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 Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim

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PostSubject: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Sun Mar 08, 2009 3:01 am

Reports are coming in of the shooting dead of two military personnel and four others at a drive-by shooting outside an Army barracks in Antrim. Republican dissidents suspected.
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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Sun Mar 08, 2009 3:10 am

Also here

http://machinenation.forumakers.com/local-and-regional-f21/army-intelligence-redeployed-to-the-north-t2086.htm#73396

Would you expect this to preclude a stepping up of British military presence ?
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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Sun Mar 08, 2009 3:23 am

I don't know who shot these people but it has a very unpleasent and familiar whiff to it. It is very convenient for the introduction of 'special' forces last Friday. 'Dissidents' can't let off a sparkler but managed to get into a Barrack and shot a line of army personnel. I'm still wondering.
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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Sun Mar 08, 2009 3:27 am

SeathrúnCeitinn wrote:
I don't know who shot these people but it has a very unpleasent and familiar whiff to it. It is very convenient for the introduction of 'special' forces last Friday. 'Dissidents' can't let off a sparkler but managed to get into a Barrack and shot a line of army personnel. I'm still wondering.

I'm wondering too - there is something about drive by shooting that says Iraq to me.

http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&q=Drive+by+shooting+Iraq&btnG=Google+Search&meta=


Last edited by cactus flower on Sun Mar 08, 2009 3:29 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Sun Mar 08, 2009 3:28 am

It happened outside the barracks according to most media reports.
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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Sun Mar 08, 2009 3:35 am

All very funny all right given yesterday's news re special forces back operating in the North. Would they offer up 2 killed and 4 injured to the pr campaign though?
it is hard to tell.

Given how well they had the Provos infiltrated and Sinn fein nothing can be ruled out


Last edited by Frightened Albanian on Sun Mar 08, 2009 3:37 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Sun Mar 08, 2009 3:36 am

We seem to have set off every forum monitor in the northern hemisphere.
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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Sun Mar 08, 2009 3:38 am

What are they?
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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Sun Mar 08, 2009 3:40 am

Frightened Albanian wrote:
What are they?

We had twenty visitors.
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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Sun Mar 08, 2009 3:43 am

They're is talk on BBC about a pizza delivery van. There's one way in and one way out of that barrack and the front fence has more cameras than the oscars. It is just way too convenient for 'dissidents' to have carried this out on their todd. Unbelievably so.
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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Sun Mar 08, 2009 3:45 am

Is there anything going on, apart from the potential for upheaval from the economic crisis, that would provide a political background for this ?
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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Sun Mar 08, 2009 3:50 am

Interesting empowerment of the dissidents over the Shinners by according them the high threat status and then this. Hamas v. the PLO?
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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Sun Mar 08, 2009 3:57 am

It seems straightforward really.

Both the Irish and British government have been aware for over a month that dissident republicans have been getting closer and closer to succeeding in killing someone. There have been a couple of near misses. Not too long ago a Real IRA bomb failed luckily. By a tragic fluke if it had gone off a bus carrying four and five year olds would have been blown up. It was judged that the risk was now sufficiently big to warrant the return of some special forces. A dissident republican group tonight succeeded, being aware that some staff in this barracks on Saturday would order in pizzas. They arrived and as soldiers came out to pick up the pizzas opened fire.

The danger now is twofold. Dissident Republicans want Loyalists to respond by murdering a Catholic. They can then 'justify' a response and set off a tit-for-tat battle that would drive terrified nationalists towards violence.

Secondly, from our own perspective this will cause massive problems we don't need. "Violence in Ireland" willgive another reason, possibly the tipping reason, for some companies debating whether to pull out of Ireland another reason. (Remember Americans often cannot distinguish between North and South. Both are "Ireland" in their eyes. It will do yet more damage to the tourism industry, and if a new tit-for-tat battle begins, it will cost the Irish government millions in terms of beefing up resources again in the PDF, RDF and the Garda Síochana.

Finally the timing is crucial. This week the House of Commons was debating a bill to return responsibility for policing to Northern Ireland. Dissident republicans hope this will make Unionists back off supporting policing return, in turn leading to a row with SF and a possible collapse of the executive.
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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Sun Mar 08, 2009 3:59 am

cactus flower wrote:
Is there anything going on, apart from the potential for upheaval from the economic crisis, that would provide a political background for this ?

The Bill on policing going through Westminster.
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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Sun Mar 08, 2009 4:17 am

The local SDLP councillor is saying dissident republicans. It is odd, this pizza story, but perhaps complacency over the last few years makes it not so odd. Over on P.ie they're already saying 'black ops' but shooting their own soldiers is a bit extreme, even for the British. I'm inclined to believe it's our fascist friends in the CIRA.
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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Sun Mar 08, 2009 4:21 am

Papal_knight Two wrote:
It seems straightforward really.

Both the Irish and British government have been aware for over a month that dissident republicans have been getting closer and closer to succeeding in killing someone. There have been a couple of near misses. Not too long ago a Real IRA bomb failed luckily. By a tragic fluke if it had gone off a bus carrying four and five year olds would have been blown up. It was judged that the risk was now sufficiently big to warrant the return of some special forces. A dissident republican group tonight succeeded, being aware that some staff in this barracks on Saturday would order in pizzas. They arrived and as soldiers came out to pick up the pizzas opened fire.

The danger now is twofold. Dissident Republicans want Loyalists to respond by murdering a Catholic. They can then 'justify' a response and set off a tit-for-tat battle that would drive terrified nationalists towards violence.

Secondly, from our own perspective this will cause massive problems we don't need. "Violence in Ireland" willgive another reason, possibly the tipping reason, for some companies debating whether to pull out of Ireland another reason. (Remember Americans often cannot distinguish between North and South. Both are "Ireland" in their eyes. It will do yet more damage to the tourism industry, and if a new tit-for-tat battle begins, it will cost the Irish government millions in terms of beefing up resources again in the PDF, RDF and the Garda Síochana.

Finally the timing is crucial. This week the House of Commons was debating a bill to return responsibility for policing to Northern Ireland. Dissident republicans hope this will make Unionists back off supporting policing return, in turn leading to a row with SF and a possible collapse of the executive.

You're sounding like you're relishing the prospect. You don't know who carried this attack out and the above analysis is utter rubbish. Do you believe everything you read in the papers? ' - 'tragic fluke' You should have been working in the NIO press office in the eighties. Just stop for once and ask yourself who could have carried this out? Why would they carry this out? When is it happening? What would they have to gain? and finally have you ever been in Antrim Town?
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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Sun Mar 08, 2009 4:26 am

toxic avenger wrote:
The local SDLP councillor is saying dissident republicans. It is odd, this pizza story, but perhaps complacency over the last few years makes it not so odd. Over on P.ie they're already saying 'black ops' but shooting their own soldiers is a bit extreme, even for the British. I'm inclined to believe it's our fascist friends in the CIRA.

Again toxic I don't know who carried this out and i'm certainly not defending the CIRA nor i'm a knee jerkingly shoutin' psyops but this is way too convenient for Hugh Orde's statement. If his intelligence is that good then why weren't they nabbed?
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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Sun Mar 08, 2009 4:33 am

Didn't I read a couple of days ago that the security threat had been elevated to 'severe'? There's one thing for certain, the Provos were riddled like woodworm with plants and informers and these boys aren't even close to the Provos in terms of security and sophistication, so I'd be highly surprised to learn that the British didn't know something was happening tonight. But I still reckon it was a dissident job.
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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Sun Mar 08, 2009 4:44 am

toxic avenger wrote:
Didn't I read a couple of days ago that the security threat had been elevated to 'severe'? There's one thing for certain, the Provos were riddled like woodworm with plants and informers and these boys aren't even close to the Provos in terms of security and sophistication, so I'd be highly surprised to learn that the British didn't know something was happening tonight. But I still reckon it was a dissident job.

If they did know then why weren't they sitting on top of the 'dissidents'? It's just too simple. Even those that suport these groups are sittting on their hands because they don't have a clue who did it.
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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Sun Mar 08, 2009 4:51 am

It's certainly too early to pass definitive judgment on it. The British, or elements within the system, are more than capable of ropey dealings, including sabotage of the peace deal. CIRA or RIRA are also capable of doing this by themselves with no help from anyone. I'll just watch and wait.
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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Sun Mar 08, 2009 4:58 am

toxic avenger wrote:
It's certainly too early to pass definitive judgment on it. The British, or elements within the system, are more than capable of ropey dealings, including sabotage of the peace deal. CIRA or RIRA are also capable of doing this by themselves with no help from anyone. I'll just watch and wait.

We'll all be doing that.
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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Sun Mar 08, 2009 5:12 am

SeathrúnCeitinn wrote:
Papal_knight Two wrote:
It seems straightforward really.

Both the Irish and British government have been aware for over a month that dissident republicans have been getting closer and closer to succeeding in killing someone. There have been a couple of near misses. Not too long ago a Real IRA bomb failed luckily. By a tragic fluke if it had gone off a bus carrying four and five year olds would have been blown up. It was judged that the risk was now sufficiently big to warrant the return of some special forces. A dissident republican group tonight succeeded, being aware that some staff in this barracks on Saturday would order in pizzas. They arrived and as soldiers came out to pick up the pizzas opened fire.

The danger now is twofold. Dissident Republicans want Loyalists to respond by murdering a Catholic. They can then 'justify' a response and set off a tit-for-tat battle that would drive terrified nationalists towards violence.

Secondly, from our own perspective this will cause massive problems we don't need. "Violence in Ireland" willgive another reason, possibly the tipping reason, for some companies debating whether to pull out of Ireland another reason. (Remember Americans often cannot distinguish between North and South. Both are "Ireland" in their eyes. It will do yet more damage to the tourism industry, and if a new tit-for-tat battle begins, it will cost the Irish government millions in terms of beefing up resources again in the PDF, RDF and the Garda Síochana.

Finally the timing is crucial. This week the House of Commons was debating a bill to return responsibility for policing to Northern Ireland. Dissident republicans hope this will make Unionists back off supporting policing return, in turn leading to a row with SF and a possible collapse of the executive.

You're sounding like you're relishing the prospect. You don't know who carried this attack out and the above analysis is utter rubbish. Do you believe everything you read in the papers? ' - 'tragic fluke' You should have been working in the NIO press office in the eighties. Just stop for once and ask yourself who could have carried this out? Why would they carry this out? When is it happening? What would they have to gain? and finally have you ever been in Antrim Town?

1. I am anything but 'relishing the prospect'.

2. I am in a position to know more than is public right now.

3. I don't believe everything I read in the newspapers. I know enough about the newspapers to discount most of what is in them. I have other direct sources on issues.

4. I know the reports as to what has been happening.

5. Because they want to provoke inter-communal warfare again because they believe that in inter-communal warfare public opinion will become polarised and their support base will rocket, supplying them with activists, weaponry and money. They have been over the last seven months seeking new weaponry from Eastern Europe through links with criminal organisations with a view to luring loyalists into a new shooting war.

6. This is the sixth attempt in seven weeks to provoke a reaction. The previous ones failed but alerted the security forces north and south as to what was going on. The dissident groups are infiltrated by spies but by their nature authority for attacks is not being sought through the chain of command and so the security forces as not in a position to know the specifics of every attack. Where they have been they have stopped them.

7. I know Antrim well. I have lived there. I have relatives there and I was there two weeks ago.
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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Sun Mar 08, 2009 5:21 am

toxic avenger wrote:
Didn't I read a couple of days ago that the security threat had been elevated to 'severe'? There's one thing for certain, the Provos were riddled like woodworm with plants and informers and these boys aren't even close to the Provos in terms of security and sophistication, so I'd be highly surprised to learn that the British didn't know something was happening tonight. But I still reckon it was a dissident job.

Toxic: no matter how well an institution is infiltrated no-one will know everything. Ministers don't even know everything that happens in their own private offices, let alone be in a position to know everything that is happening throughout a terrorist group. Even the head of the dissident group won't know everything. Governments can know that 'something' is going to happen. They can have their people trying to find out what, where and when. But it is needle-in-a-haystack stuff. If they are lucky someone in some unit will have heard something and mentioned it to someone who is a spy who reported it back. A phone-tap may have found some call from someone. But more often than not they know that 'something' is planned but don't know where or when. At the height of the troubles the gardaí, the RUC and the army may know that an attack will happen somewhere in North Belfast on Tuesday sometime, but not where exactly, when exactly or against who exactly. That is the reality of security policing.
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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Sun Mar 08, 2009 5:28 am

Papal_knight Two wrote:
SeathrúnCeitinn wrote:
Papal_knight Two wrote:
It seems straightforward really.

Both the Irish and British government have been aware for over a month that dissident republicans have been getting closer and closer to succeeding in killing someone. There have been a couple of near misses. Not too long ago a Real IRA bomb failed luckily. By a tragic fluke if it had gone off a bus carrying four and five year olds would have been blown up. It was judged that the risk was now sufficiently big to warrant the return of some special forces. A dissident republican group tonight succeeded, being aware that some staff in this barracks on Saturday would order in pizzas. They arrived and as soldiers came out to pick up the pizzas opened fire.

The danger now is twofold. Dissident Republicans want Loyalists to respond by murdering a Catholic. They can then 'justify' a response and set off a tit-for-tat battle that would drive terrified nationalists towards violence.

Secondly, from our own perspective this will cause massive problems we don't need. "Violence in Ireland" willgive another reason, possibly the tipping reason, for some companies debating whether to pull out of Ireland another reason. (Remember Americans often cannot distinguish between North and South. Both are "Ireland" in their eyes. It will do yet more damage to the tourism industry, and if a new tit-for-tat battle begins, it will cost the Irish government millions in terms of beefing up resources again in the PDF, RDF and the Garda Síochana.

Finally the timing is crucial. This week the House of Commons was debating a bill to return responsibility for policing to Northern Ireland. Dissident republicans hope this will make Unionists back off supporting policing return, in turn leading to a row with SF and a possible collapse of the executive.

You're sounding like you're relishing the prospect. You don't know who carried this attack out and the above analysis is utter rubbish. Do you believe everything you read in the papers? ' - 'tragic fluke' You should have been working in the NIO press office in the eighties. Just stop for once and ask yourself who could have carried this out? Why would they carry this out? When is it happening? What would they have to gain? and finally have you ever been in Antrim Town?

1. I am anything but 'relishing the prospect'.

2. I am in a position to know more than is public right now.

3. I don't believe everything I read in the newspapers. I know enough about the newspapers to discount most of what is in them. I have other direct sources on issues.

4. I know the reports as to what has been happening.

5. Because they want to provoke inter-communal warfare again because they believe that in inter-communal warfare public opinion will become polarised and their support base will rocket, supplying them with activists, weaponry and money. They have been over the last seven months seeking new weaponry from Eastern Europe through links with criminal organisations with a view to luring loyalists into a new shooting war.

6. This is the sixth attempt in seven weeks to provoke a reaction. The previous ones failed but alerted the security forces north and south as to what was going on. The dissident groups are infiltrated by spies but by their nature authority for attacks is not being sought through the chain of command and so the security forces as not in a position to know the specifics of every attack. Where they have been they have stopped them.

7. I know Antrim well. I have lived there. I have relatives there and I was there two weeks ago.

You also had the inside line on the X-Factor ....excuse me if I seriously doubt your word here.
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PostSubject: Re: Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim   Sun Mar 08, 2009 10:20 am

An act of utter futility. It achieves nothing and plays into the hands of hard-line unionists in the north, south and UK. And just c. 48 hours after the "official" announcement. The dissidents had several years in which to carry out futile acts when the brit army was serverly over streched in Iraq and Afghanistan. Why choose the very moment the birts say they now have the resources to tackle them?

And just to put a stop to the revisionist nonsense that the brits had fully infiltrated the IRA. If so, why was the IRA able to operate for over 35 years in one of the most securitised pieces of real estate in the world. Did the brits have full knowledge but let the war continue? Why? Why were large swathes of Derry, Tyrone, Fermanagh and Armagh no go areas unless the brits enterted in full military formation? Anyway, I willing to bet the brits have more operatives embedded in the Dublin power structure than ever operated in the north.

At the moment I have to believe it was the dissidents who carried out the act. However, the timing and severity of the act in the wake of the security announcement begs several questions? Why now? Why was such a high level target so easily attacked just after the announcement of hightened security. Have the dissidents been able to spread disinformation via an embedded brit operative to the brit securocrats? If so, it doesn't bode well for so-called brit intelligence.

With the devolution of policing and the local elections coming up, there is only one loser - SF. The unionists can now stonewall with impunity. The securocrats can play divide and conquer. Does the brit army and securocrat structure belive they have some unfinished biz in the six counties. Is a blitz of britishisation and quelling of the natives believed to be required?

The southern Irish govt just received a whole pile of news deflection as they announce further budget cuts, and they'll do a wee bit more history revision via RTE and others no doubt.

As for the dissidents. Einsteins they ain't - long term logical thinking isn't their forte. I suppose they hope this will expose SF as wannabe brits or something. Who knows.

I couldn't help noticing that some posters are almost gleeful that these the events are taking place. I can't fathom their glee or their underlying motivations. Obviously, they don't live in the six counties and don't have ties. I suppose other people's distress is somehow viewed as an opportunity for them.
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