDs were never an Irish Tory party, though.

I would have said they were.

I spent the first half of the Eighties, and the early part of the Nineties, in the UK under first Thatcher and then Major. The PDs weren't in the ball park.

Lestat wrote:
ibis wrote:
The PDs were socially progressive, while the Irish electorate is by and large socially conservative.

Well if you call Thatcherism socially progressive... Laughing

It depends on what one means - 'socially progressive' can mean 'liberal', which the PDs originally were - in favour of the rights of the individual. Thatcherism is 'socially progressive' only by virtue of favouring the individual entirely at the expense of the community, whereas 'One Nation' Tories would be the opposite. Again, having largely grown up in the UK through the Seventies, I remember 'One Nation' Toryism - which perhaps gives me a broader sense of what the Conservatives are about than those who only see it as Thatcherism.
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PostSubject: Re: Room for an Irish Tory Party?   Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:31 am

ibis wrote:
It depends on what one means - 'socially progressive' can mean 'liberal', which the PDs originally were - in favour of the rights of the individual. Thatcherism is 'socially progressive' only by virtue of favouring the individual entirely at the expense of the community...

I see the PDs as favouring the individual over the community. They make all the right Liberal noises but they've been in government for 11 years and they haven't walked the walk, have they.
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PostSubject: Re: Room for an Irish Tory Party?   Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:58 am

Lestat wrote:
ibis wrote:
It depends on what one means - 'socially progressive' can mean 'liberal', which the PDs originally were - in favour of the rights of the individual. Thatcherism is 'socially progressive' only by virtue of favouring the individual entirely at the expense of the community...

I see the PDs as favouring the individual over the community. They make all the right Liberal noises but they've been in government for 11 years and they haven't walked the walk, have they.

I suspect that's because FF know what would really annoy their support base.
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PostSubject: Re: Room for an Irish Tory Party?   Sat Jul 12, 2008 2:10 am

Zhou_Enlai wrote:
Perhaps Cookiemonster could tell us whether there are any further Libertas meetings scheduled or if everything has gone quiet since the referendum result. I can't see see Libertas putting much more cash into this until it looks like a new referendum is about to be announced.
Cookiemonster knows, but he's saying nothing. Not with Ibis around anyway. 
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PostSubject: Re: Room for an Irish Tory Party?   Sat Jul 12, 2008 1:15 pm

cookiemonster wrote:
Zhou_Enlai wrote:
Perhaps Cookiemonster could tell us whether there are any further Libertas meetings scheduled or if everything has gone quiet since the referendum result. I can't see see Libertas putting much more cash into this until it looks like a new referendum is about to be announced.
Cookiemonster knows, but he's saying nothing. Not with Ibis around anyway.

Pft. When did I become the enemy?
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