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 Yanks and Guns

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PostSubject: Yanks and Guns   Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:20 pm

I split this thread off from the EU Charter one.
These Free State Project people are holed up in New Hampshire, 8500 of them, screaming the Second Amendment from the rooftops.


ibis wrote:
Auditor #9 wrote:
To hold all the little pieces together from the top do you mean, ibis? Are there any instances of it in existence that you know? - Libertarian communities (sounds religious)

In the US, surprisingly...recent, though. Indeed, still being created.

Gun obsessed lunatics


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PostSubject: Re: Yanks and Guns   Fri Apr 18, 2008 9:14 pm

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:
ibis wrote:
Auditor #9 wrote:
To hold all the little pieces together from the top do you mean, ibis? Are there any instances of it in existence that you know? - Libertarian communities (sounds religious)

In the US, surprisingly...recent, though. Indeed, still being created.

Gun obsessed lunatics

You are the voice of reason. Neutral
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PostSubject: Re: Yanks and Guns   Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:20 pm

Two posters who have a fear of guns so hopefully they are never looking at one from the wrong direction. If you lived 2 hundred years would you be talking about sword nuts or 2 thousand years ago club nuts. Guns are for killing so you had better have one when some savage comes to kill you. Otherwise it is as the song goes it's Tut Tut Tutsi Good Bye.
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PostSubject: Re: Yanks and Guns   Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:32 am

They don't need all those guns in Canada Youngdan.
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PostSubject: Re: Yanks and Guns   Sat Apr 19, 2008 3:21 am

And Shame on Charton Heston, for condoning this barbaric idiocy.
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PostSubject: Re: Yanks and Guns   Sat Apr 19, 2008 3:23 am

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:
And Shame on Charton Heston, for condoning this barbaric idiocy.
Have you seen Bowling for Columbine?
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PostSubject: Re: Yanks and Guns   Sat Apr 19, 2008 3:30 am

youngdan wrote:
Two posters who have a fear of guns so hopefully they are never looking at one from the wrong direction. If you lived 2 hundred years would you be talking about sword nuts or 2 thousand years ago club nuts. Guns are for killing so you had better have one when some savage comes to kill you. Otherwise it is as the song goes it's Tut Tut Tutsi Good Bye.

Someone is selling you a tin pup, youngdan - how much does the handgun industry make in a year in the US?
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PostSubject: Re: Yanks and Guns   Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:47 am

I have not seen bowling for Columbine but do you realise that the shooters were on the loose for hours with the cops outside hiding behind trees. The shooters killed themselves around noon but a guy died from blood loss at 3pm while the cops were still behind the trees. Does anybody think there was a shortage of locals not to mention parents ready to go in. The cops wouldn't let them. Why are there so many school shooting. It is because the killers know they are safe because school grounds have been declared gun free zones. They know that they will not encounter a citizen firing back. Here is an excellent article that is articulated better than I could hope to do www.newswithviews.com/Johnston/patrick4.htm - 16k The churchs are other gunfree zones but this woman disobeyrd the rules and look what happened. She prevented a slaughter www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1937485/posts - 48k Nobody want to talk about the fact that these killers are always on powerfull prescription drugs. A certain percentage of people are criminals and to do an ostrich act on this fact is fatal.
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PostSubject: Re: Yanks and Guns   Sat Apr 19, 2008 9:20 am

This is a clip of me relaxing this afternoon. YD relaxing
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PostSubject: Re: Yanks and Guns   Sat Apr 19, 2008 9:58 am

Aw dan you have to see that film - I'm not plugging Moore in particular rather the medium of delivering this info (or 'disinfo') but Moore widens the discussion about the Columbine massacre out to include the gun-culture in general, hence reference to Heston and he goes further and suggests it's not guns but Americans who are to blame. He cites Canadian statistics again around gun-crime and possession of guns and it seems they have as many guns as you do (though I think it's easier to buy guns in the States is it do you know?)

What makes Americans use their guns more on each other is the culture of fear he believes exists in America and which is fostered by the Administration is order to keep you ... on your toes for fear of an invasion like in the documentary Red Dawn or is it to keep you buying guns or worse - to bolster the international war economy like in the film The Lord of War with Nicholas Cage by supporting the need and justify the use of guns?

How easy is it for you to get one of these?



Submachine Gun


"Ingram" MAC - 10/11


http://www.enemyforces.com/firearms/ingram.htm
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PostSubject: Re: Yanks and Guns   Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:05 am

Just reach under my pillow
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PostSubject: Re: Yanks and Guns   Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:19 am

In seriousness that weapon is available to the gangs in Boston. It is not the type of weapon the people who the other posters call gun nuts would have much interest in. They would be talking handguns for protection and rifles for hunting. I might pick up that documentary but Moore has a low level of credibility here. It is unfair to compare Canada to here for many reasons. You have big city poverty and many states are poor as well. Also about 30% or something like that of everyone here is on antidepressants or some other drug. Then you have then video games and tv shows. As soon as things get bad here you will see stuff that will be horrific
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PostSubject: Re: Yanks and Guns   Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:29 am

It would be interesting to hear how moore is generally thought of there actually. I think he gets a lot of respect here but opinion on these things can be fickle too. To give him his due he tries to look at things in a critical way, though whether he has an agenda or not is another thing. If he has an agenda then it's been done before and roll on the next guy (he might however have bits of others agendas which would complicate things..) but then again he might have no agenda bar faith in humanistic principles and the desire to look under the nation's bonnet for the machinations which lead to the bad stuff we overtly have in society and complain about.

Having no agenda yet making the information digestible and informative is a new art and did it begin with gonzo journalism? Something we should promote here Very Happy (if anyone wants to talk specifically about gonzo journalism then we'll break off a thread)

I wonder is Moore looked at by many Americans as a pure traitor?
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PostSubject: Re: Yanks and Guns   Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:39 pm

youngdan wrote:
This is a clip of me relaxing this afternoon.
YD relaxing

US attitudes to guns are so different from here that I don't think I could say much about them of any value.

I once spent an enjoyable afternoon in a Las Vegas shooting range run by an ex cop, having with a go with a few of the larger items on offer. I have quite a steady hand and eye and enjoy any target related sports, like clay-pigeon shooting, darts and archery.

It seems to be very easy for people to get guns for committing crime in Ireland and it only takes a 2" stab wound to kill someone. What we don't have here is petty criminals and addicts with guns, to any degree. And we don't have children accidentally shooting each other with the gun from the parents bedside cupboard.

American gun culture

I'm finding it hard to find up to date figures on gun sales and profits in the US, but this is interesting

Fewer gun dealers in US

I read that use of bows has increased in America - gun use has dropped, but there are 3.2 million people hunting with bows.

Bowhunting
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PostSubject: Re: Yanks and Guns   Sat Apr 19, 2008 1:07 pm

youngdan wrote:
This is a clip of me relaxing this afternoon.
YD relaxing

Nice shooting Dan! Cool
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PostSubject: Re: Yanks and Guns   Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:19 pm

Mark Steyn - God and Guns, Hell Yes!
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PostSubject: Re: Yanks and Guns   Sat Apr 19, 2008 7:56 pm

ibis wrote:
Mark Steyn - God and Guns, Hell Yes!

Thats scary.
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PostSubject: Re: Yanks and Guns   Sat Apr 19, 2008 8:48 pm

This is what I find scary http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdYFhrnblKY and also

Second Video

This 2nd video is not for persons with a delicate disposition
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PostSubject: deleted   Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:00 am

deleted miss-post


Last edited by cactus flower on Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Yanks and Guns   Sun Apr 20, 2008 4:40 am

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4803003242921117757&q=bowling+for+columbine&ei=lJgKSK2MD4uYrALjot2yBA&hl=en This is the entire movie Bowling for Columbine. At great cost to my sanity I watched the whole thing. One reason the Moore would be thought a joke here is the segment about the 6 year old girl who was shot by her classmate. So who is to blame. According to Moore it is Charlton Heston who he accosts. The other culpret is even more bizarre. He blames Dick Clark who owns the restaurant where the mother works and he accosts him as well. Needless to say there is no mention of the uncle who left the loaded pistol unsecured where the kid could get it. Nobody was rude enough to ask whether this upright citizen had a permit for the pistol. Of course he was also polite enough not to mention the prescription drugs the shooters were on. He failed to mention that there are about 320 million people here so if the murder rate of 11000 odd was proportioned to Ireland it would be about 135. The figure for Ireland is 78 from last year I believe so it is 45% higher about. Moore gets paid big bucks for this bullshyte because all government strive to disarm the people.
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PostSubject: Re: Yanks and Guns   Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:36 am

I went out with an American soldier called D****. (I cannot post his name because it could get him in trouble under the strange rules in the US army about gays in the army). He comes from Orange county, California. We went out one night to Bowling for Columbine. He couldn't understand why Irish people were laughing at America's obsession with guns. He had always presumed that America's gun laws were normal worldwide, not that they were regarded as crazy.

He had received his first gun from his father at the age of 9. He has a collection of 12 pistols (at least he had then) and a host of other guns. HE goes nowhere without a gun when home. Everyone around him has guns. They have to bodycheck every kid going to school for firearms. He witnessed his first killing - a drive by - aged 14. By the time he left school one-fifth of his class had either been shot, shot at, or shot dead.

Re your statistics BTW YD, they are completely wrong. In his local town alone (population 5000) the murder rate was higher than in all of Ireland.

He couldn't get over the fact that he was in a cinema watching a film about guns in the US and no-one in the cinema had a gun with them (or indeed that no-one other than me had ever seen a gun. I did because I grew up on a farm with shotguns, etc which were used to kill crows). It freaked the guy out when I said that the police were unarmed. He made a beeline for the first guard he saw when we left the Screen on College Street to ask him was it true that police in Ireland were unarmed. He was also struck by the fact that he saw women walking alone up Church Street. Where he was from no woman would walk anywhere alone, without some male friend 'packing'. He was particularly amazed at the low murder rate in Ireland. Some blocks in downtown Dallas have higher murder rates than all of Ireland. And Limerick, which is in the middle of a gang war, has one of the highest murder rates in Ireland yet has a murder rate most US towns would dream of. It finally dawned on him what non-Americans (YD excepted) have realised for years: gun availability does not cut crime, it increases it.

The guy is now in Iraq, where he jokes that the number of guns available makes him feel right at home!

In one tragic twist, for the last three years he has been dating a Californian man who has three children by his ex-wife. The oldest son, Aaron, was gunned down and killed while playing basketball. A man with a legal gun had got annoyed that someone in the basketball team had parked in front of his house, so he went into the house, got the gun, and open fire on the team, killing three players, including Aaron. Aaron was just gone 17.
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PostSubject: Re: Yanks and Guns   Sun Apr 20, 2008 3:43 pm

NDS,

the pity of the whole thing is that the countries that want to restrict gun ownership will eventually lose. Too many guns are imported too easily from the lax licence countries such as in Eastern Europe and Russia, and also in the US. There has been a couple of cases recently of guns being intercepted by customs where people have bought from the US over the Internet and the supplier has just mailed them. Even now, particularly in the UK, more and more police are being armed.

YD,

whilst taking the risk of being called a pedant, could I point out (again) that 135 is not 45% higher then 78, its about 74% higher. 78 is 55% of 135 which is an entirely different thing.

This is of course ignoring that the population of the US is 303M not 320M, and the murder rate is 17,000 not 11,000 and that this would give a proportional murder rate of 230 which would be just shy of 300% of the the current rate.....
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PostSubject: Re: Yanks and Guns   Sun Apr 20, 2008 3:56 pm

I don't know if you can see this but ths is the set of figures behind the 17,000 in MikeWs link above and they are shocking for murder and other crimes. It doesn't explicitly state gun crimes though but I must be missing it... it's up to 1999 because I couldn't fit it all on the screen with one screenshot but the figures are there readily in the link
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PostSubject: Re: Yanks and Guns   Sun Apr 20, 2008 4:01 pm

No, these are general figures, not gun specific ones. However table 1 on the attached has some interesting figures though it is from a partisan site, so I can't necessarily stand over them.

Intentional deaths by guns
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PostSubject: Re: Yanks and Guns   Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:26 pm

MikeW wrote:
No, these are general figures, not gun specific ones.
However table 1 on the attached has some interesting figures though it
is from a partisan site, so I can't necessarily stand over them.

Intentional deaths by guns

Table 1 - International Firearms Regulation, Access and Death
CountryLicensing of gun
owners?
Registration of
firearms?
OtherHouseholds with
firearms (%)
Gun
Homicide (per 100,000)
Gun Suicide (per
100,000)
Total Intentional
Gun Death Rate per 100,000
Japan
Yes

Yes

Prohibits handguns with few exceptions

0.6

0.03

0.04
0.07
SingaporeYesYesMost
handguns and rifles prohibited
0.01
(795 in the country)
0.070.170.24
TaiwanN/AN/AN/A0.150.120.27
KuwaitN/AN/AN/A0.340.030.37
England/
Wales

Yes

Yes

Prohibits handguns

4.0
0.070.330.4
ScotlandYesYesSame
as England and Wales
4.00.190.300.49

Netherlands

Yes

Yes

1.9
0.27
0.28
0.55

Spain

Yes

Yes
Some handguns and rifles are prohibited
13.1
0.190.550.74
IrelandYesYesN/A0.300.941.24

Germany

Yes

Yes

8.9
0.21
1.23
1.44
ItalyYesYesN/A1.161.112.27
SwedenYesYesRestrictions
in some regions
200.182.092.27
DenmarkYesLong
guns only
80.232.252.48
IsraelYesYesN/A0.721.842.56

New Zealand

Yes

Handguns. Proposed for long guns

20
0.22
2.45
2.67

Australia

Yes

Yes

Banned semiautomatics unless good reason

16.0
0.56
2.38
2.94

Belgium

Some

Yes

Some rifles are prohibited

16.6

0.87

2.45
3.32

Canada
by
2001
All
guns by 2003
Assault
weapons and some handguns

26

0.60

3.35
3.95
NorwayYesUnknown320.363.874.23
AustriaYesYesSome
handguns and rifles are prohibited
16-18%0.424.064.48

Northern
Ireland

Yes

Yes
UK
legislation applies

8.4

3.55

1.18
4.72

France

Yes

Yes, except sporting rifles

22.6

0.55

4.93

5.48

Switzerland
YesYes
27.2

0.46

5.74

6.2

Finland

Yes

Yes

No prohibitions

50

0.87

5.78
6.65

USA

in some states

Handguns in some states

Some weapons in some states

41

6.24

7.23
13.47
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