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 Still Not Decided ?

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PostSubject: Still Not Decided ?   Wed Jun 11, 2008 2:22 pm

Am I the only one left who is still not decided. I see that EVM and Ard Taoiseach are finding it a difficult call too.
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PostSubject: Re: Still Not Decided ?   Wed Jun 11, 2008 2:52 pm

It is really great that so many people are thinking hard about what the right way to go is cactus flower.

I just hope that as many people as possible do what you have done and then make a conscious decision based on what they feel is right.

My fear is that fear itself will dominate the poll as a result of late Yes scaremongering. That people in doubt will go with this advice from the father of Hillaire Belloc's Jim -

And always keep a-hold of Nurse
For fear of finding something worse.


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PostSubject: Re: Still Not Decided ?   Wed Jun 11, 2008 2:59 pm

Helium Three wrote:
It is really great that so many people are thinking hard about what the right way to go is cactus flower.

I just hope that as many people as possible do what you have done and then make a conscious decision based on what they feel is right.

Fully agree.

Quote :
My fear is that fear itself will dominate the poll as a result of late Yes scaremongering.

In fairness Helium, I think that applies equally to both sides. And I wish to add that I think this entire political affair has been poorly presented to the people by both sides.
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PostSubject: Re: Still Not Decided ?   Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:50 pm

Interesting opinion from Kevin Myers in today's Indo - it's very nicely written too, in my humble opinion.

Vote 'No' and say 'Non' to French-style bad government
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PostSubject: Re: Still Not Decided ?   Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:54 pm

I am considering using Eenie Meenie Minie Mo as a means of deciding which of the boxes to tick on the ballot paper. The gods of Eenie Meenie Minie Mo are never wrong!
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PostSubject: Re: Still Not Decided ?   Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:56 pm

evm you are right of course -

my point is that the late scaremongering from the Yes may sway it, because their message is carried up and amplified by the majority of the media outlets starting with RTE. Which is definitely not to say the No scaremongers are any better!
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PostSubject: Re: Still Not Decided ?   Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:00 pm

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:
Helium Three wrote:
It is really great that so many people are thinking hard about what the right way to go is cactus flower.

I just hope that as many people as possible do what you have done and then make a conscious decision based on what they feel is right.

Fully agree.

Quote :
My fear is that fear itself will dominate the poll as a result of late Yes scaremongering.

In fairness Helium, I think that applies equally to both sides. And I wish to add that I think this entire political affair has been poorly presented to the people by both sides.

There has been some great points and coverage. The audience on the last Q&A were excellent and Prime Time wasn't bad. The Forum for Europe was in position good and early and the Referendum Commission were in place too. There was some good internet discussion too and, thanks to IBEC and Peadar O'Broin, excellent internet resources.

The only fly in this ointment has been the disingenuous tactics of some campaigner who have sought to cloud the issues rather than illuminate them. All in all, I think we have come a long way since Maastricht and Nice 1 and that the people are being listened to since they gave the Government a kick in the arse over Nice 1.
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PostSubject: Re: Still Not Decided ?   Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:17 pm

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:
I am considering using Eenie Meenie Minie Mo as a means of deciding which of the boxes to tick on the ballot paper. The gods of Eenie Meenie Minie Mo are never wrong!

The answer rhymes with 'mo'. As an addendum is anybody else sick of the amount of people who have supposedly anguished over their decision day and night but crash, bang , wallop have been convinced by somebody's point of view which dovetails exactly with previous opinions expressed by the individual in the various media. I don't know how many contributors to radio/television/internet fora have started out pretending that they are genuinely undecided only to cynically plump for one side or tother. It is as old as time itself and a pathetic tactic. Suspect
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PostSubject: Re: Still Not Decided ?   Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:22 pm

SeathrúnCeitinn wrote:
Ard-Taoiseach wrote:
I am considering using Eenie Meenie Minie Mo as a means of deciding which of the boxes to tick on the ballot paper. The gods of Eenie Meenie Minie Mo are never wrong!

The answer rhymes with 'mo'. As an addendum is anybody else sick of the amount of people who have supposedly anguished over their decision day and night but crash, bang , wallop have been convinced by somebody's point of view which dovetails exactly with previous opinions expressed by the individual in the various media. I don't know how many contributors to radio/television/internet fora have started out pretending that they are genuinely undecided only to cynically plump for one side or tother. It is as old as time itself and a pathetic tactic. Suspect

I've expressed my feelings on that one elsewhere on MN. The "oh, that persuades me who was previously uncertain even though I've argued repeatedly for people to vote the way I've just now decided to" is almost as unpleasant as the jeering at people who disagree and the chorus of adulation given to points that have been made a thousand times before. Reminds me of the Dufflepuds in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader.
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PostSubject: Re: Still Not Decided ?   Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:24 pm

SeathrúnCeitinn wrote:
Ard-Taoiseach wrote:
I am considering using Eenie Meenie Minie Mo as a means of deciding which of the boxes to tick on the ballot paper. The gods of Eenie Meenie Minie Mo are never wrong!

The answer rhymes with 'mo'. As an addendum is anybody else sick of the amount of people who have supposedly anguished over their decision day and night but crash, bang , wallop have been convinced by somebody's point of view which dovetails exactly with previous opinions expressed by the individual in the various media. I don't know how many contributors to radio/television/internet fora have started out pretending that they are genuinely undecided only to cynically plump for one side or tother. It is as old as time itself and a pathetic tactic. Suspect

I hope you're not talking about me, SeathrúnCeitinn. I'm as genuinely befuddled as it is possible to be. confused If work allows today, I will weary you all with my horrendous lists of pros and cons for voting either way. My only comfort is that I think the battles over interpretation are probably more important than the content of the Treaty itself, and they are yet to come.
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PostSubject: Re: Still Not Decided ?   Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:35 pm

cactus flower wrote:
SeathrúnCeitinn wrote:
Ard-Taoiseach wrote:
I am considering using Eenie Meenie Minie Mo as a means of deciding which of the boxes to tick on the ballot paper. The gods of Eenie Meenie Minie Mo are never wrong!

The answer rhymes with 'mo'. As an addendum is anybody else sick of the amount of people who have supposedly anguished over their decision day and night but crash, bang , wallop have been convinced by somebody's point of view which dovetails exactly with previous opinions expressed by the individual in the various media. I don't know how many contributors to radio/television/internet fora have started out pretending that they are genuinely undecided only to cynically plump for one side or tother. It is as old as time itself and a pathetic tactic. Suspect

I hope you're not talking about me, SeathrúnCeitinn. I'm as genuinely befuddled as it is possible to be. confused If work allows today, I will weary you all with my horrendous lists of pros and cons for voting either way. My only comfort is that I think the battles over interpretation are probably more important than the content of the Treaty itself, and they are yet to come.

Not at all Cactus (or Ard-T) I thought that would be a given as I've read a great deal of your contributions. I speak of a lot of contributors on p.ie and those fake undecided that rte produce, like Gemma Hussey at the weekend, for example.
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PostSubject: Re: Still Not Decided ?   Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:58 pm

Yes - I heard her, and it was quite funny.
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PostSubject: Re: Still Not Decided ?   Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:17 pm

cactus flower wrote:
Am I the only one left who is still not decided. I see that EVM and Ard Taoiseach are finding it a difficult call too.

Whats this CF - a sort of damascene reversion, if I can put it like that? I thought you were voting No?
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PostSubject: Re: Still Not Decided ?   Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:59 pm

Aragon wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
Am I the only one left who is still not decided. I see that EVM and Ard Taoiseach are finding it a difficult call too.

Whats this CF - a sort of damascene reversion, if I can put it like that? I thought you were voting No?

I thought I was too - but in the last couple of days some additional information/thoughts has hit me. I've spatter posted about it - I'll try and pull it together tonight and post.
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PostSubject: Re: Still Not Decided ?   Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:19 pm

I too am undecided. Maybe it's because we have weak, girly brains, CF, which are unable to deal with the big manly Treaty. It certainly what one of my politics lecturers suggested was the case after Nice I, when looking at why women were more inclined to vote no.
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PostSubject: Re: Still Not Decided ?   Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:20 pm

That wasn't very Nice.
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PostSubject: Re: Still Not Decided ?   Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:24 pm

TheBear wrote:
I too am undecided. Maybe it's because we have weak, girly brains, CF, which are unable to deal with the big manly Treaty. It certainly what one of my politics lecturers suggested was the case after Nice I, when looking at why women were more inclined to vote no.
Patsy McKenna knows how she's voting Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Still Not Decided ?   Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:17 pm

I have never been a big fan of the European Project, primarily because I was unhappy about the levels of ignorance on the topic in Ireland. I am happier now that people have had the opportunity to read up on the ins and outs of the Treaty and politicians have had to argue the specifics.

There are pluses and minuses in this for me.

Pluses:

- The European Union should have the greater efficiency and flexibility it needs to address the problems of Food Security, Climate Change and Energy Security.

- We get equality with big countries in the Commission.

- "No taxation without representation" is still there.

- Co-decision has been extended making things more democratic.

- Community law must comply with human rights.

- Europe is gaining further independence from the USA in foreign policy which will hopefully lead to less unilateralism from the USA. This is important when the USA is seeking to make Europe the theatre for the next war.

- international law is respected and reaffirmed in the Irish Constitution.

- There will be greater transparency in Council meetings so the media can let us know if our politicians and civil servants are performing or not.

- The Presidency will stop changing every six months meaning there wil be less interruptions to the plan and that countries will not play out political differences by thwarting the Presidency.

- Our Treaty negotiating team involved some of my favourite politicians including John Bruton, Pronsias De Rossa and Bertie Ahern. I trust them to represent me.

- The Treaty acknowledges that immigration is a problem and it must be addressed union wide.

- The Treaty will have to pass through the democratic processes which are laid out in each country which makes up the population of 500 million. I don't buy the French/Dutch referenda argument.

- Europe will be showing an example of peaceful national co-operation to the World which may be emulated in South America and elsewhere.

Minuses:

- Technological progress is enshrined in the Treaty. Economics and Technology should serve the people, not the other way around.

- The Trade Unions and the Employers are happy. I'd prefer if they were both unhappy as they are two selfish sets of interest groups.

- There is more of an emphasis on defence. While I want independence from US dominance this is a double edged sword. I don't want Europe to subsidize the European arms industry as that will lead to wars. I think we should be able to keep those who would fight energy wars at bay though.

- The Treaty is designed to be debated and passed by legislators. whereas this may suit the systems in place for the other 496 million people in the Union it clearly does not suit us. I would much prefer if it only affected parts of our constitution and we could see things more clearly. I am not sure what type of cases ECJ will get to decide on in relation to the Charter of Fundamental Human Rights. Will national laws including the Constitution as well as European Laws be subject to the Charter?

Overall, it is a Yes vote for me. I think that this is the best plan we can get for Europe and for Ireland and we should take it.
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PostSubject: Re: Still Not Decided ?   Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:21 pm

I have to go very soon so can't investigate your points fully but you're essentially saying that some war is inevitable and it'd be better to be inside the EU than don't know? Shouldn't we be raising our voices to quell bellicosity not invite it?
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PostSubject: Re: Still Not Decided ?   Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:28 pm

I didn't mean to say that. I am against providing a mechanism for the arms industry to lobby and gain power but I think we should have the capability to promote adherence to international law. The risk of war should be lessened if the EU is a coherent force in that regard.
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