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 Towards a Charter and a Moderation Process

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PostSubject: Re: Towards a Charter and a Moderation Process   Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:17 am

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:
johnfás wrote:
Ard-Taoiseach wrote:
Auditor #9 wrote:
Stone someone in public at rush hour is what he means.

Something like that. I have a zero tolerance policy towards trolls. They should be vanquished every time they appear.

One man's troll is another man's...... bom

Yeah, well one man has powers to lock, move, merge, split and re-name threads. The other doesn't!

Power makes its heady rush to A-T's brain...
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PostSubject: Re: Towards a Charter and a Moderation Process   Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:51 am

Just dropping this in from lostexpection on another thread - it is a different kind of look at how sites can and should develop.
We could get too caught up in rules if we don't see them in the wider context of what we are here for and how the site can get better.

lostexpection said -

don't know what the new kewl politics site is, I didn't notice or use politics.ie at the start so im not sure how it gained traction other then it simply owning the name politics.ie, which is the overwhelming reason it has succeeded.
you can't understate estimate the power of the right url see boards.ie

*cough*

i said before we can't underestimate the importance of what dave does with p.ie

well dave needs to accept help from others, he has to give up some control if wants to keep going/expand and keep up with his own work and projects, whats the media project he asked people to beta ? he needs to complete and add new features or allow others to do so and add their own.

the thing i tried to get interest in was the rateyourtd site, i thought if you combined politics.ie and that site you could go towards getting a very functional site that cold really start getting involved in realworld politics

the rateyoutd guy said he didn't have time to finish it, but if he and reduced the number of question, in putted particular newsstories to rate tds on, combined with p.ie it would get off to flying start. he already has scrapped some of the orieachtas site into useful pages on what tds say and do.

another blogger started doing a thing called vocal voter on it but stopped working on it.
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/

its makes it much easier to see what mps are doing, expenses and many other things, its help mps have public discussions with people over the internet, keeps a record on votes etc, it got its petitions widget on the downing street site,its great check it out.

its all opensource so someone could take the code and make an irish franchise of it, i'd love to but don't have the coding ability. they get gov grants and everything for it.
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PostSubject: Re: Towards a Charter and a Moderation Process   Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:29 am

cactus flower wrote:
Just dropping this in from lostexpection on
another thread - it is a different kind of look at how sites can and
should develop.
We could get too caught up in rules if we don't see
them in the wider context of what we are here for and how the site can
get better.
That lostexpectation post was a bit of a bomb out of the blue there - we should rope em in in a consultancy role. Great post - finger on the pulse of things there with the opensource. Pictures of Linus Torvalds not Bill Gates hang on the walls of Machine Nation here.

On your post above cactus, do I hear the hint that a site like this or any shouldn't just naval-gaze as you say but get its fingers into realworld politics as lostexpectation calls it..
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PostSubject: Re: Towards a Charter and a Moderation Process   Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:31 am

Auditor #9 wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
Just dropping this in from lostexpection on
another thread - it is a different kind of look at how sites can and
should develop.
We could get too caught up in rules if we don't see
them in the wider context of what we are here for and how the site can
get better.
That lostexpectation post was a bit of a bomb out of the blue there - we should rope em in in a consultancy role. Great post - finger on the pulse of things there with the opensource. Pictures of Linus Torvalds not Bill Gates hang on the walls of Machine Nation here.

On your post above cactus, do I hear the hint that a site like this or any shouldn't just naval-gaze as you say but get its fingers into realworld politics as lostexpectation calls it..

This is a good question Auditor. Who are we and where are we going?

Notdevsson wrote an interesting post yesterday about the development trajectory of forum sites - agreed with a lot of it: it is very well observed and deserves our careful attention. We do need to think about what kind of site we want to be and how much we want to grow, or not grow, and how we would try to manage that. I guess there are technical / capacity issues as well as all the core stuff NDS posted about.

This site has its own unique history, in that it emerged via the Refuge from the rib of P.ie, so to speak. It was set up with a lot of different stuff going on - great uncertainty about P.ie and no information, the realisation that the P.ie fabric could be torn asunder so easily and an important platform for debate and information lost, then there was rescue! and great resourcefulness in setting up the site, and appreciation by the rescued Very Happy. There was also a feeling of liberation from the tension, restrictions and frequent bias or irrationality of P.ie and a chance for posters to get to know each other as a much smaller family pack sized membership.

Because most posters rightly see P.ie as the main functioning political site, political posting in this site has remained embryonic in scale and quality, although with a lot of excellent posts. I think we have been skirting around that question, maybe no harm in that for a while, but if we ignore it too long I think the site would drift.

What is important to me in the site is that everyone should get a hearing and be treated with respect, whether or not they are agreed with. Personally I would like to see it have a serious political content and purpose, as (amongst other reasons) I think that there is too strong a political agenda in P.ie's owner for the site to maintain a true forum in the long term.

The sort of site lostexpectation and ibis are talking about seems to be a purpose -built functional site that allows the citizen to interact more directly with TDs and the system generally. That is clearly not us - but we may be able to develop a single good quality feature that is functional - it is worth thinking about. I am thinking of a few things that would be kind of event based as you know. Ooops. Sleep
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PostSubject: Re: Towards a Charter and a Moderation Process   Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:50 am

From Auditor - way back when...

Now, there's no replacing quality with quantity but I'd say a lot of the stuff here has been very playful and warm and friendly (and we were welcoming rakes of people with tea) but we could be just getting into the swing of things too.

My first line of the charter is getting born in my head and as I told Ard-T already it's all about how fun and play can lead to learning and understanding and more ... Anyone got any better structures than that?
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PostSubject: Re: Towards a Charter and a Moderation Process   Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:57 am

more old stuff from another thread


by cactus flower on Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:01 pmI have indulged in a little site hopping today and have come to the conclusion that in its short life Machine Nation has begun to develop a distinct character of its own. While it lacks the head nutting and testosterone charged rough ups that can make P.ie so engaging at times, Machine Nation compensates amply with a collective spirit of problem solving.

Machine Nation's threads at the moment have the edge in global awareness (not a small thing), Gaelic pedagogy, and cosy chats over a cup of tea. Machine Nation is showing a lively interest in economics, although more hands are needed on that deck.

It also has better smilies bounce

I would like to see Machine Nation continue to develop
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PostSubject: Re: Towards a Charter and a Moderation Process   Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:55 pm

Quote :
On your post above cactus, do I hear the hint that a site like this or any shouldn't just naval-gaze as you say but get its fingers into realworld politics as lostexpectation calls it..

well i wasn't suggesting all that for this site but i think most sites want to get involved in real world politics, often claim they do but don't manage it,or nearly not as much as they claim... p.ie, irishelection.com, etc...

so there few tds and vip posting on p.ie, most of them are people who are open to doing so, have is it made so technophobic politicians _have_ to post and respond to p.ie and other blogs, i don't think so.

theres an incredible amount of blowing their own trumpets on the blogoforumsphere, including this board eg the post above im not trying to be a know it all, but i just don't what its based on? as i said before this forum is new with few users, trying to be nice, we all agree it never lasts long.

something that has worked on places like p.ie and boards.ie is constant demand for sources to back up points, it raises peoples game although it takes more time/effort so you can sometimes end up with 2 or 3 people going back and forth cos nobody else can spend that time.

i know something that boards.ie does that p.ie never got around to is, suspensions, which i think somebody mentioned led to excessive bannings that only had to be overturned later. so a suspension system for hear,a couple of days to week for starters. did you see the (php) infractions system they started to use, it points like systme so every mod knows how a user is behaving across all forums. other thing you could use are meta-moderations,(user moderating mods,in tiny increments) slashdot type, comment rating +1, -1 etc,

how about auditor adds a chat page, people were wondering about it on p.ie but said it might kill the bbs discussion, but this is a new site, so you could try it without harm, it would make this site more different, i saw a thing called iVoice where you can talk (via your mike), type chat and browse the forums all at the same time on the same page, it 2008 are textual forums still the best way to have public discussions online, its a plugin that has to be installed though.., or you could use something like meebo which is light and allows automatic chatting with people browsing the same page.

more waffling/ideas

something that boards.ie is automatically give every use a blog, but strangely they haven't promoted that or their social.ie at all...??? im puzzled as to why.

something i've tried to do i i posted on forums for ages, but only recently started blogging, i just didn't have time to keep it up regularly enough or do well sourced,link filled posts but what i've started to do now if an issues arises i have an interest in like secularism ,ill post and discuss it with a few people on a forum, perhaps throw a few key thoughts into draft blog post and then let the idea cook for a few days then take a lot of the text i wrote in the forum plus what i've learned form other people and try to write a detailed well conceived post on it.

occasionally people notice, good analysis and perhaps insider or local, or post the cuts through the crap to the real story or more primary source info buried in the messy threads on p.ie why not harvest it into a quick summary of the story, dave puts stories onto the front page usually at the start of thread but why not select some interest quotes from poster and put a summary of thread on the frontpage after its gone a few pages/days.

if you made some examples of that on a forum/blog site you could get a hub of interesting posters blogging from your site,producing analysis and summaries to compete with the other good groups blogs like irishelection.com, dublinopinion,slugger etc

it kewl now to start a blog rather then website, when a traditional website/forum is the correct format for something, but i think a site like dailykos has got the right balance of blog/forum, its got much more discussion under each post then most other blogs, so its more then a blog. one thing that dailykos does is a regular thread rescue where it highlights good posts well written and source-linked. the only prob with dailykos system is that it doesn't merge posts on the same topic so you get loads of posts shouting about the same thing.


Last edited by lostexpectation on Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:49 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Towards a Charter and a Moderation Process   Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:15 pm

play the ball not the player
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PostSubject: Re: Towards a Charter and a Moderation Process   Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:24 pm

Thanks for that post lostexpectation. Yes this site is at an embryonic stage and may never go past that, or it may.
One basic question I can't answer right now in relation to this site is what is its capacity for growth, or its desire for growth. Neither do I know what its potential is in terms of content. I agree with you that the pressure of posters on each other to provide substantiation for their arguments is a good thing.

The post above was made a month ago, when the question was whether Machine Nation should continue at all, or whether it should stop since P.ie was back in action. The post reflects my personal views and feelings at that point, and nothing more.

It is very early days I think to know what, if anything, will be its future. But at the moment the people who post regularly are trying to put the basics in place and are working on that. You (along with one other poster) probably have the most breadth of knowledge of what is technically possible on a site for political discussion of the people who post here. You also have an interest in using the technology there is to open out new and better kinds of discussion. There is a situation here where people are open to listening to any suggestions you make.

I'm not fully clued in to what the chatting would involve but would appreciate any advice you can contribute.

I would like to ask you another time how did you lose your expectation.
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PostSubject: Re: Towards a Charter and a Moderation Process   Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:31 pm

cactus flower just had a post before me so don't miss that one...

lost, you seem to know the boards - please hang around here, we could be a Site of Sites if such a thing doesn't exist already (even discussion fora have to go through a bout of postmodernism i.e reference, pastiche, collage, meta everything)

Quote :
did you see the (php) infractions system they started to use, it points
like systme so every mod knows how a user is behaving across all
forums. other thing you could use are meta-moderations,(user moderating
mods,in tiny increments) slashdot type, comment rating +1, -1 etc,
I'm not over-familiar with slashdot but I know they have a fairly sophisticated rating system for posts and posters which is not a bad thing I suppose. Part of the draw of p.ie is the colourfulness that's allowed in... or that ends up there.. cuckoo clocks like us here really

As for the chat forum and so on - I'd be very comfortable with real-time chat corners but there's something incompatible about the voice side of it - if lads here want to speak then they could use skype and meebo is a chat program too is it? like ICQ (i'm imagining icq)

I think the written word without voice if fine for me though. It's a progression of the printed word isn't it? As opposed to chat which happens real-time, this form of forum posting has a static element to it...more like a book

this point
Quote :
something that has worked on places like p.ie and boards.ie is constant
demand for sources to back up points, it raises peoples game although
it takes more time/effort so you can sometimes end up with 2 or 3
people going back and forth cos nobody else can spend that time.
is a pertinent one in my view - a site could be as much about educating another person or yourself through arguement or dialogue than trying to win someone. Knowledge can be very powerful and effective to confront the real world and maybe that's where fora and the real world dovetail ...
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PostSubject: Re: Towards a Charter and a Moderation Process   Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:23 pm

well the cool thing about iVocalise (that's what its called) is that you don't have to use your mike and you can just type to respond to people and they to you, and post on the forums at the same time.

oh yes i remembered figured out what the new kewl next step in political discourse is, youtube. (with its reply to feature) forums are old hat :0)

has anyone participated in a youtube debate, i haven't i actually not that much of a geek.

boards.ie goes to its us site when it breaks

check this out auditor
http://www.irishwebmasterforum.com/
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PostSubject: Re: Towards a Charter and a Moderation Process   Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:30 pm

[/quote] is a pertinent one in my view - a site could be as much about educating another person or yourself through arguement or dialogue than trying to win someone. Knowledge can be very powerful and effective to confront the real world and maybe that's where fora and the real world dovetail ...[/quote]

the ibis/helium eu-military etc is good example of thread, its a bit circular but has loads of links and sources,but its so long/indepth no one else can catch up with it, something that happened with the boards politics forum, its gone so strict, there such a demand for source on every comment that people just wanting to have a chat about world events can't engage with it and stay on after hours, the free for all board populated by wannabee vigilantes obsessed with scumbags and foreigners.

another must is easy going female mods


Last edited by lostexpectation on Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Towards a Charter and a Moderation Process   Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:33 pm

never even heard of a youtube debate - can you describe it? did obama have anything to do with it?

I'm not into debating hugely but I enjoy teasing out ideas in science subjects and tormenting ibis Pax and Pidge that global warming isn't really happening.

I had a quick look at the webmaster forum - Dave Cochrane doesn't seem to be there unless using a different moniker. You must have come across that place on boards?
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PostSubject: Re: Towards a Charter and a Moderation Process   Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:38 pm

How about this?

The Laws of The Illustrious Sovereignty of Machine Nation and Out-lying Cantons are thus:

1.Keep on topic.
2.Ensure spelling and grammatical accuracy in everything you post.
3.Personalised attacks shall not be tolerated.
4.Spam will be deleted and recidivist spammers will be banned.
5.Posters who hide behind multiple usernames will be banned.
6.Trolls of all varieties will be given two warnings to desist. Failure to comply with this directive will result in banning.
7.Expletives and foul language used to excess will be frowned upon and the offending posts will be hidden and/or deleted.
8.Discrimination based on factors such as gender, politics, race, sexual orientation and so on will result in banning after failure to heed two warnings on the matter.
9.Educating yourself in the complexities of these fora will be encvouraged. Use tidy links, lists, YouTube embeds and so on to ensure clarity and brevity in expression.

That's all bad e-behaviour I can think of at the moment, let me know what you think of my list!
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PostSubject: Re: Towards a Charter and a Moderation Process   Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:00 pm

youtube debates, joe soaps just post ideas and people record a counter arguement video and they bounce back and forth and between lots of people, they can continue for many videos/months

a bad example

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=GIKUWgsIncg
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PostSubject: Re: Towards a Charter and a Moderation Process   Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:40 pm

Kate P wrote:
...which is why I think the site should be self-moderating by pm as far as possible.

I like the idea that rights bring responsibilities too and that posters are as responsible for one as they are entitled to the other.

It's useful to discuss these things from every angle though...

I agree with that self-moderating by pm approach. I think if we were to try and get everyone to read an agreed charter (by perhaps having it pop up for your first 20 or so posts) then, in effect, everyone is a knowledgable Mod.

So when a poster steps out of line and is in breach of the charter everyone knows about it and can see it so its less likely to continue by that poster. In contrast the same poster can feel 'put upon' by a Mod doing the same thing and can start up the Dev&Ed stuff we've seen on p.ie.
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PostSubject: Re: Towards a Charter and a Moderation Process   Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:51 pm

lostexpectation wrote
Quote :
another must is easy going female mods

Are you being harangued by power-crazed ladies, lostexpectation?

Pax wrote

Quote :
I agree with that self-moderating by pm approach. I think if we were to try and get everyone to read an agreed charter (by perhaps having it pop up for your first 20 or so posts) then, in effect, everyone is a knowledgable Mod.


If a charter popped up 5 times, as a new poster I'd reconsider doing something that might set off the sixth. But that's me. It raises the important question though, of finding a way to familiarise posters with the Charter so that the site is self-moderating as far as possible.


A-T that's a solid list and will be useful in setting up the Charter.
Is there a way of framing it more positively (!) so that rather than focussing on the negatives, we promote the positives? Maybe that's not realistic at all but...
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PostSubject: Re: Towards a Charter and a Moderation Process   Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:56 pm

Quote :
this point something that has worked on places like p.ie and boards.ie is constant
demand for sources to back up points, it raises peoples game although
it takes more time/effort so you can sometimes end up with 2 or 3
people going back and forth cos nobody else can spend that time. is a pertinent one in my view - a site could be as much about educating another person or yourself through arguement or dialogue than trying to win someone. Knowledge can be very powerful and effective to confront the real world and maybe that's where fora and the real world dovetail ...
[quote]

Not all threads have the same need for back-up but one that's evolved well in that regard here is the 'Let's start up a new country thread' or whatever it's called.

Does is need to be legislated for, or can that be part of the self-moderation angle? Over time posters who don't provide links where appropriate and having been asked for them will find that the discussion either dries up or that other posters provide the links and the discussion carries on without them.

Is this something that is better dealt with by posters in the context of each debate as it develops?
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PostSubject: Re: Towards a Charter and a Moderation Process   Sat Apr 12, 2008 12:02 am

Pax wrote:

I agree with that self-moderating by pm approach. I think if we were to try and get everyone to read an agreed charter (by perhaps having it pop up for your first 20 or so posts) then, in effect, everyone is a knowledgable Mod.
We already interviewed TheBear about p.ie and got some good tips. any inside stuff on the cedar lounge revolution ..?
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PostSubject: Re: Towards a Charter and a Moderation Process   Sat Apr 12, 2008 12:31 am

Auditor #9 wrote:
Pax wrote:

I agree with that self-moderating by pm approach. I think if we were to try and get everyone to read an agreed charter (by perhaps having it pop up for your first 20 or so posts) then, in effect, everyone is a knowledgable Mod.
We already interviewed TheBear about p.ie and got some good tips. any inside stuff on the cedar lounge revolution ..?

Well I've never started a thread there, only posted so far, and more recently since p.ie's backflips. I think starkadder's posting here now so maybe he can give the skinny?
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PostSubject: Re: Towards a Charter and a Moderation Process   Sat Apr 12, 2008 12:49 am

starkadder is posting here tonight? is he the capo de tutti capi on cedar lounge?
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PostSubject: Re: Towards a Charter and a Moderation Process   Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:50 pm

Kate P wrote:


A-T that's a solid list and will be useful in setting up the Charter.
Is there a way of framing it more positively (!) so that rather than focussing on the negatives, we promote the positives? Maybe that's not realistic at all but...

Well, I understand that it is framed in a negative manner, however I feel that behaviour of the sort which brings P.ie down in places must not be allowed to develop here. Strong and assertive laws from the out-set will ensure that a convivial, congenial and cordial atmosphere of elevated discourse continues to be the hallmark of the Sovereignty of Machine Nation. I'm interested only in the future health of Machine Nation. A course of firm but fair laws of behaviour will guard that for long into the future.
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PostSubject: Re: Towards a Charter and a Moderation Process   Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:53 pm

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:
Kate P wrote:


A-T that's a solid list and will be useful in setting up the Charter.
Is there a way of framing it more positively (!) so that rather than focussing on the negatives, we promote the positives? Maybe that's not realistic at all but...

Well, I understand that it is framed in a negative manner, however I feel that behaviour of the sort which brings P.ie down in places must not be allowed to develop here. Strong and assertive laws from the out-set will ensure that a convivial, congenial and cordial atmosphere of elevated discourse continues to be the hallmark of the Sovereignty of Machine Nation. I'm interested only in the future health of Machine Nation. A course of firm but fair laws of behaviour will guard that for long into the future.

Personally I feel that the welcoming cup of tea sets the tone for enjoyable and constructive engagement with the issues in hand.
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PostSubject: Re: Towards a Charter and a Moderation Process   Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:01 pm

cactus flower wrote:
Ard-Taoiseach wrote:
Kate P wrote:


A-T that's a solid list and will be useful in setting up the Charter.
Is there a way of framing it more positively (!) so that rather than focussing on the negatives, we promote the positives? Maybe that's not realistic at all but...

Well, I understand that it is framed in a negative manner, however I feel that behaviour of the sort which brings P.ie down in places must not be allowed to develop here. Strong and assertive laws from the out-set will ensure that a convivial, congenial and cordial atmosphere of elevated discourse continues to be the hallmark of the Sovereignty of Machine Nation. I'm interested only in the future health of Machine Nation. A course of firm but fair laws of behaviour will guard that for long into the future.

Personally I feel that the welcoming cup of tea sets the tone for enjoyable and constructive engagement with the issues in hand.

Oh, for sure. I'm no task-master, I like having fun threads and lots of craic and getting into really interesting discussion, but I'm interested in keeping that level of friendly discussion going into the future. As the Machine Nation expands, the small core of original members who keep everything together will have more and more demands put on their attention meaning that some little errrants can slip through and cause trouble. These laws can ensure that we can catch them and put them to rights.
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PostSubject: Re: Towards a Charter and a Moderation Process   Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:07 pm

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
Ard-Taoiseach wrote:
Kate P wrote:


A-T that's a solid list and will be useful in setting up the Charter.
Is there a way of framing it more positively (!) so that rather than focussing on the negatives, we promote the positives? Maybe that's not realistic at all but...

Well, I understand that it is framed in a negative manner, however I feel that behaviour of the sort which brings P.ie down in places must not be allowed to develop here. Strong and assertive laws from the out-set will ensure that a convivial, congenial and cordial atmosphere of elevated discourse continues to be the hallmark of the Sovereignty of Machine Nation. I'm interested only in the future health of Machine Nation. A course of firm but fair laws of behaviour will guard that for long into the future.

Personally I feel that the welcoming cup of tea sets the tone for enjoyable and constructive engagement with the issues in hand.

Oh, for sure. I'm no task-master, I like having fun threads and lots of craic and getting into really interesting discussion, but I'm interested in keeping that level of friendly discussion going into the future. As the Machine Nation expands, the small core of original members who keep everything together will have more and more demands put on their attention meaning that some little errrants can slip through and cause trouble. These laws can ensure that we can catch them and put them to rights.

Agreed Ard-Taoiseach: I have been wrecking my head on the following all weekend and feel a little clearer now.

1. Defamation - what is fair comment, proven fact, honest opinion – there is quite a lot written on this –

http://www.tuppenceworth.ie/Politics/libellaw.html
by CJH on http://indigo.ie/~kwood/defamation.htm
http://indigo.ie/~kwood/defamation.htm

2. Incitement to hatred Evil or Very Mad – no sources yet
3. Information on shares – does this just relate to named shares ? or general comment like “ I think such and such a bank is in trouble”
4. Obscenity – no idea about this ... Embarassed

I think I have most of the information needed now, but it is stretching over 50 pages and i promised to deliver a concise paragraph...
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