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 The PDs - A Post Mortem

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PostSubject: Re: The PDs - A Post Mortem   Sun Sep 21, 2008 1:07 am

Pax wrote:
Of course that's not to say they are the only party pushing and promoting such neoliberal policies, but they were the most transparent exponents of them and had every support within the mainstream media.

I was of the opinion that the PDs were universally loathed by the media with a couple of notable exceptions like Smyth and Collins.

I will agree our policies were not popular. The party was never popular but what appears to have made us even more unpopular, if at all possable, is the fact that we somehow managed with very limited resources to implement or influence the direction of succesive governments.
Labour could easily do what the PDs have done. The Greens are currently doing it.
Fine Gael have indirectly done it by their members voting PD time and again just to see some of their policies implemented. That has of coursed now stopped.
I take my hat off to Mr Kenny. It was his party and maybe his insistance that the PDs be destroyed and they have succeeded admirably. credit where it due, they have maintained a concerted attack on the PD position especially Harney for at least 2-3 years.

As a PD member, I personally place the reason for the demise at the door of Fine Gael. It was either us or them and they won.
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PostSubject: Re: The PDs - A Post Mortem   Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:09 am

Slim Buddha wrote:
cookiemonster wrote:
cactus flower wrote:


From my standpoint Johnny I shouldn't be saying this, but it is an excellent idea for a party at that stage. I still think you are/were in the wrong party. Way too nice to be a PD Very Happy

You've said this kind of thing before and appear to have an odd idea as to what a PD or indeed anybody who isn't a leftie is like.

I understand cactus' view on this, CM. With all due respect to Johnny, who seems a decent bloke, I heartily detest the former leader of his party and current occupant of the Ministerial office in Hawkins House. In my opinion, she represents the very worst aspects of Irish politics and was one of the leading factors in my decision to leave the country. If she is, as some people claim, one of our best politicians, then there really is no hope of any kind of improvement in Irish politics in my lifetime. And life is too short to have to tolerate that sort of crass horseshit. (If I ever meet her, I must thank her).

I have to disagree. Mary Harney is the sort of iconoclastic politician of which Ireland is in very short supply. As Minister for State at Environment, she got smoky coal banned against strong opposition. As Minister for Enterprise Trade and Employment she oversaw the creation of hundreds of thousands of jobs, of which many came from work done by FÁS, IDA, EI and so on under her aegis. She helped relieve the substantial burden of taxation on Irish workers and enterprises through her party's firm commitment to low wealth-creating taxes. She also broke the mould of Irish politics in becoming the first female leader of a political party and our first female Tánaiste. She was a key element of the revival of women in politics which began with Mary Robinson's election as President in 1990.

Whatever you may say about her time in Health, at least she has a vision, an idea and a commitment to see policies through. If you compare her time their to the Minister of Reports Micheál Martin and Minister Brian "Angola" Cowen, you will see that she has been a far more active, dynamic and altogether focused Minister for Health than any other in the present government and a damn sight better than the various Opposition spokespeople who have failed to make much of an impact on the national bodypolitic. I cannot think of the last time Dr O'Reilly of Fine Gael set the terms of a health debate much less won it. Furthermore, if you actually examine the last General Election in detail, you will see that it was a public endorsement of her policies in health. This is because while Dr Jerry Cowley and many of the other Health Independent TDs lost their seats across the country, Harney actually retained her seat and this was against a determined national campaign focused on my constituency to unseat her.

In her time at Health, cleanliness audits have become established, the budget has been vastly increased, death rates have maintained their downward progression, life expectancy has increased at a rate which compares well with our EU counterparts, the health service has improved according to the European Consumer Health Survey. She stands as one of the key Ministers for Health in this country and she's someone for whom I have a lot of time.
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PostSubject: Re: The PDs - A Post Mortem   Sat Nov 08, 2008 11:11 pm

'Tis official. The party's over. They'll take a few months to wind down the party, but it's done and finally dusted.

Economic policy will now be laid bare for the electorate and put squarely on FF's doorstep. Although some claimed it was the PD tail that wagged the FF dog, I never bought the story.

When they first popped up on the scene I was quite keen on their overall policy objectives. However, time and experience has tempered any enthusiasm I had for them during their heady start-up days. Reality is harsh on idealism. Their economic policies, which became nothing more than a rehash of free-market Austrian economic theory, have come home to roost with a vengence. Unfortunately, Ireland has only experienced the first phase of trickle-down economics. We have more fuel in the tank for another self induced credit lead bubble. The PDs may be gone but their legacy still has some way to run.
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PostSubject: Re: The PDs - A Post Mortem   Sat Nov 08, 2008 11:28 pm

rockyracoon wrote:
'Tis official. The party's over. They'll take a few months to wind down the party, but it's done and finally dusted.

Economic policy will now be laid bare for the electorate and put squarely on FF's doorstep. Although some claimed it was the PD tail that wagged the FF dog, I never bought the story.

When they first popped up on the scene I was quite keen on their overall policy objectives. However, time and experience has tempered any enthusiasm I had for them during their heady start-up days. Reality is harsh on idealism. Their economic policies, which became nothing more than a rehash of free-market Austrian economic theory, have come home to roost with a vengence. Unfortunately, Ireland has only experienced the first phase of trickle-down economics. We have more fuel in the tank for another self induced credit lead bubble. The PDs may be gone but their legacy still has some way to run.


This party was running on empty for years. That they have finally gone is a relief. Harney should be removed from Health and the government now as there is no point in keeping her there. She has, in this post, as in Trade, Enterprise and Employment, done more harm than good. Like her party, she is long past her political sell-by date. Let us hope that we don't see any other bunch of con-artists replacing them. We have enough as it is.
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PostSubject: Re: The PDs - A Post Mortem   Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:40 am

Thanks Rocky for searching for this thread rather than starting a new one.

Re the party, there is still clearly a large grouping who don't want to see the party dissolved and it will be interesting to see what decisions they make in that regard. PDs Lite? Or PDs Extra Strong? Or PDs in great new flavours.

What will be most interesting though, is to see where the councillors go -what the distribution throughout other parties will be and how many will remain independent. In other words, how many have a PD philosophy they want to stick with and how many will jump aboard whatever ship seems politically expedient ahead of the elections.
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PostSubject: Re: The PDs - A Post Mortem   Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:46 am

Quote :
What will be most interesting though, is to see where the councillors go -what the distribution throughout other parties will be and how many will remain independent.
Any insights from yourselves ?

Fiona O'Malley for the Greens !
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PostSubject: Re: The PDs - A Post Mortem   Sun Nov 09, 2008 3:40 am

Whatever base is left should form a real free market capitalist party. Talk of free makets failing is bunk because there hasn't been a free market for a 100 years. We are now seeing the end of fiat money central bank systems and the long predicted misery that they always bring is coming home to roost. It will be made worse now with more bailouts.
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PostSubject: Re: The PDs - A Post Mortem   Sun Nov 09, 2008 3:49 am

Auditor #9 wrote:
Quote :
What will be most interesting though, is to see where the councillors go -what the distribution throughout other parties will be and how many will remain independent.
Any insights from yourselves ?

Fiona O'Malley for the Greens !

Fiona O'Malley is joining the Green Party? I thought she would join Fianna Fáil. It'll be interesting to see her name on a Green Party poster at the next election. This should change the dynamic within the Green Party.
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PostSubject: Re: The PDs - A Post Mortem   Sun Nov 09, 2008 4:00 am

youngdan wrote:
Whatever base is left should form a real free market capitalist party. Talk of free makets failing is bunk because there hasn't been a free market for a 100 years. We are now seeing the end of fiat money central bank systems and the long predicted misery that they always bring is coming home to roost. It will be made worse now with more bailouts.
Your alternative to saving the banking system?
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PostSubject: Re: The PDs - A Post Mortem   Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:28 am

It can't be saved Tonys.
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PostSubject: Re: The PDs - A Post Mortem   Sun Nov 09, 2008 3:39 pm

And given that many are now rewarding themselves by allocating part of the bailout as bonuses (bonus for what exactly, 10% of a con job?) they shouldn''t be saved. There are better ways to waste money.
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PostSubject: Re: The PDs - A Post Mortem   Sun Nov 09, 2008 5:16 pm

Squire wrote:
And given that many are now rewarding themselves by allocating part of the bailout as bonuses (bonus for what exactly, 10% of a con job?) they shouldn''t be saved. There are better ways to waste money.
What is the alternative and what is the effect on economic activity of that alternative.
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PostSubject: Re: The PDs - A Post Mortem   Sun Nov 09, 2008 7:38 pm

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:
Auditor #9 wrote:
Quote :
What will be most interesting though, is to see where the councillors go -what the distribution throughout other parties will be and how many will remain independent.
Any insights from yourselves ?

Fiona O'Malley for the Greens !

Fiona O'Malley is joining the Green Party? I thought she would join Fianna Fáil. It'll be interesting to see her name on a Green Party poster at the next election. This should change the dynamic within the Green Party.

It would, but I think she had previously indicated she was jumping elsewhere.

I'm not sure if the above is wishful thinking or deathwish thinking on Audi's part.
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PostSubject: Re: The PDs - A Post Mortem   Sun Nov 09, 2008 8:08 pm

Slim Buddha wrote:



Harney should be removed from Health and the government now as there is no point in keeping her there.

There is a point in keeping her. It stops FF from taking the flak regarding health. She is keeping some sap of a FFer from destroying his political career there.
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PostSubject: Re: The PDs - A Post Mortem   Sun Nov 09, 2008 8:14 pm

Precisely right regarding her position in Health, anmajornathainig. In your analysis, not the morality of her position that is.

I don't think Fiona O'Malley has much of a political future whatever her party. If she remains in a Dublin constituency anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: The PDs - A Post Mortem   Sun Nov 09, 2008 8:18 pm

johnfás wrote:
Precisely right regarding her position in Health, anmajornathainig. In your analysis, not the morality of her position that is.

I don't think Fiona O'Malley has much of a political future whatever her party. If she remains in a Dublin constituency anyway.

I`d agree with that as well. i`d say it`s time for Fiona to call it quits.
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PostSubject: Re: The PDs - A Post Mortem   Sun Nov 09, 2008 8:43 pm

anmajornarthainig wrote:
Slim Buddha wrote:



Harney should be removed from Health and the government now as there is no point in keeping her there.

There is a point in keeping her. It stops FF from taking the flak regarding health. She is keeping some sap of a FFer from destroying his political career there.


I should have phrased it "there is no point in keeping here there that would in any way be of benefit to the people who are dependent on a functioning health service" Apologies.
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PostSubject: Re: The PDs - A Post Mortem   Sun Nov 09, 2008 10:29 pm

anmajornarthainig wrote:
Slim Buddha wrote:



Harney should be removed from Health and the government now as there is no point in keeping her there.

There is a point in keeping her. It stops FF from taking the flak regarding health. She is keeping some sap of a FFer from destroying his political career there.
And as that would be their chief concern + they’re all saps anyway, you’re probably right on the money.
Why can’t everybody see that?
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PostSubject: Re: The PDs - A Post Mortem   Sun Nov 09, 2008 10:40 pm

tonys wrote:

Why can’t everybody see that?

They can but half them are too worried about their jobs to give it much thought and the other half are Fianna Fáilers who think that it is politically savvy, which it is of course.
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PostSubject: Re: The PDs - A Post Mortem   Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:14 pm

tonys wrote:
, you’re probably right on the money.

Thanks. Wink

I`m surpised you regard Fianna Fáil as saps. You`ve undergone a Pauline conversion since coming over to Machine Nation. I`ve never ever considered Fianna Fáil saps but seeing as you likely know more about the workings of the party than I would I`ll bow to your superior knowledge.

are we finished with the sarcasm now?

There are only three reasons why you would take the job in Health and to be honest if you think that you can do a good job as a Minister for Health you`re not smart enough to be Minister for Health. There are three reasons why you would actively look for the job.

1. You`re politically suicidal.

2. You`re close to retirement and aren`t worried about re-election.

3. You`re close to retirement, hate your child and want to ensure that he/ she will never be elected.

I`d sympathise with anybody in charge of the ministry of Health, because it`s a job where it is impossible to do a good job. The longer people live the more healthcare they need. It`s unsolvable. I wouldn`t blame anyone for refusing that particular poison chalice, regardless of what party they`re from. The only solution I can think off would be to divide the department and give it two ministeries at the cabinet table, whichever way it could be broken up.
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PostSubject: Re: The PDs - A Post Mortem   Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:30 pm

I couldn't agree with you more anmajornarthainig about Health being the Mudguard Ministry but on the other hand don't the people love a hero and one way to get a geansai-load of votes would be to turn the Health system inside out. I think Harney wanted to bypass the big elephants on the road by initiating the building of private hospitals i.e. through competition. The Blackrock one made a bucketload of profit I saw the other day in the paper - is it the only one ? I'm sure the Bons Secours make a good few bob too.

Breaking the whole thing into two - wouldn't that be doubling the monster although if it was a Munster+Connaught v. Leinster+Ulster split then maybe we'd see some real competition... Not sure about that though now that I think about it. What would you have in mind for splitting it into two ? Has Harney come up with that one before?
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PostSubject: Re: The PDs - A Post Mortem   Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:36 pm

I would presume splitting in two would not be regional in nature but in terms of service. That is, you could have hospitals under one ministry and everything else the department does under another. That is not how I would suggest that it be done, just an off the top of my head example.
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PostSubject: Re: The PDs - A Post Mortem   Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:38 pm

I just don`t know, but I wouldn`t do it geographically. i do it by category of illness, or age or administration V disease.

I don`t think Irish people want heroes by the way. In my opinion they want fixers and consensus builders. Political Heroes are divisive and or challenging. We`ve not elected many of them in the past generations. Cowen actually has the potential to be one but he has to show people that he`s not afraid to take on the really powerful, and not just what`s lazily called the vested interests, in order to show his credentials.
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PostSubject: Re: The PDs - A Post Mortem   Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:44 pm

Splitting Health by illness or age would be like splitting the spoils between the VHI and Bupa - someone would suffer the thick end of the risk equalisation wedge. No doubt you'd have people shrieking on ClareFM of a rainy morning that the Minister for Old People's Health was a Raven bringing nothing but Death and that nobody died when there were regional health boards or even the HSE.

You'd get a better spread if you split it regionally and then people could compare like with like - Munster v. Dublin for example. Maybe an Opposition politician should be in charge of one of them Twisted Evil

(this is not part of my regional anarchism plan..)
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PostSubject: Re: The PDs - A Post Mortem   Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:49 pm

I don't think you could split it regionally at a Ministerial level. You could split the HSE again into regions. I think I once heard that the HSE is the largest health authority in the whole of the EU - most countries have regional bodies none of which are as large as the HSE.
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