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 Galway Luas (Gluas) highlighted in Green Party Plan

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PostSubject: Galway Luas (Gluas) highlighted in Green Party Plan   Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:11 pm

Quote :
GREENS WANT GALWAY LUAS PROJECT PRIORITISED
Tue 20th May 2008

The Green party wants the Government to give priority to a LUAS-style public transport project for Galway.

Launching its submission to the Sustainable Transport Programme today, the Greens argued it's not a good idea for the government to give the go-ahead for major road projects like the outer orbital route in Dublin.

The party says public transport projects like a LUAS for Galway and Cork and the Dublin Metro should instead be given priority.
http://www.galwaynews.ie/3766-greens-want-galway-luas-project-prioritised

Galway is a wonderful town and could benefit hugely from a more pedestrian-orientated park-and-ride plan I feel, though the rain might deter many from availing of such a system if it gets put in. The traffic there can be fairly bad though I always found it moves well enough. The prevalence of traffic diminishes the outdoor atmosphere that Galway should have more of and which a system like this, if introduced along with further pedestrianisation, could well bring to the city.



http://gluas.com/technical-details/
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PostSubject: Re: Galway Luas (Gluas) highlighted in Green Party Plan   Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:21 pm

Any overwhelming reason why it has to be electric?

A light rail system with diesel engines would do the trick, for a much lower price. The only disadvantage I can think of is that it would have slightly lower acceleration.

There are other advantages with diesel, apart from price: No new poles with wires everywhere (and Galway is so windy they would require a lot of maintenance...), no complexity, less to go wrong.

Modern diesel engines are highly efficient, and quiet.
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PostSubject: Re: Galway Luas (Gluas) highlighted in Green Party Plan   Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:26 pm

soubresauts wrote:
Any overwhelming reason why it has to be electric?
Are there any or many diesel rail systems in the cities of the world do you know? Electric would be cleaner, quieter and possibly more sustainable. Wouldn't electric be cheaper in the long run as the price of diesel is steadily rising although you get a lot more bang for your gallon on a train I imagine. Do you know the mileage out of a diesel tram?
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PostSubject: Re: Galway Luas (Gluas) highlighted in Green Party Plan   Wed Jun 04, 2008 5:49 pm

Auditor #9 wrote:
Are there any or many diesel rail systems in the cities of the world do you know?
I don't know of any diesel trams as such, though there are probably a few systems out there. Here we come to the definition of "light rail"...

I admit that the diesel systems I'm thinking of -- which I have observed closely -- are not, strictly speaking, light rail. They're mainline rail. But they go into cities and towns (if not streets). They can be found in many parts of Germany, and probably all over continental Europe. In recent years the Germans developed various new diesel train services, often using disused railway lines, which needed very little adjustment. Low development costs, low running costs, and low maintenance costs. Contrast them with something like the Luas....

The trains are just big carriages, with the diesel engine not noticeable -- it's under the floor. With modern technology, the engines are quiet and very efficient. The trains are very spacious and you can walk on with your bike, except during morning and evening rush-hours. At busy times they hook two or three together to carry hundreds of people. It's all appropriate technology.

Typically, the trains run every 30 minutes. So everybody knows when it's coming. The trains are not particularly fast, but that's a good thing. Their acceleration is not much worse than modern light-rail trams. With adaptation, I think they would not be inappropriate even on city streets. They're not noisy or polluting.

The sooner Irish public transport authorities break away from the urge to try to go faster and the efforts to make the public think everything is faster (Luas, Dart, rapid-this, quick-that, speed-the-other, city-swift, etc., etc.), the better for everybody. Ivan Illich's "Energy & Equity" should be compulsory reading for all of them.

The Gluas planners talk about low-floor trams but the platforms still have to be raised above street level. With the diesel trams I envisage, the platforms would have to be higher still, because of the engine under the floor, but it's not a huge drawback.

With those German lines, there's very little to go wrong, so you have a very reliable service that people soon get to like very much. The lines usually link a lot of outlying villages and out in the country a single track railway (often an old goods train line) is quite practical: everyone knows exactly when the trains are coming and you only need a couple of double-track crossing-points, with negligible delay...

Services like that complement the main rail network and can share the same rail lines if appropriate. And the development costs are much less than for Luas-type systems.

My idea is that you could have in Galway a high-quality, efficient urban-suburban railway system for a low price compared to the Luas.

Quote :
Electric would be cleaner, quieter and possibly more sustainable.
Emissions from modern diesel engines would be insignificant in a windy, spread-out city like Galway. Similarly, engine noise would not be an issue. Sustainable? I don't see much threat to supplies of diesel for public transport. The cars will come off the road sooner. Anyway, people will be happy to do without a car when they have a reliable rail service.
The main reasons for electrification are: acceleration on short legs, tunnels, and pollution. There won't be tunnels in Galway, and modern diesels solve the other problems.

Quote :
Wouldn't electric be cheaper in the long run as the price of diesel is steadily rising although you get a lot more bang for your gallon on a train I imagine. Do you know the mileage out of a diesel tram?
I don't have figures, but the mileage would certainly be very good. Electric will only become cheaper when we have a lot of wind and wave generators up and running.

Anyway, I think the bottom line is that Gluas would be too expensive.
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PostSubject: Re: Galway Luas (Gluas) highlighted in Green Party Plan   Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:26 pm

This seems like a great idea. Public transport for Galway which will reduce car dependence and provide plenty of builders with employment.

All I hope is that they won't call the new system Gluas. Luas is the Irish for speed, Gluas means nothing and is lazy marketingology. They should call it something else as Gaeilge which actually means something.
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PostSubject: Re: Galway Luas (Gluas) highlighted in Green Party Plan   Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:03 am

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:
All I hope is that they won't call the new system Gluas. Luas is the Irish for speed, Gluas means nothing and is lazy marketingology. They should call it something else as Gaeilge which actually means something.
Ear ear (almost). The Rebels would beat them if their system gets called the Cork Area Rapid Transit though.

soubresauts wrote:
Anyway, I think the bottom line is that Gluas would be too expensive.

The news paper below is saying that the cost would be €200 million or
€9 million per kilometer (mama mia) which is less than one third of the
cost in Dublin (€31 million per kilometer pale
). That's electric but you are saying diesel might be cheaper to
install in the first place, so I wonder if a couple million short of a
couple a hundred million would be a good deal for Galway? With park
and ride they might get a steady income and the whole atmosphere might
be a pleasant enough change to draw tourists back. There are other
benefits too more than likely - life and health spin offs.

Could they stick in diesel at the start with a view to leaving the
infrastructure available in case they wanted to electrify it later?

Quote :

Plans for the construction of a light rail transport system for
Galway which could be constructed within three years at a fraction of
the cost Dublin’s Luas are set to be launched in the city early next
month.

A team of UK-based experts, hired by the voluntary GLUAS (light rail
for Galway) campaign, have come up with detailed plans for a €200
million electric train service which would feature two lines, 50 stops,
and 19 trams over a 21km network across the city.

The consultants believe that the Galway trams could be built at a
cost of €9 million per kilometre, less than a third of the €31million
per km it has cost to put the Luas in place in the capital. They
estimate they would only have to dig down eight inches, rather than the
six feet required for Luas, to put tracks in place on the streets of
the city.

On Monday week, June 9, the GLUAS campaign will launch a website
which will feature plans for a network featuring two lines, one linking
the Cappagh Road with Merlin Park and the other between Bushypark and
the Tuam Road, which, they claim, could be put in place within a matter
of three years.

The plan envisages the construction of Park and Ride facilities at
stations on the outskirts of the city and is seen as
.........................
http://www.galwaynews.ie/3887-21km-light-rail-network-proposed
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PostSubject: Re: Galway Luas (Gluas) highlighted in Green Party Plan   Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:11 am

jasis, if it'd held on to the house down there it would have been worth a fortune after the thing is built.
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PostSubject: Re: Galway Luas (Gluas) highlighted in Green Party Plan   Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:09 pm

How come they get lines that intersect and we don't? *grumble, grumble*
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PostSubject: Re: Galway Luas (Gluas) highlighted in Green Party Plan   Thu Jun 05, 2008 4:05 pm

There seems to be a lot of wasted track there, missing populated areas etc.

Also why is the busiest track, city center to knocknacarragh, down for future build.

But then I don't know Galway well so I'm probably talking rubbish.

Anyway, this (Blue lines) is the way I'd build it. cyclops

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PostSubject: Re: Galway Luas (Gluas) highlighted in Green Party Plan   Thu Jun 05, 2008 4:52 pm

Somebody on Politics.ie pointed me to this website.

It's a pretty good example of what can be done: diesel engine with "hybrid" electric motor, no overhead wires, relatively light, so no huge earthworks needed. Much cheaper than Luas...

That website offers various ideas for different scales of public transport projects.
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PostSubject: Re: Galway Luas (Gluas) highlighted in Green Party Plan   Thu Jun 05, 2008 5:58 pm

soubresauts wrote:
Somebody on Politics.ie pointed me to this website.

It's a pretty good example of what can be done: diesel engine with "hybrid" electric motor, no overhead wires, relatively light, so no huge earthworks needed. Much cheaper than Luas...

That website offers various ideas for different scales of public transport projects.
Did you see the cost estimates for that!? Imagine the irish government building something that cheap and efficient...
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PostSubject: Re: Galway Luas (Gluas) highlighted in Green Party Plan   Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:53 pm

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:



It'd probably be more difficult that way. Procuring sites would be one difficulty. Some places along that blue route mightn't be suitable, even if they were CPOed.
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PostSubject: Re: Galway Luas (Gluas) highlighted in Green Party Plan   Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:57 pm

Yeah. It was based on the assumption that anything in the way was OK for knocking !

Is that Green Line for bringing the FF crowd out to the Galway Races ?

Oh..I remember now...
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PostSubject: Re: Galway Luas (Gluas) highlighted in Green Party Plan   Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:04 pm

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:
Yeah. It was based on the assumption that anything in the way was OK for knocking !

If only we could sometimes. That's really the Simcity School of Urban Planning, really.

Quote :
Is that Green Line for bringing the FF crowd out to the Galway Races ?

Oh..I remember now...

Oh, they say they've folded up the tent, but I'll let you in on a secret: the tent will be re-located to the middle of Galway Bay. Our biggest property developers are actually amphibians.
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PostSubject: Re: Galway Luas (Gluas) highlighted in Green Party Plan   Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:22 pm

soubresauts wrote:
Somebody on Politics.ie pointed me to this website.

It's a pretty good example of what can be done: diesel engine with "hybrid" electric motor, no overhead wires, relatively light, so no huge earthworks needed. Much cheaper than Luas...

That website offers various ideas for different scales of public transport projects.

Quote :
The Kalamata ULR system will comprise a 5km route of conventional metre-gauge tramway track, a depot, 23 stops and eight hybrid diesel electric trams, each with 45-passenger capacity. It is expected that with the associated civil works, to be carried out by a local contractor, the total project cost will amount to around EUR 8 million (£5 million). This represents only 10% of the cost of building a conventional light rail system.
Remember that 1km in Galway would cost €9m ... someone has to tell them. This system has no overhead wires and aren't there electric trams that don't need wires anyway? Why such a massive difference in the price and cost? €200 million as opposed to €40 million (the entire system = 21lms: €8 million for 5kms - €9 million for 1km ... go figure)

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