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 What the Mainlanders are saying

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PostSubject: What the Mainlanders are saying   Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:27 pm

Die Welt
Gut, dass die Iren Nein zum EU-Vertrag sagen

Le Monde
Les Irlandais en passe de rejeter le traité de Lisbonne

L'Unita
Referendum sul Trattato Ue, l'Irlanda dice no
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PostSubject: Re: What the Mainlanders are saying   Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:40 pm

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:
Die Welt
Gut, dass die Iren Nein zum EU-Vertrag sagen

That German paper is very happy with us, their delighted we rejected the Treaty. Only 25% of those polled on that questionnaire want to go ahead without us. 66% want the Treaty re-negotiated. Only 5% want us to leave, Gott sei Dank!

Quote :
Le Monde
Les Irlandais en passe de rejeter le traité de Lisbonne

arnaudherve, I'll leave that to you.

Quote :
L'Unita
Referendum sul Trattato Ue, l'Irlanda dice no

Very good.
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PostSubject: Re: What the Mainlanders are saying   Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:45 pm

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:Die Welt
Gut, dass die Iren Nein zum EU-Vertrag sagen

That
German paper is very happy with us, their delighted we rejected the
Treaty. Only 25% of those polled on that questionnaire want to go ahead
without us. 66% want the Treaty re-negotiated. Only 5% want us to
leave, Gott sei Dank!

Is that the backlash rte is going on about? Rolling Eyes
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PostSubject: Re: What the Mainlanders are saying   Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:48 pm

SeathrúnCeitinn wrote:
EvotingMachine0197 wrote:Die Welt
Gut, dass die Iren Nein zum EU-Vertrag sagen

That
German paper is very happy with us, their delighted we rejected the
Treaty. Only 25% of those polled on that questionnaire want to go ahead
without us. 66% want the Treaty re-negotiated. Only 5% want us to
leave, Gott sei Dank!

Is that the backlash rte is going on about? Rolling Eyes

It's fairly muted, isn't it? I'll go look for Austrian newspapers to see what they're saying about us.
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PostSubject: Re: What the Mainlanders are saying   Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:53 pm

The Wiener Zeitung has a fairly neutral article, commenting on how richer people voted for it, while rural/poorer people leant towards the No.
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PostSubject: Re: What the Mainlanders are saying   Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:54 pm

Ireland turns its back on the EU (more like 'gives the cold shoulder')

http://www.elpais.com/global/

El Mundo: The Irish say 'No' to Lisbon ... The EU is plunged into deep crisis (a bit hyperbolic if my spanish is any way accurate)

http://www.elmundo.es/index.html?a=FOX9c6a011fff4b4bd3db12d0f473c6ec0a&t=1213368283
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PostSubject: Re: What the Mainlanders are saying   Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:59 pm

Une réaction franco-allemande au résultat du référendum La France et l'Allemagne réagiront ensemble au résultat du référendum en Irlande, a déclaré, vendredi 13 juin, Nicolas Sarkozy. "J'attendrai les résultats définitifs", a déclaré à la presse le président de la République en marge d'une visite à l'hôpital de Bourges. "Par ailleurs nous avons convenu avec la chancelière allemande Angela Merkel que nous ferions une réaction commune. C'est à ce moment-là qu'on dira ce qu'on en pense", a-t-il dit, sans préciser quelle forme exactement prendrait cette réaction commune. Nicolas Sarkozy et Angela Merkel se sont entendus sur une initiative commune pour l'Irlande lors de leur rencontre en Bavière, le 9 juin. – (Avec AFP et Reuters.)

It appears that Nicolas wants to wait for the final results and have a word with Angela before they say what they think?

His government seem divided between asking us to "go again" and reaching some kind of judicial agreement with Ireland without revisiting the Lisbon Treaty.
Quote :
Le premier ministre français, François Fillon, a averti jeudi soir qu'il n'y aurait "plus de traité de Lisbonne" en cas de rejet par les Irlandais, "sauf à reprendre le dialogue avec le peuple irlandais". "On verra l'initiative qu'il faudra prendre", a-t-il ajouté. En cas de victoire du "non", il faudrait trouver un "arrangement juridique" entre l'Irlande et les 26 autres membres de l'UE, a estimé vendredi le secrétaire d'Etat français aux affaires européennes, Jean-Pierre Jouyet.

Arnaud - is that it ?
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PostSubject: Re: What the Mainlanders are saying   Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:00 pm

Shock and crisis for the EU then, according to El Mundo?
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PostSubject: Re: What the Mainlanders are saying   Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:02 pm

cactus flower wrote:
Shock and crisis for the EU then, according to El Mundo?

That's it exactly.
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PostSubject: Re: What the Mainlanders are saying   Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:07 pm

El Mundo - ye'd nearly read it yourselves - I'll copy and translate the El Mundo article into this post as best I can.
Quote :
EDUARDO SUÁREZ (Enviado especial) | EFE

DUBLÍN (IRLANDA).- El ministro irlandés de Justicia e Interior, Dermot Ahern, ha aceptado en la Radiotelevisión Irlandesa (RTE) la victoria del "no" en el referéndum sobre(on/about) el Tratado de Lisboa celebrado(takes place) este jueves(thurs).
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PostSubject: Re: What the Mainlanders are saying   Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:08 pm

From the Sun - U.K.
Quote :

Bob Crow, general secretary of transport union the RMT, stepped up demands for a British referendum in response to the Irish result.


"The EU Constitution, whatever it may now be called, is an anti-democratic privatisers’ charter and would have undermined the right of working people to defend their jobs," he said.

"The Irish referendum result is a massive victory for democracy and the Constitution is now dead in the water, despite our own Government’s attempt to railroad it through without the referendum the British people were promised."

The Mail

Quote :
'The legal position is that if one country rejects the Treaty, then it falls,' said Professor Matt Qvortrup of Scotland's Robert Gordon University.

'A no verdict in Ireland will also adversely affect the current ratification process of a number of other EU states like Britain, the Czech Republic, Poland and Denmark.'

Prof Qvortrup said it was unclear who would take the blame if the Treaty collapsed.

'As individual member state governments negotiated the terms, heads are unlikely to roll in the EU Commission,' he added.

Financial markets will probably not be affected by a negative result as the Treaty does not have immediate economic consequences, unlike the turmoil caused when Denmark rejected The Maastricht Treaty in the early 1990s.

Ireland is the only EU country to have held a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, though 18 of the 27 members states have already ratified it.


Quote :
Downing Street has said they will push on with the ratification process regardless, although the the UK No campaign is expected to beDowning Street moved to reassure EU partners that it 'has no intention of pulling the plug', although a 'no' result would provide a massive boost to those in Britain opposed to the treaty.

Opposition: The 'no' campaign was slick compared to the pro-treaty effort
Government sources said a Bill to make legal the document, which hands swathes of power to Brussels, will continue its path through Parliament.
The Commons has already approved the treaty and it is now in the Lords awaiting its final reading.

The Mail also said
Quote :
Since it joined the EU in 1973, Ireland has pocketed billions in grants which have transformed its economy. ..
During the campaign the European Commission agreed a deliberate policy to shelve controversial issues, such as plans for an EU army.


Last edited by cactus flower on Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: What the Mainlanders are saying   Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:09 pm

Frankfurt Allgemeine: Irland schockt Europa.

They're not as positive to us, they're in favour of the Lisbon Treaty since they believe it will make the EU more effective.
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PostSubject: Re: What the Mainlanders are saying   Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:25 pm

The fall of the Euro speaks loudest.
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PostSubject: Re: What the Mainlanders are saying   Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:27 pm

cactus flower wrote:
The fall of the Euro speaks loudest.

This is what the €uro is trading at now, that is some fall from the €1.60 it was at before.
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PostSubject: Re: What the Mainlanders are saying   Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:38 pm

The Danes are saying it's a crisis

54 pct. sagde nej: EU’s top klar til krisestyring
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PostSubject: Re: What the Mainlanders are saying   Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:39 pm

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:
The Danes are saying it's a crisis

54 pct. sagde nej: EU’s top klar til krisestyring

That'll throw their plan to have a referendum on Maastricht opt-outs, then.
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PostSubject: Re: What the Mainlanders are saying   Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:58 pm

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/politics/threelinewhip/june2008/thank-you-ireland.htm

aaarrrghh - supported by Telegraph readers. I have to go and have a shower.
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PostSubject: Re: What the Mainlanders are saying   Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:36 pm

cactus flower wrote:
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/politics/threelinewhip/june2008/thank-you-ireland.htm

aaarrrghh - supported by Telegraph readers. I have to go and have a shower.

Some funny comments in there. Like this one.

Quote :
So the Northern Irish DUP ( the "good guys" remember )sell us down
the river by removing 800 years of democracy and freedom and then, the
next day, the Irish ( the "bad guys" remember ) save our bacon by
raising two fingers to the pig trough of Brussels. We owe both of them.
We should remember.
And This
Quote :
Well done Ireland, now don't let them bully you into another vote. When
will politicians realise the populations doesn't want a European State,
Trading block fine, lack of borders fine, ease of Euro voluntary, but
loss of freedom no, yet more military coalitions no, more bureaucracy
no, more tax no... leave us alone.

Thank you Ireland.
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PostSubject: Re: What the Mainlanders are saying   Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:38 pm

If Hitler loved apples would you stop eatin them?
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PostSubject: Re: What the Mainlanders are saying   Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:16 pm

SeathrúnCeitinn wrote:
If Hitler loved apples would you stop eatin them?

Who me ? Ehhhh........No.
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PostSubject: Re: What the Mainlanders are saying   Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:26 pm

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:
SeathrúnCeitinn wrote:
If Hitler loved apples would you stop eatin them?

Who me ? Ehhhh........No.

Was more directed at cf and her distaste for the average telegraph reader which I whole heartedly share
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PostSubject: Re: What the Mainlanders are saying   Sat Jun 14, 2008 9:35 pm

I think Le Monde is talking about a two-tier Europe today in its editorial.
Le Monde Editorial - Une chance pour l'Europe ?


Quote :
Le non irlandais au traité de Lisbonne a replongé l'Union européenne dans la crise institutionnelle qui la mine depuis une dizaine d'années. La fin de la guerre froide et de la division de l'Europe l'a placée face à un dilemme : elle se montre incapable d'adapter son fonctionnement aux élargissements successifs, alors que l'accroissement du nombre de pays membres rend de plus en plus indispensable la réforme des institutions. after the Cold War it became evident that she needed to be able to incorporate more states and thus to be able to reform her own institutions ???

Dans l'immédiat, le rejet par les Irlandais du traité simplifié cher à Nicolas Sarkozy va peser sur la présidence française de l'UE. Quelle que soit la volonté du président de la République de se concentrer sur les grands chantiers proches des préoccupations des citoyens (immigration, énergie, agriculture...), les six prochains mois seront parasités par les questions institutionnelles. Institutional reform will be on the French presidency's table for the next six months along with the normal preoccupations of it's citizen: agriculture, immigration, energy

Or il n'existe pas de "plan B". Français et Allemands avaient annoncé une initiative commune en cas de victoire du non au référendum irlandais. Leur ambition s'est limitée à un appel à la poursuite du processus de ratification du traité de Lisbonne. The French and Germans have a plan B ?? and it is to continue the process of ratification of Lisbon... ??

Que peuvent faire les Européens ? Après une hypothétique ratification par vingt-six Etats, placer les Irlandais devant leurs responsabilités et les obliger à revoter, en espérant que, comme en 2002, ils se raviseront ? i.e. the 26 will ratify and we'll have to do a Nice Mettre Dublin "en congé" d'Union européenne ? putting Dublin in Limbo Aller de l'avant en appliquant les articles du texte de Lisbonne qui n'exigent pas une réforme des traités ? ???????

Aucune de ces solutions n'est satisfaisante. EITHER? of these solutions is not good enough Venant après le rejet en 2005 par les Français et les Néerlandais du traité constitutionnel préparé sous la houlette de Valéry Giscard d'Estaing, le non irlandais montre qu'il n'est pas possible de réformer l'Union si la règle de l'unanimité n'est pas abandonnée. Or pour passer outre en l'état actuel des traités, il faut... l'unanimité.

Pour sortir de ce cercle vicieux, il n'y a qu'une possibilité : créer, à côté de l'Union européenne actuelle, une avant-garde composée de pays prêts à accepter la règle de la majorité qualifiée pour approfondir l'intégration. L'idée n'est pas nouvelle, mais elle n'a jamais été mise en oeuvre. Elle suppose des dirigeants convaincus que l'unité européenne est une ambition nécessaire. S'il aidait à cette prise de conscience, le vote des Irlandais serait finalement une chance pour l'Europe.
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PostSubject: Re: What the Mainlanders are saying   Sat Jun 14, 2008 11:17 pm

Just borrowed another of arnaudherve's posts from p.ie .. hopefully he might help us get to the bottom of all this caca

arnaudherve wrote:
Hi all. From what I observe, Irish citizens are shocked by the many declarations of officials throughout Europe according to which the Lisbon process must continue. Nothing more natural than being shocked by the non respect of a democratic vote.

However, I suppose many of you also wonder what all those declarations are all about in reality, since, the Lisbon treaty being a legal process and not a personal fancy, it is rejected in law as soon as one of the Member States has refused. Why then would persons in high public charges declare publicly that they want to do something illegal?

We also observe on the Continent a tsunami of press articles explaining that the Irish are evil or illiterate, that Europe is in "crisis", and so on. But then again, there is a difference between criticism and exclusion from the human species. If criticism is excessive, it becomes less credible, and reading the same phrases or almost the same articles throughout Europe may make you wonder if it is sincere.

Well, I just discovered today the real strategic intention, reading my local newspaper. Sometimes local newspapers are revealing because that are less strictly subject to Eurocratic control.

It appears that all those declarations are not aimed towards the Irish, but towards the citizens of the rest of Europe. Including the declarations of your own government. It appears that the real intention is to prevent your example from spreading everywhere. Hence the vehement excommunication.

Therefore it seems to me that the best reply is not to feel offended, but to quickly find the ways of explaining to the citizens of other EU countries too what extent your decision was moderate, that you are not against any sort of European cooperation, and that saying no was politically legitimate and legal.

As far as I can see it, this could take the form of publications in the websites of the various No organizations, and also by organizing grassroots meetings on the continent, with your main orators as guest speakers.

Just my two (euro) cents.
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PostSubject: Re: What the Mainlanders are saying   Sat Jun 14, 2008 11:19 pm

Here is some of the article he quotes from his local paper..

Quote :
Europe. Eviter la contagion du « non »
L ’Irlande a clairement dit « non » au traité de Lisbonne . Et l’ Europe est à nouveau plongée dans l ’ incertitude. Car si des ajustements peuvent être proposés aux Irlandais, rien ne dit que d’autres pays ne voudront pas du même coup se prononcer à nouveau sur le traité.
De notre correspondante à Bruxelles. Ils s’étaient préparés au pire. Ils avaient raison. Les Vingt-Sept chefs d’État et de gouvernement européens qui ont signé il y a six mois le traité de Lisbonne se retrouvent à nouveau face à un imbroglio institutionnel et politique. Mais cette fois-ci, ils n’attendront pas deux ans pour en sortir. Le plan « I », comme Irlande, est en préparation. Jeudi et vendredi prochains, ils se réunissent à Bruxelles avec une idée fixe : ne pas laisser ce nouveau « non » dégénérer en crise européenne et en faire un problème strictement irlandais. La chancelière allemande Angela Merkel, le président français Nicolas Sarkozy ont lancé hier soir un appel conjoint au Premier Ministre de l’Irlande, Brian Cowen, dans ce sens. « L’Irlande doit nous trouver une solution », déclarait hier l’eurodéputé Alain Lamassoure (UMP). N’en déplaise aux partisans français du « non » qui exultaient vendredi soir, on est très loin de la situation de 2005.

Dix-huit pays ont déjà ratifié le traité et ils devraient être 24 à l’avoir fait avant l’été. Le vote des Irlandais (six millions sur une population d’un demi-milliard) n’empêchera probablement pas le traité de Lisbonne d’entrer en vigueur, sinon le 1 e r janvier 2009 comme c’était prévu, au moins dans les mois qui suivront.

Eviter la contagion du « non »
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PostSubject: Re: What the Mainlanders are saying   Sun Jun 15, 2008 12:11 am

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:
Die Welt
Gut, dass die Iren Nein zum EU-Vertrag sagen

Le Monde
Les Irlandais en passe de rejeter le traité de Lisbonne

L'Unita
Referendum sul Trattato Ue, l'Irlanda dice no


That's a very interesting German opinion/editorial piece and is overall quite critical of the way that Lisbon has been handled.

It argues that no matter what it's called, the EU Constitution has already been rejected twice and that to put it before the Irish again - even with some amendments made, would undermine the legitimacy of the referendum principle and Project Europe.

There is praise for elements of the Treaty that are seen to improve democracy but itquestions the urgency for efficiency when it has been shown in research that the EU is not less capable of making decisions now that there are 27 states than it was before the expansion into the East.

It also makes this extraordinarily critical statement which strikes me as a) being something we might have heard here in less enlightened Lisbon times, b) as peculiarly strident view for a conservative newspaper to take and c) perhaps a sign of where German anxieties are far removed from the rhetoric of Merkel.

"So wurde der Verfassungstext zusammengestrichen, wobei alle wesentlichen Bestandteile erhalten blieben, und mit einem neuen Namen erneut zur Abstimmung vorgelegt. Wobei diesmal nur die Parlamente abstimmen durften, in denen ja die Parteien der Staatschefs, die das Regelwerk hinter verschlossenen Türen aushandelten und anschließend unterzeichneten, die Mehrheit haben. Da möchte man mit dem weiland König von Sachsen ausrufen: „Scheene Demokraten seid ihr!“

"Therefore the text of the constitution was taken apart, keeping all essential elements and then presented for voting. But this time only the parliaments were allowed to vote, parliaments in which indeed the parties of the national leaders are in the majority, those who negotiated and subsequently signed off onthe rulebook behind closed doors. In such a case one would be inclined to cry out with the one-time king of Saxony "It's fine democrats ye are."

I'll have a look at some other German-speaking publications and see what the verdict is. Die Welt doesn't speak for everyone.



More interesting are the comments. I just read the first ten and all refer to the Irish as heroes who stood up to the Big Guys and/or mention that many in Europe would have reached the same decision.
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