Machine Nation

Irish Politics Forum - Politics Technology Economics in Ireland - A Look Under The Nation's Bonnet


Devilish machinations come to naught --Milton
 
PortalPortal  HomeHome  FAQFAQ  SearchSearch  MemberlistMemberlist  UsergroupsUsergroups  RegisterRegister  Log in  GalleryGallery  MACHINENATION.org  

Share | 
 

 Army Intelligence Redeployed to the North

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
AuthorMessage
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Army Intelligence Redeployed to the North   Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:45 am

Owing to an increasing threat by dissident paramilitary groups, some members of the British Army Special Reconaissance Regiment, are to be redeployed in Northern Ireland from their current stationing in Iraq and Afghanistan. Their recall follows the decision by MI5 to upgrade its terrorist threat assessment for the region from "substantial" to "severe".

PSNI Chief Constable Sir Hugh Orde has stated that the threat from dissident groups is the highest since he took leadership of the force seven years ago and has praised the co-operation efforts of An Garda Síochána without whose working relationship he maintains numerous members of the PSNI would have already been killed.

Meanwhile, SDLP Assembly Member Dolores Kelly who sits on the Northern Ireland Policing Board has expressed concern at the development. She intends to raise the matter with the PSNI and the Irish Government. However, Ms Kelly further stated that the was no doubt that the dissident threat was of a significant level and should not be underestimated. Furthermore she maintained that it was always the position of the Northern Ireland Office that such reconaissance units would be deployed if the dissident threat increased.

It is understood that the units will at no stage be deployed to the streets but rather will be providing support and intelligence behind the scenes. The Army has also deployed additional bomb disposal units to the region in recent months.

Irish Times
RTE News
BBC News
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Army Intelligence Redeployed to the North   Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:58 am

I understand that there is an agreement in place that allows the British Intelligence Services to operate on both sides of the border.

Terror attacks have imo done nothing to advance Republicanism in Ireland. So deeply was the Republican movement inflitrated by the IS that it is impossible to imagine that they didn't collude with terror attacks. The main result of them was to drive a wedge between Republicans and their natural support amongst British working people and to deepen divisions in Ireland.

I don't welcome this development. Is it pure coincidence that it has happened when we are seeing the prospects of mass protest and unrest in the Republic ?
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Army Intelligence Redeployed to the North   Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:21 pm

These situations are difficult and there are multiple valid points of view. On the one hand it is clear that there was collusion between the security forces and paramilitary groups, on both sides. Equally there was likely an element of collusion between our own Gardaí and the IRA though not to the same extent, more likely owing to circumstance than any lack of cause.

However, that stated, Northern Ireland remains part of the United Kingdom and as such the valid forces that be are British Forces. There is a real dissident threat in the North and everyone knows that. Clearly no nationalist in the North is going to support the deployment of a British Army Intelligence Unit but at the same time the threat of dissidents does have to be monitored and avoided. There is no other way of achieving that.

On your final point, I would contend that yes it is pure coincidence. Beyond strike action, do you have any evidence for impending unrest in the Republic?

Maybe they're building up forces to fight off a rush to their hospitals to avail of the NHS Razz.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Army Intelligence Redeployed to the North   Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:50 pm

I live on/along the so-called border. Can anyone, other than british "intelligence", point to anything, I mean anything at all, that has occured or been remoured to have been attempted by disidents that justifies this move? There is nada bar the police trying to set up some border posts again.

Now, what are the chances that "incidents" occur from now until some unspecified time in the future?

I know some people who are called dissidents. Most that I've spoken with seem resigned to the fact that their political base is tiny and that any violence or armed action would be tokenism at its most extreme. This doesn't mean that some young hot-heads might attempt something stupid, imo, but most of the older people know the futility of any violence at this stage. Most who would have only too willing to take action during the 1970's don't want their children to become involved in futile exercises which may ruin their lives. Republicans, of all hues, contrary to reports, aren't all hyped up for insurrection on a moment's ntoice.

I find the "mainland" Rolling Eyes to be an extremely interesting place since they've, by and large, learned to leave us alone. They don't have snow there. They have possible blizzards. They don't have rain. They have floods. Everything is portrayed as an emergency. If its not al-queada or some mad mullah, they seem to need to have some overhanging threat with which they have to deal and alert the public. From afar, they appear to need a threat with which to the alarm the public at every opportunity.

(NB if anyone thinks there was some token solidarity between the poor workers of the six counties and the "mainland" then you obviously didn't have much contact with UK workers during the 70's. There was none. Nationalism was just a rife in the UK as it was in the six counties.)
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Army Intelligence Redeployed to the North   Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:54 pm

johnfás wrote:
These situations are difficult and there are multiple valid points of view. On the one hand it is clear that there was collusion between the security forces and paramilitary groups, on both sides. Equally there was likely an element of collusion between our own Gardaí and the IRA though not to the same extent, more likely owing to circumstance than any lack of cause.

However, that stated, Northern Ireland remains part of the United Kingdom and as such the valid forces that be are British Forces. There is a real dissident threat in the North and everyone knows that. Clearly no nationalist in the North is going to support the deployment of a British Army Intelligence Unit but at the same time the threat of dissidents does have to be monitored and avoided. There is no other way of achieving that.

On your final point, I would contend that yes it is pure coincidence. Beyond strike action, do you have any evidence for impending unrest in the Republic?

Maybe they're building up forces to fight off a rush to their hospitals to avail of the NHS Razz.

Or shoppers heading to Newry?

It may or not happen, but possible default is widely discussed by international economic commentators. As well as strike action, we have had occupations and large street demonstrations. These people monitor and predict, it is part of their role. I hadn't thought about the possibility of masses of people moving to the north if things collapsed here, but now you mention it I am sure the British Government would have considered that possibility.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Army Intelligence Redeployed to the North   Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:57 pm

rockyracoon wrote:
Can anyone, other than british "intelligence", point to anything, I mean anything at all, that has occured or been remoured to have been attempted by disidents that justifies this move?

How about a 300lb bomb left abandoned in a car within metres of a Primary School in Castlewellan last month? It being of a similar size to the bomb at Omagh.


Last edited by johnfás on Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:06 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Army Intelligence Redeployed to the North   Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:00 pm

cactus flower wrote:
I hadn't thought about the possibility of masses of people moving to the north if things collapsed here, but now you mention it I am sure the British Government would have considered that possibility.

There are underground trainlines which whizz senior people out of London to secret bunkers in case of national emergency... so I'm sure they have considered most things.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Army Intelligence Redeployed to the North   Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:03 pm

rockyracoon wrote:
I live on/along the so-called border. Can anyone, other than british "intelligence", point to anything, I mean anything at all, that has occured or been remoured to have been attempted by disidents that justifies this move? There is nada bar the police trying to set up some border posts again.

Now, what are the chances that "incidents" occur from now until some unspecified time in the future?

I know some people who are called dissidents. Most that I've spoken with seem resigned to the fact that their political base is tiny and that any violence or armed action would be tokenism at its most extreme. This doesn't mean that some young hot-heads might attempt something stupid, imo, but most of the older people know the futility of any violence at this stage. Most who would have only too willing to take action during the 1970's don't want their children to become involved in futile exercises which may ruin their lives. Republicans, of all hues, contrary to reports, aren't all hyped up for insurrection on a moment's ntoice.

I find the "mainland" Rolling Eyes to be an extremely interesting place since they've, by and large, learned to leave us alone. They don't have snow there. They have possible blizzards. They don't have rain. They have floods. Everything is portrayed as an emergency. If its not al-queada or some mad mullah, they seem to need to have some overhanging threat with which they have to deal and alert the public. From afar, they appear to need a threat with which to the alarm the public at every opportunity.

(NB if anyone thinks there was some token solidarity between the poor workers of the six counties and the "mainland" then you obviously didn't have much contact with UK workers during the 70's. There was none. Nationalism was just a rife in the UK as it was in the six counties.)

I'm listening and learning, rockyracoon and am glad that you think that kind of token action is seen as futile. I don't know anything about this other than press and posts. On the UK, I do know it, and I think you are right about the need of Government to have an external threat to get people worried about. On workers in the UK, I spent part of my childhood/teens there, and remember well that the again Brighton bombings (which personally I think was another futile, divisive and token action) was greeted widely by workers as a pity, because it didn't suceed. There was a good level of sympathy - even to a majority in favour of Britain leaving Ireland - at different stages, and it was bombings, particularly on the mainland, that destroyed that.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Army Intelligence Redeployed to the North   Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:25 pm

Can't agree with you Catcus. My experiences and outlook differ. I spent long periods in England during the 70's, 80's and even some time in the 90's. While there might have been some tokenism directed towards Irish unity from certain Labour quarters, I think Blair's declaration that he was a Unionist sums up the real attitude towards a majority in the Labour movement. Mowlan was probably as close as you'd get to a British politician who'd have let Ireland go if the conditions were acceptable to a majority of local Unionist politicians. Scrap away at the veneer of most in the Labour movement and I found them to be fairly nationalistic in the tone and not one bit amused if a stipe in the UJ was removed. Different people have different perceptions.

(BTB, I didn't personally state that dissident actions are futile but said that some Republicans, who are now classified as dissidents, had acknowledged the futility of token jestures. My own opinions and outlook has veered away from one type of struggle to another. However, I'm not so blase about historical precendents to believe things won't deteriorate. Despite the outward appearance of normality in the north, there are worrying signs. These worrying signs are being exhibited by the british establishment and a belief among many local, ordinary people that the brits somehow believe they quelled and appeased the natives. We need only now try and behave like good brits and all will be well. (I hope they hold their collective breath until that it achieved.) Their tone and actions are becoming increasing evident. Edit(In no way is the average punter too put out by the tone. It's just that the brits never seem able to leave well enough alone.)

Having lived during the "troubles" and having first hand experience with the so-called security forces, even when one was going about one's own business, I don't have any illusion left about what their agenda is. While there are some in the South who seem enamoured with the might of the British and some notion of empire and the good chaps-bad chaps scenario, I just know their security forces as people ready to kill at a moments notice and often on the slightest of pretexts. I believe the fella who ran the brit army in the north is on record as saying he was bringing the same methodology and mindset in dealing with the Iraqis and Afghanis.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Army Intelligence Redeployed to the North   Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:57 pm

Quote :
I believe the fella who ran the brit army in the north is on record as saying he was bringing the same methodology and mindset in dealing with the Iraqis and Afghanis.

Indeed - and did they not export their main Psyops people to Bagdad to transfer those lessons to the occupation there?

I won't argue with you about the British Labour Movement leadership. They are and were fat cats who know where their bread is buttered from and who have benefited in their living standards from Britain's colonial-generated wealth. Plenty of flag waving there. I'm talking about people who never got that slice of the action, or who lost it with the dismantling of industry and coal production under Thatcher. There is a recent book out on the Miners Strike (I'll get a reference later) that suggests that this was partly a deliberate strategy to weaken the organised working class, and that this influenced the shift to the service sector.
Haven't read it yet, so I reserve judgement. Thatcher never got more that 33% of the vote in the UK and was hated widely.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Army Intelligence Redeployed to the North   Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:01 pm

Johnfas - at the moment the rush is in the other direction. That could change very quickly.

Quote :
06/03/2009 - 10:51:08
The Government has announced plans to mount a crackdown on cross-border social welfare abuse.

Social and Family Affairs Minister Mary Hanafin says those who try to rip off the Irish taxpayer will be stopped and dealt with.

She says we cannot allow our system to be abused when people right across the country, who have paid social insurance, are now losing their jobs and seeing their incomes drop.

Hanafin said that more checkpoints will be put in place in border counties and more rigorous checks will be carried out on applicants, including unannounced home visits to claimants.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Army Intelligence Redeployed to the North   Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:37 pm

Would be interesting to see to whom she is actually referring, hopefully the story will be flushed out a bit later in the day. I would hazard a guess she is referring to people who are neither Irish nor Northern Ireland resident (British or Irish) citizens.

I don't see any problem with making home visits to people who are claiming social welfare, we do the same with lots of things. The man doesn't make an appointment to come and read your electricity meter nor does the tv licence inspector. Of course they have no right to enter your dwelling unless they have a warrant to do so but I would imagine most people who are claiming welfare legitimately would have no problem answering a simple question at the door. I would also imagine those legitimately in receipt of social welfare payments would equally be against those who are abusing the system as it puts the level of support which they receive at risk.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Army Intelligence Redeployed to the North   Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:39 pm

I'd say this is sweet fa to do with 'dissident' threats and all to do with budgetry concerns. "Now,now you can't be depriving us of those military intelligence( great oxymoron) officers they're all needed to defeat these hyper severe threats from dastardly republicans."

And if I know the Brits , if they can't get those republicans to behave pavlovian then they're well capable of creating a crisis themselves. Oh but how can you be so cynical about our now good friends Seathrún? Because they keep repeating the same m.o. time and time again.

"Look here, Minister, politicians come and go but we have to maintain the security of the state".....while simultaneously being one of the biggest threats to peace.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Army Intelligence Redeployed to the North   Fri Mar 06, 2009 9:07 pm

Sir Hugh Orde says these troops are "back office" specialists and they are "not out there in uniforms".

Sinn Fein says this is "stupid and dangerous" (RTE Radio 1 18:07)
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Army Intelligence Redeployed to the North   Fri Mar 06, 2009 9:15 pm

It is potentially dangerous, particularly the manner in which policing policy is being publicised and politicised... as it always is. However, do Sinn Féin have any better ideas as to how an eye can be kept on dissident activity? It is easy to snipe from the sidelines to satisfy a party's political base until a bomb actually goes off.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Army Intelligence Redeployed to the North   Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:37 am

cactus flower wrote:
Johnfas - at the moment the rush is in the other direction. That could change very quickly.

Quote :
06/03/2009 - 10:51:08
The Government has announced plans to mount a crackdown on cross-border social welfare abuse.

Social and Family Affairs Minister Mary Hanafin says those who try to rip off the Irish taxpayer will be stopped and dealt with.

She says we cannot allow our system to be abused when people right across the country, who have paid social insurance, are now losing their jobs and seeing their incomes drop.

Hanafin said that more checkpoints will be put in place in border counties and more rigorous checks will be carried out on applicants, including unannounced home visits to claimants.

Bodes ill for the new mini-budget mark III. The govt but can't help themselves with spin. They always need a deflection from the reality of their actions and past policies. I suppose there is some validity in foreign worker abuse of the system across the divide, but I also thinks there's a bit of the: "we all know that a certain section of dem northerners are a foxy bunch who'd pinch the glint from yer eye" mentality being communicated. The economic problems, per FF, are really de public sector workers, de global aconomy, de bankers, de welfare recipients and now dem nordern bastards.

I got a wee chuckle from the notion that hoards of southies might move north. While there has been an influx of students from the south, I'd love to see the reaction if a bunch of southies piled into, say, Ballamena on a long term basis.

SF's position on policing has been clear but deflected, imo, by their involvement on the policing boards. SF has long been against the manner in which policing is structured and handled. They want to to move away from the evolution begun in the 17th century where militias were established to protect land rights and land owners. This system has evolved, broadly speaking, into the notion that the police are seperate and apart from society, and where policing is still primarily focused on property rights. Policing should be seen as a social structure whereby police are an extension of the community they police. Policing, along with adminstration of justice, should not adopt a top down approach. People who see themselves as actors in their community along with those they choose to perform policing duties don't take kindly to people who wish to destroy the fabric of society, whether it be physical or psychological. All too often the police are expected to solve specific problems (say a bad neighbor situation) in isolation. The community of neighbors thank their lucky stars its someone else's problem and expect the police to perform miracles. Its not fair on lone individuals or familiies, on the police, or is it not likely to alter the increasing amount of anti-social behavior we seem to be experiencing.

As for the brits latest gimmicks (who seem to be supported by the present southern govt), give us a break. It boggles the mind that the brits just can never leave well enough alone, and very few are sleeping better because the brits are announcing an new offensive.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Army Intelligence Redeployed to the North   Sat Mar 07, 2009 1:55 am

That's very interesting on policing rockyracoon. There is a little bit of that here, with police who take kids swimming and knock neighbours heads together. It would be a better world that had that kind of policing.


Quote :
I got a wee chuckle from the notion that hoards of southies might move north. While there has been an influx of students from the south, I'd love to see the reaction if a bunch of southies piled into, say, Ballamena on a long term basis.
Glad to have provided the wee chuckle. Smile
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Army Intelligence Redeployed to the North   Sun Mar 08, 2009 2:30 am

Well they seemed to have been deployed pretty sharpish

I wonder, I wonder, I wonder
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Army Intelligence Redeployed to the North   Sun Mar 08, 2009 2:38 am

SeathrúnCeitinn wrote:
Well they seemed to have been deployed pretty sharpish

I wonder, I wonder, I wonder

Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Army Intelligence Redeployed to the North   Sun Mar 08, 2009 3:24 am

I posted on the other thread there Audi.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Army Intelligence Redeployed to the North   Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:44 am

.
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Army Intelligence Redeployed to the North   

Back to top Go down
 
Army Intelligence Redeployed to the North
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» North Korean army 'split' over Kim Jong-un
» 40 Army Support Regiment RE
» Dad was at Bad Salzuflen at Xmas 1945
» German Army Ski Training
» North Dakota 3D map

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Machine Nation  :: Politics and Current News :: Local and Regional-
Jump to: