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 Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim

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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Sun Mar 08, 2009 11:56 am

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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:37 pm

Thanks for that link Auditor. I feel sick to my stomach that this is still happening on our island. Lets hope these psychopaths are caught soon and their organisation destroyed so that the tremendous progress the North has experienced in recent years can continue. My sympathys are with the families of the men who died.
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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:42 pm

rockyracoon wrote:
An act of utter futility. It achieves nothing and plays into the hands of hard-line unionists in the north, south and UK. And just c. 48 hours after the "official" announcement. The dissidents had several years in which to carry out futile acts when the brit army was serverly over streched in Iraq and Afghanistan. Why choose the very moment the birts say they now have the resources to tackle them?

And just to put a stop to the revisionist nonsense that the brits had fully infiltrated the IRA. If so, why was the IRA able to operate for over 35 years in one of the most securitised pieces of real estate in the world. Did the brits have full knowledge but let the war continue? Why? Why were large swathes of Derry, Tyrone, Fermanagh and Armagh no go areas unless the brits enterted in full military formation? Anyway, I willing to bet the brits have more operatives embedded in the Dublin power structure than ever operated in the north.

At the moment I have to believe it was the dissidents who carried out the act. However, the timing and severity of the act in the wake of the security announcement begs several questions? Why now? Why was such a high level target so easily attacked just after the announcement of hightened security. Have the dissidents been able to spread disinformation via an embedded brit operative to the brit securocrats? If so, it doesn't bode well for so-called brit intelligence.

With the devolution of policing and the local elections coming up, there is only one loser - SF. The unionists can now stonewall with impunity. The securocrats can play divide and conquer. Does the brit army and securocrat structure belive they have some unfinished biz in the six counties. Is a blitz of britishisation and quelling of the natives believed to be required?

The southern Irish govt just received a whole pile of news deflection as they announce further budget cuts, and they'll do a wee bit more history revision via RTE and others no doubt.

As for the dissidents. Einsteins they ain't - long term logical thinking isn't their forte. I suppose they hope this will expose SF as wannabe brits or something. Who knows.

I couldn't help noticing that some posters are almost gleeful that these the events are taking place. I can't fathom their glee or their underlying motivations. Obviously, they don't live in the six counties and don't have ties. I suppose other people's distress is somehow viewed as an opportunity for them.
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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Sun Mar 08, 2009 1:05 pm

Just lost two long posts and no time to rewrite. Rockyracoon, I am certainly not gleeful about this, and I don't see it in other posts either. Perhaps I'm missing something. I like the quiet life. I feel angry and concerned but not all that surprised.

From the early 1970s the British government has taken advantage of events like this to introduce legislation and other measures that has transformed it to the near police state that they now have in Britain. These measures (sometimes as with Thatcher in the Miners' strike ) were turned against the trade unions. The Birmingham bombs were followed on immediately with the Prevention of Terrorism Act. The Dublin and Monaghan bombings used the same means for a different agenda.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_and_Monaghan_bombings

Quote :
why was the IRA able to operate for over 35 years in one of the most securitised pieces of real estate in the world
That is a good question. I don't think the Republican movement was 100% run by the IS or that the whole of the British establishment knows everything done in its name, but the British army and Intelligence services have had plenty of interest in staying in Ireland, and Britain didn't get to rule the world that time though being cosy. A lot of what they did in the North they transferred to Iraq. A war is not a bother to an army.

I mentioned before that this drive by shooting is redolent of Iraq: they were happenening every other day there, and on a few occasions British and US personnel were caught out doing them.


Last edited by cactus flower on Sun Mar 08, 2009 1:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Sun Mar 08, 2009 1:15 pm

People here seem to think that this may have been orchestrated by the BA. I can see no possible reason in the current climate for such a supposition. It is of no surprise to me that a group of dissendents should catch some soldiers of guard while accepting a pizza delivery. If the dissidents are prepared to try again and again then sooner or later they will succeed. Just as in this country despite surveillance and police thick on the ground on the streets of certain Limerick estates the killers find a way to shoot down their targets. There is nothing bizarre or unbelievable about what has occurred other than the fact that those appaling people consider their twisted goals require them to act against the will of the vast majority of Irish people.
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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Sun Mar 08, 2009 1:30 pm

Quote :
I can see no possible reason in the current climate for such a supposition

I would say that it is well possible that it was done by dissidents or with genuine dissident involvement but also very possibly not. The current climate, of which the UK state is very well aware, is that Ireland (the Republic) is in a volatile situation with a government that has lost public support and mass demonstrations and strikes starting up. They will also have considered what might happen and how they might respond to it in the event of default and wider Iceland type unrest.

Where we all seem to agree is that an act like that is futile or counterproductive for republicans.
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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Sun Mar 08, 2009 1:47 pm

cactus flower wrote:

Where we all seem to agree is that an act like that is futile or counterproductive for republicans.

Exactly.

Could it be something random or gang-related like we see around here from time to time ? Spurious ?

Why why why


more BBC from MarkyMarkDCU. Low sound. You can go and read the comments.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzDT4s-a3J0
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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Sun Mar 08, 2009 2:22 pm

cactus flower wrote:
Quote :
I can see no possible reason in the current climate for such a supposition

I would say that it is well possible that it was done by dissidents or with genuine dissident involvement but also very possibly not. The current climate, of which the UK state is very well aware, is that Ireland (the Republic) is in a volatile situation with a government that has lost public support and mass demonstrations and strikes starting up. They will also have considered what might happen and how they might respond to it in the event of default and wider Iceland type unrest.

Where we all seem to agree is that an act like that is futile or counterproductive for republicans.
Can you expand further on how lasts nights incident might have some bearing on the scenario you have suggested?
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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Sun Mar 08, 2009 2:25 pm

It is a well known fact that, although the Provisional IRA had been almost entirely infultrated by the time of the Downing Street Declaration, it is not the case in relation to the dissidents of today. When the RUC was disbanded and reformed to the PSNI most of the detectives were given pay offs and retired, it has been known for several years that as a result there is very little intelligence on these groups. Obviously this is something which both the Gardaí and the PSNI have increasingly sought to address and it has not been as big an issue until relatively recently because these groups appeared to lack capacity. However, the attempted major bomb a month ago followed by this changes that situation drastically.

One thing about this particular base is that it was mainly an Engineering Corps base, it was not an obvious target either as a base or in terms of its location. This base was never even attacked during the Troubles. I think you will find the security forces were probably badly caught out on this.

It is important that the human tragedy is not lost in this. Operation Banner is over, the IRA has ceased activities, any "war" which did or may have existed is now over. This was murder, plain and simple. Not only that, but there are also civilians in hospital, who may themselves die over the coming days, resulting from this attack.

Cactus, you are becoming increasingly paranoid regarding the security of the state.

Let us not forget that plenty of terrorist attacks are ill conceived and do more harm than good to the cause of those who carry them out. That was the case at Enniskillen, it was the case at Omagh and it was the case at Bloody Sunday.


Last edited by johnfás on Sun Mar 08, 2009 3:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Sun Mar 08, 2009 2:57 pm

Pish. Many, many times the brits had told us the IRA was on the ropes, infiltrated or near defeat. The revisionism so accepted now is nothing but a cover for the fact that the securocrats couldn't defeat a bunch of farmers, factory workers, hairdressers, etc.

Anyhow. This isnt' theory. This isn't some far off land. I'm after getting off the phone with a relative in Tyrone who made a couple of good points. Since when did undercover operatives, who by the nature of their job are supposed to keep everything secret, publically announce their arrival. Secondly the announcement last Friday just sank her heart. She knew that something was bound to happen. "It was inevitable." There has been stepped up police activity in a local town along the border but the population was just trying to get on with life, but there seems to be a real desire by the securocrats to stir the shite in some quarters.

Thinking back, I had hoped that FF's foray into the six counties would signal a real engagement by the southern establishment. It seems, bar the occassional bard tossed at SF, that the office dealing with cross border matters is moribund, and the political will to engage is limited at best. I wonder if a vacuum is developing.

Hopefully, this will blow over but I doubt it. There is a sense on the ground that the securocrats and their masters have some unfinished business. The dissidents are fairly powerless as evidenced in their electoral showing in Fermanagh. Their acts are futile and will not be accepted by the vast majority of people.

I just hope I don't see a repeat whereby children like my cousins were nearly murdered by brit bullets in their cot; nor that a couple of innocent school children will be mown down by the SAS in field by their home like school mates of mine; nor that a deaf and dumb fella with a paint brush won't be murdered by "accident"; or that an acquaitance's brother won't be murdered on his way to a football match. I lived with brit security and was quite glad when they retired from our counties. The daily doses of normalised terrorism have been removed from 3 counties entirely.

Above all I hope that a few dissidents don't give them the excuse to save face and move forces into every area. Cope yourselves on. Republicanism has moved on beyond that even merely defined by Irish history and cirsumstance.
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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Sun Mar 08, 2009 3:22 pm

johnfás wrote:
It is a well known fact that, although the Provisional IRA had been almost entirely infultrated by the time of the Downing Street Declaration, it is not the case in relation to the dissidents of today. When the RUC was disbanded and reformed to the PSNI most of the detectives were given pay offs and retired, it has been known for several years that as a result there is very little intelligence on these groups. Obviously this is something which both the Gardaí and the PSNI have increasingly sought to address and it has not been as big an issue until relatively recently because these groups appeared to lack capacity. However, the attempted major bomb a month ago followed by this changes that situation drastically.

One thing about this particular base is that it was mainly an Engineering Corps base, it was not an obvious target either as a base or in terms of its location. This base was never even attacked during the Troubles. I think you will find the security forces were probably badly caught out on this.

It is important that the human tragedy is not lost in this. Operation Banner is over, the IRA has ceased activities, any "war" which did or may have existed is now over. This was murder, plain and simple. Not only that, but there are also civilians in hospital, who may themselves die over the coming days, resulting from this attack.

Cactus, you are becoming increasingly paranoid regarding the security of the state.

Let us not forget that plenty of terrorist attacks are ill conceived and do more harm than good to the cause of those who carry them out. That was the case at Enniskillen, it was the case at Omagh and it was the case at Bloody Sunday.

It's a well established fact in your head johnfás. Cactus is far from paranoid and is asking very legitimate questions. Rockyracoon has summed up the situation more eloquently than I could but for once could you sit back and think and not go to the automatic default position such as I heard on todayfm. Moore Mc Dowell and Lucinda atop the dung heap trying to hold Sinn Féin responsible for this attack. Utter boll*x.
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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Sun Mar 08, 2009 4:11 pm

Just posted this over on the Pan European Libertas thread. Ganley has just appointed Lord Charles Guthrie, former UK Chief of Staff and the former US Chief of Staff to run Rivada while he runs his political career - looking for Presidency of EU ?

This refers to some of what Guthrie was responsible for in Ireland. I am totally against the kind of paranoia that panics people and tars everyone liberally with the spook brush, neither do I think these people are anything like all-powerful string-pullers, but there is no point in being wilfully naive about the role of Intelligence Services and psyops either.

http://www.iol.ie/~pfc/fru/fru22022k1c.html

Imokyrok - I can't prove what I say about readiness for civil unrest. Do you think that is not the case? Just a report here from yesterday's Guardian - sorry its not a direct answer to your question.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/mar/06/police-surveillance-protesters-journalists-climate-kingsnorth
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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Sun Mar 08, 2009 5:59 pm

I guess I'm being very dense and not comprehending your last two posts Cactus. Are you saying that you consider the UK authorities may have had a reason to commit a false flag operation in the North because they have concerns about civil unrest in Ireland? 
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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Sun Mar 08, 2009 8:01 pm

imokyrok wrote:
I guess I'm being very dense and not comprehending your last two posts Cactus. Are you saying that you consider the UK authorities may have had a reason to commit a false flag operation in the North because they have concerns about civil unrest in Ireland? 

I've said that I don't know who did it, that imo it could have been either dissidents, the British state or a combination of the two, and that on past performance segments of the British state are well capable of false flag operations. As with the Birmingham and Dublin and Monaghan bombings we may never know for sure. In terms of possible motivation, and who gains, there doesn't seem to be anyone who can see a benefit from this to republicanism. Destabilisation of the current political framework in the North and awareness of the possibility of instability in the Republic may have provided a motivation to justify a geared up military presence. Hugh Orde said today he had half expected an incident in the south. Why would dissident republicans have attacked a target in the south?

This story, and similar, was widely reported from Iraq -

Quote :


The SAS in Basra

In Basra on September 19th 2005, suspicious Iraqi police stopped undercover British soldiers in a Toyota Cressida. The two men then opened fire, killing one policeman and wounding another. Eventually captured, they were identified by the BBC as members of the SAS elite special forces. The soldiers were in wigs and dressed as Arabs and their car was packed with explosives and towing equipment. (15) Fattah al-Shaykh, a member of the Iraqi National Assembly, told Al-Jazeera TV that the car was meant to explode in the centre of Basra’s popular market. Before his thesis could be confirmed, however, the British army’s tanks flattened the local prison cell and freed their sinister operatives.
http://www.israelshamir.net/Contributors/Contributor42.htm



From what rockyracoon says, there is no support for this kind of attack amonst people in Northern Ireland. There doesnt seem to be any here either. I don't see any reason to assume that this was a dissident republican attack unless it is proven to be one.

http://www.sundayherald.com/misc/print.php?artid=1152814
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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Sun Mar 08, 2009 8:09 pm

cactus flower wrote:
Why would dissident republicans have attacked a target in the south?

Why not?

Perhaps you misunderstand the position of such dissident republicans. The position is not a desire to subsume Northern Ireland into the Republic of Ireland. The position is non recognition of either jurisdiction as currently constituted. The Garda Síochána (the police force of an "illegitimate state") are consequently just as much a target as those north of the border. It is for this reason that it was perfectly "acceptable" to kill members of the Gardaí such as Gerry McCabe.

As the primary aim is the forcing out of a British presence on the island, and given that most members of these organisations are based in the north, the obvious targets are in the North. However, the Irish State is considered an equally legitimate target.
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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Sun Mar 08, 2009 8:38 pm

johnfás wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
Why would dissident republicans have attacked a target in the south?

Why not?

Perhaps you misunderstand the position of such dissident republicans. The position is not a desire to subsume Northern Ireland into the Republic of Ireland. The position is non recognition of either jurisdiction as currently constituted. The Garda Síochána (the police force of an "illegitimate state") are consequently just as much a target as those north of the border. It is for this reason that it was perfectly "acceptable" to kill members of the Gardaí such as Gerry McCabe.

As the primary aim is the forcing out of a British presence on the island, and given that most members of these organisations are based in the north, the obvious targets are in the North. However, the Irish State is considered an equally legitimate target.

Have they carried out any attacks in the south ? and how many in Northern Ireland ?
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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:02 pm

The Real IRA has sent a recognised code-word to the Sunday Tribune claiming responsibility - South Antrim Brigade apparently...
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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:14 pm

toxic avenger wrote:
The Real IRA has sent a recognised code-word to the Sunday Tribune claiming responsibility - South Antrim Brigade apparently...

I think it is more apt to refer to the "so-called Real IRA" and "so-called South Antrim Brigade". Just because some group of nuts call themselves the IRA and a brigade doesn't make them anything more than a group of murdering thugs with guns and a high level of self-delusion.
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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:17 pm

And thankfully that is exactly what RTE described them as, Papal Knight.
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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:29 pm

Link here -

Quote :
The Sunday Tribune newspaper in Dublin has reportedly been given a recognised codeword during a phone call from the South Antrim Brigade of the Real IRA.

Meanwhile, a pizza delivery man injured in the shooting has been named locally.

Anthony Watson, 19, who lives in the Antrim area, is in hospital in a serious condition after the incident in front of the main gates of the Massereene Barracks.

One of his colleagues from Domino's, a 32-year-old Polish national, is said to be critical.

Two British soldiers were killed and four people - including the two pizza men - were injured in the shooting, which has been blamed on dissident republicans.

LINK

http://tonysharp.blogspot.com/2008/02/real-ira-considering-attacks-in-britain.html


This is an interview with a R IRA member about a year ago. http://admin2.7.forumer.com/a/sunday-tribune-interview-with-rira-army-council-member_post8332.html
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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:05 am

Papal_knight Two wrote:
toxic avenger wrote:
The Real IRA has sent a recognised code-word to the Sunday Tribune claiming responsibility - South Antrim Brigade apparently...

I think it is more apt to refer to the "so-called Real IRA" and "so-called South Antrim Brigade". Just because some group of nuts call themselves the IRA and a brigade doesn't make them anything more than a group of murdering thugs with guns and a high level of self-delusion.

Papal

On that I fully agree.

There will be a united Ireland one day and killing other people who live on the island does not advance that cause.
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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:12 am

The comments on the vlog mention 'false flag'


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0NjV3ino6I
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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:22 am

The so-called Real IRA have apparently described the Domino's Pizza deliverymen as “collaborators of British rule in Ireland”. The 'collaborators' are a Polish bloke and a 19 year old no doubt earning pocket money. These f*ckers need to be stamped on, you can't reason with views like that.

The number of people over on the other site in a state of ecstatic glee about this is frightening. Merle, as usual, makes no bones about it, but some of the others have actually shocked me. I objected to the gloating but to no avail, I appear not to be sufficiently 'nationally minded'. Reason can not be employed with such mindsets.
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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:34 am

toxic avenger wrote:
The so-called Real IRA have apparently described the Domino's Pizza deliverymen as “collaborators of British rule in Ireland”. The 'collaborators' are a Polish bloke and a 19 year old no doubt earning pocket money. These f*ckers need to be stamped on, you can't reason with views like that.

The number of people over on the other site in a state of ecstatic glee about this is frightening. Merle, as usual, makes no bones about it, but some of the others have actually shocked me. I objected to the gloating but to no avail, I appear not to be sufficiently 'nationally minded'. Reason can not be employed with such mindsets.

This is what Adams has said

Quote :
"Last night's attack was an attack on the peace process. It was wrong and counter productive," Mr Adams said.

"Those responsible have no support, no strategy to achieve a United Ireland.

"Their intention is to bring British soldiers back onto the streets. They want to destroy the progress of recent times and to plunge Ireland back into conflict.

"Irish republicans and democrats have a duty to oppose this and to defend the peace process.

"Sinn Fein has a strategy to bring about an end to British rule in our country by peaceful and democratic means.

"...We support the police in the apprehension of those involved in last night's attack."

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/5/20090308/tuk-sinn-fein-s-gerry-adams-condemns-ni-45dbed5.html

Why the hell would they have done it right now though - is it just a reckless useless act which needed no provocation?
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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Mon Mar 09, 2009 5:02 am

It's been in the offing for a couple of years now. They stepped up the game about a year or so ago, that they would kill someone was almost inevitable. Their view, as espoused by merle in a long argument I had with him last night, seems to be that such actions aren't intended for military victory, only for stirring the pot, getting a response, sucking everyone back in and thus making out that British policy is a failure. When I question this in more detail, it gets very vague, lots of generalisations and cloud-cuckoo nonsense. Those that quibble are called Brit-lovers and nancy boys. I'd love to see the sane posters on that site descend en masse on the thread to condemn it, but a number seem to be deliberately avoiding confronting it.
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