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 The Athens Treaty / What they are saying on the Interweb

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PostSubject: The Athens Treaty / What they are saying on the Interweb   Mon Jun 16, 2008 2:49 pm

On debateurope, gayaussie has started a New Constitution or Treaty based on democratic principles and named after the birthplace of democracy from where the Constitution should be relaunched..

http://forums.ec.europa.eu/debateeurope/viewtopic.php?t=2617


Indymedia reporting the Irish Socialist Network wants to fight for a "democratic, social and de-militarised Europe"
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/87981

The Democratic Deficit Begins at Home - Irish Election.com from Saturday
http://www.irishelection.com/06/the-democratic-deficit-begins-at-home/
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PostSubject: Re: The Athens Treaty / What they are saying on the Interweb   Mon Jun 16, 2008 2:56 pm

Didn't Sparta kick the living sh_t out of Athens?

Perhaps their model needs to be tweaked a little with that and WMD in mind.
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PostSubject: Re: The Athens Treaty / What they are saying on the Interweb   Mon Jun 16, 2008 3:07 pm

Zhou_Enlai wrote:
Didn't Sparta kick the living sh_t out of Athens?

Only in the Pelloponesian War and only in concert with other Greek states. Athens alone took the Persians on in Marathon, and won. They aren't all airy-fairy philosophers in togas, oh no sirree!

Quote :
Perhaps their model needs to be tweaked a little with that and WMD in mind.

Perhaps.
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PostSubject: Re: The Athens Treaty / What they are saying on the Interweb   Mon Jun 16, 2008 3:09 pm

Zhou_Enlai wrote:
Didn't Sparta kick the living sh_t out of Athens?

Perhaps their model needs to be tweaked a little with that and WMD in mind.
Does Democracy = Openness to invasion / Attack ?
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PostSubject: Re: The Athens Treaty / What they are saying on the Interweb   Mon Jun 16, 2008 3:11 pm

Auditor #9 wrote:
Zhou_Enlai wrote:
Didn't Sparta kick the living sh_t out of Athens?

Perhaps their model needs to be tweaked a little with that and WMD in mind.
Does Democracy = Openness to invasion / Attack ?

Not necessarily, look at Rome's Republic which overwhelmed all monarchies before it from the 4th century BC to the 1st century BC.
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PostSubject: Re: The Athens Treaty / What they are saying on the Interweb   Mon Jun 16, 2008 3:16 pm

I don't think so, and if it did we would probably take our chance with it for freedom's sake.

Is it the Athenian model but that voting men should not sully themselves with work but rather should ponder life while foreign slaves to do their work? I can see this idea appealing to posters on internet politics forums Very Happy .
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PostSubject: Re: The Athens Treaty / What they are saying on the Interweb   Mon Jun 16, 2008 3:19 pm

Zhou_Enlai wrote:
I don't think so, and if it did we would probably take our chance with it for freedom's sake.

Is it the Athenian model but that voting men should not sully themselves with work but rather should ponder life while foreign slaves to do their work? I can see this idea appealing to posters on internet politics forums Very Happy .
Sophistry ! They'll be reading and studying us in Universities in thousands of years time Razz
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PostSubject: Re: The Athens Treaty / What they are saying on the Interweb   Mon Jun 16, 2008 3:26 pm

Auditor #9 wrote:
Zhou_Enlai wrote:
I don't think so, and if it did we would probably take our chance with it for freedom's sake.

Is it the Athenian model but that voting men should not sully themselves with work but rather should ponder life while foreign slaves to do their work? I can see this idea appealing to posters on internet politics forums Very Happy .
Sophistry ! They'll be reading and studying us in Universities in thousands of years time Razz

Definitely, Machine Nation is the measure of all things!
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PostSubject: Re: The Athens Treaty / What they are saying on the Interweb   Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:34 pm

Auditor #9 wrote:
On debateurope, gayaussie has started a New Constitution or Treaty based on democratic principles and named after the birthplace of democracy from where the Constitution should be relaunched..

http://forums.ec.europa.eu/debateeurope/viewtopic.php?t=2617


Indymedia reporting the Irish Socialist Network wants to fight for a "democratic, social and de-militarised Europe"
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/87981

The Democratic Deficit Begins at Home - Irish Election.com from Saturday
http://www.irishelection.com/06/the-democratic-deficit-begins-at-home/

Right, lets roll the sleeves up and do a little work here.
Where do we start on a New Democratic and Social Constitution for Europe ?
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PostSubject: Re: The Athens Treaty / What they are saying on the Interweb   Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:36 pm

Zhou_Enlai wrote:
I don't think so, and if it did we would probably take our chance with it for freedom's sake.

Is it the Athenian model but that voting men should not sully themselves with work but rather should ponder life while foreign slaves to do their work? I can see this idea appealing to posters on internet politics forums Very Happy .

The idea, indeed, was that one should be able to debate and inform oneself on the issues of the day - and of course do military practice.
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PostSubject: Re: The Athens Treaty / What they are saying on the Interweb   Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:59 pm

Greek democracy was directly participative rather than through election of representatives.

Quote :
It remains a unique and intriguing experiment in direct democracy where the people do not elect representatives to vote on their behalf but vote on legislation and executive bills in their own right

Wikipedia.

There is a case for more participative democracy, particularly now that information technology enables more complex voting and vote analysis. What the EU involves is electing representatives who then elect representatives who select representatives, or allow representatives to be selected from their numbers. At this remove, the question of who they are representing starts to come up. The Greeks just voted on stuff.
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PostSubject: Re: The Athens Treaty / What they are saying on the Interweb   Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:30 am

Participatory budgets have been going on in Port Alegre Brazil for a while. They maintain it's spreading around the world. Yeah right.

http://www.citymayors.com/finance/participatory_budget.html

Why the hell has nothing like this arisen here? Shouldn't we be able to assess as communities whether or not we should pay for rubbish collection or whether recycling can be organised or such and such - whether the council should or shouldn't buy more land for parks, walks, housing and local allotments etc.? Recently in Clare a redneck small-town council spent €5m on a run-down hotel which belonged to a local criminal with which they aim to use as bigger offices for the local council because the old office hadn't enough parking space around it - ffs. €5million is a fair whack and would buy a shitload of land for forestry, parks and local amenities. But did anyone in the town get a vote on this oh no.

Maybe we are out and out thick idiots.
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PostSubject: Re: The Athens Treaty / What they are saying on the Interweb   Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:56 pm

This is ibis' link from another thread (new political parties does what it says on the tin) where John Bruton is addressing the European Convention in Jan 2003 with regard to institutional reform (perhaps we should try to clarify what and who these bodies are and where they all fit in one day)
http://www.finegael.ie/news/index.cfm/type/details/nkey/21878

Quote :
Speech by John Bruton TD, at the European Convention on Tuesday 21st January 2003 on Institutions

I believe that our debate must provide answers to the questions asked of us by the people who set us up at Laeken.

They asked us specifically:

1. Should the President of the Commission be "directly elected by the citizens"? I say "Yes" to that and have a proposal on it.
2. They asked should a "European electoral constituency be created"? I say "Yes" to that too.
3. They asked should "the way we elect the European Parliament be revised"? I say "Yes". I say that we in the Convention should do that review, because we were asked to do so. I favour an electoral system that brings members of the European Parliament much closer to their constituents in each locality. This pre-supposes small constituencies, with a proportional representation system, and the avoidance of a list system that tends towards elitism.

The over-riding challenge is for Europe to create more democracy, more popular democracy. Democracy comes first on the list of topics in the Laeken declaration, before "transparency", and before "efficiency". The order is right, Europe needs more democracy. Europeans need to feel they can change their government at European level, just as they can do at home.

In that context, I believe the Franco-German proposal is to be regretted for two reasons:

First, it will upset the balance of the institutions and undermine the separation of powers between them, that is so vital to Europe's success. Second, it fails to respond to citizens' demands that they themselves, as citizens and voters, decide democratically on who governs Europe.

Where's John now when we need him ?
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PostSubject: Re: The Athens Treaty / What they are saying on the Interweb   Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:26 pm

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:
Auditor #9 wrote:
Zhou_Enlai wrote:
Didn't Sparta kick the living sh_t out of Athens?

Perhaps their model needs to be tweaked a little with that and WMD in mind.
Does Democracy = Openness to invasion / Attack ?

Not necessarily, look at Rome's Republic which overwhelmed all monarchies before it from the 4th century BC to the 1st century BC.

The roman republic was NOT democratic.
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PostSubject: Re: The Athens Treaty / What they are saying on the Interweb   Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:29 pm

Zhou_Enlai wrote:
I don't think so, and if it did we would probably take our chance with it for freedom's sake.

Is it the Athenian model but that voting men should not sully themselves with work but rather should ponder life while foreign slaves to do their work? I can see this idea appealing to posters on internet politics forums Very Happy .

There wasn't much room for women in that model either. Shocked
Do women shave their legs and did they burn their bras for a return to that? No thank you...
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PostSubject: Re: The Athens Treaty / What they are saying on the Interweb   Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:17 pm

You would first need to consider what are the levels of
administration and how power, accountability and responsibility is split
between the local, regional etc.


What about a Bill of Responsibilities, to set the tone,
followed by considering if the right to vote is a right or a privilege; or a solemn
responsibility.


Let us not forget corrupt politicians and officials. Current
laws don’t work so we have to devise a stronger deterrent. Perhaps dragging
them naked through the streets. If we caught enough of them and someone took a
few photos it would be considered art.


On Athens always send someone who knows a bit about fighting
to lead your troops especially in places like Sicily. So we need a professional
army, and didn’t their strategy rely heavily on their navy so Air Force needed along with armoured divisions.


Perhaps we should also consider Sparta, how its declining
population (of Spartans) contributed to its decline.
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PostSubject: Re: The Athens Treaty / What they are saying on the Interweb   Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:41 pm

riadach wrote:
Ard-Taoiseach wrote:
Auditor #9 wrote:
Zhou_Enlai wrote:
Didn't Sparta kick the living sh_t out of Athens?

Perhaps their model needs to be tweaked a little with that and WMD in mind.
Does Democracy = Openness to invasion / Attack ?

Not necessarily, look at Rome's Republic which overwhelmed all monarchies before it from the 4th century BC to the 1st century BC.

The roman republic was NOT democratic.

Perhaps not, but it certainly was a democratic step up from the monarchies of the East.
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PostSubject: Re: The Athens Treaty / What they are saying on the Interweb   Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:49 pm

I wonder how far we've come, really, in the intervening years.

Has anyone seen Respvblica on p.ie? He was a great man for discussions of democracy...
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PostSubject: Re: The Athens Treaty / What they are saying on the Interweb   Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:53 pm

Kate P wrote:
I wonder how far we've come, really, in the intervening years.

The Roman system was the foundation for the US system of governance. The two are quite similar in respect of having elected judges, electoral colleges and so on.

Quote :
Has anyone seen Respvblica on p.ie? He was a great man for discussions of democracy...

He was indeed.
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PostSubject: Re: The Athens Treaty / What they are saying on the Interweb   Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:05 pm

I pm'd him but he hasn't replied yet.
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PostSubject: Re: The Athens Treaty / What they are saying on the Interweb   Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:13 pm

riadach wrote:
Ard-Taoiseach wrote:
Auditor #9 wrote:
Zhou_Enlai wrote:
Didn't Sparta kick the living sh_t out of Athens?

Perhaps their model needs to be tweaked a little with that and WMD in mind.
Does Democracy = Openness to invasion / Attack ?

Not necessarily, look at Rome's Republic which overwhelmed all monarchies before it from the 4th century BC to the 1st century BC.

The roman republic was NOT democratic.

Isn't it a scrap worrying that we are looking back a few thousand years to find more satisfactory models of democracy than the EU ?
Now we have a generally literate and educated universal adult citizenry, and excellent means of communications. We should be light years of the Greeks and Romans. I agree with Auditor #9 that there is plenty of scope for more democracy in the Greek style, in which we vote on what to do with our local government budget. I visited Milton Keynes a couple of years ago when they were having a local referendum on their budget, and people voted in a higher local property tax to pay for better services.

National government and European government should be under our control.
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PostSubject: Re: The Athens Treaty / What they are saying on the Interweb   Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:19 pm

cactus flower wrote:


Isn't it a scrap worrying that we are looking back a few thousand years to find more satisfactory models of democracy than the EU ?
Now we have a generally literate and educated universal adult citizenry, and excellent means of communications. We should be light years of the Greeks and Romans.

Well, we are. Women, slaves, people without property and so on could not vote in either Greek or Roman elections. Our inclusion of these groups shows that we are indeed light-years ahead of them in this regard. Epileptics were discriminated against in Roman elections since they were asked to leave the field else their seizures cast a curse on the proceedings.

Quote :
I agree with Auditor #9 that there is plenty of scope for more democracy in the Greek style, in which we vote on what to do with our local government budget. I visited Milton Keynes a couple of years ago when they were having a local referendum on their budget, and people voted in a higher local property tax to pay for better services.

National government and European government should be under our control.

Doesn't this also happen in Switzerland? The government forms from all the parties in parliament and the people form the opposition, and governmental decisions must be ratified by the people through plebiscites. I hope Slim Buddha can fill us in more on that style of government which includes the mechanism of referenda even more than our Bunreacht allows.
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PostSubject: Re: The Athens Treaty / What they are saying on the Interweb   Tue Jun 17, 2008 11:04 pm

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:
cactus flower wrote:


Isn't it a scrap worrying that we are looking back a few thousand years to find more satisfactory models of democracy than the EU ?
Now we have a generally literate and educated universal adult citizenry, and excellent means of communications. We should be light years of the Greeks and Romans.

Well, we are. Women, slaves, people without property and so on could not vote in either Greek or Roman elections. Our inclusion of these groups shows that we are indeed light-years ahead of them in this regard. Epileptics were discriminated against in Roman elections since they were asked to leave the field else their seizures cast a curse on the proceedings.

Quote :
I agree with Auditor #9 that there is plenty of scope for more democracy in the Greek style, in which we vote on what to do with our local government budget. I visited Milton Keynes a couple of years ago when they were having a local referendum on their budget, and people voted in a higher local property tax to pay for better services.

National government and European government should be under our control.

Doesn't this also happen in Switzerland? The government forms from all the parties in parliament and the people form the opposition, and governmental decisions must be ratified by the people through plebiscites. I hope Slim Buddha can fill us in more on that style of government which includes the mechanism of referenda even more than our Bunreacht allows.

Is that how SarMerkely sees the Irish, do you think ?
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PostSubject: Re: The Athens Treaty / What they are saying on the Interweb   Tue Jun 17, 2008 11:07 pm

cactus flower wrote:


Is that how SarMerkely sees the Irish, do you think ?

Ahhh...Well, you can see it in that way, but we were allowed to vote in the first place. For us to be truly equated with the epileptics, we wouldn't have been allowed to have a referendum in the first place.
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