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 On the Greens and Corruption

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PostSubject: On the Greens and Corruption   Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:49 am

Quality post by Dee Four on a thread from 20th March called 'do you guys still support FF ?'
http://www.politics.ie/viewtopic.php?p=1076782#1076782

The constant green baiting was very tiresome and it was good to see a non-Green talking realpolitik about this.

Quote :
Dee Four wrote:
Quote :
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The Greens do not support corruption. We have very strong rules and procedures for dealing with it internally. We hope to lead by good example. Other parties and their voters (hopefully) can deal with their own people when they transgress.
We still have plenty to say about corruption.

Many people in politics have allegations of corruption laid against them.

If there are any allegations of corruption against Green Party representatives, then let's hear them.

The Green Party have always been vociferous in their opposition to it and scathing of other parties and members when it was alleged and the minor cases it is proven. This has never been an internal thing for the Greens until they signed themselves into govt with FF to be fair.
Yeah, the Greens have obviously changed their position, but was that change for the better? Should it be left to junior coalition parties to maintain standards in such a way? The Irish people voted for a Fianna Fáil-led government. The Greens had stated they would prefer to change the government, but when this became a non-runner, were they not mandated to enter into negotiations with FF?

From a longer-term perspective, surely it is better to rely on ethics standards and tribunals, rather than 'watchdog' coalition partners. What if FF were in an overall majority? Who could then wield the axe?

Do members of the Green Party support FF? No, they support the Green party. They support Green party policies and politicans.

THis sums things up for me pretty much. We never 'supported' FF, we just mandated our political party to support the government that was on offer, that's a very different thing. There was going to be FF government either way, I voted as a member to try to limit the damage a bit. I never voted for FF, and probably never will. I still think our parties have next to nothing in common and that we usually speak a different political language. But I still think that FF-GP-PD is infinitly better than FF-PD-Ind. Those of you who don't support the Green party and don't care about our issues are never going to think so - changes in waste processing, environmental protection, energy policy and CO2 emissions are just never going to excite you as much.

All the stuff coming out of the Tribunals is bad, but surely it proves that the Tribunal is doing as it is meant to do and is working (allbeit too slowly).

Lastly, there are plenty on here criticising us for our hipocrisy and self righteousness, but it is precisely some of these users who are hitting new heights of righteousness (allbeit tinged with liberal amounts of cynicism) since the government was formed. Opposition is easy, as we've learnt ourselves lately. Try think ahead and calm the rhetoric down a notch.
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PostSubject: Re: On the Greens and Corruption   Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:41 am

The Greens still need to be very careful, both in terms of who they keep company with, and their own internal ethics. I posted a couple of times in relation to behaviour by a local Green candidate I found verging on the bizarre, - the candidate was using the election canvass to sell a "green" product. Mary White, who I had always respected, then popped up on Q and A doing a little promo for her book selling business.

I don't think environmental politicians are immune from the pressures and temptations of political life, and a rapidly growing young party can draw in all kinds of people. Now the Greens are in government the pressures and temptations will become much greater. They will need to stay on the ball and have very clear and firm ethical codes for their elected representatives if they want to stay on the high ground.

I sincerely wish them good luck.
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PostSubject: Re: On the Greens and Corruption   Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:32 am

What machine nation reminds me of more than anything else is a group of kids creating a new language, a creole. History has robbed them of a basic human right, perhaps because they are escaped slaves.

Read

http://academictenure.blogspot.com/2009/01/outrageous-hypocrisy-of-green-party.html

and weep


cactus flower wrote:
The Greens still need to be very careful, both in terms of who they keep company with, and their own internal ethics. I posted a couple of times in relation to behaviour by a local Green candidate I found verging on the bizarre, - the candidate was using the election canvass to sell a "green" product. Mary White, who I had always respected, then popped up on Q and A doing a little promo for her book selling business.

I don't think environmental politicians are immune from the pressures and temptations of political life, and a rapidly growing young party can draw in all kinds of people. Now the Greens are in government the pressures and temptations will become much greater. They will need to stay on the ball and have very clear and firm ethical codes for their elected representatives if they want to stay on the high ground.

I sincerely wish them good luck.
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PostSubject: Re: On the Greens and Corruption   Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:20 pm

erigena wrote:
http://academictenure.blogspot.com/2009/01/outrageous-hypocrisy-of-green-party.html
I weep that an academic would start an article with childish name calling. I didn't see any point in reading past the first line.
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PostSubject: Re: On the Greens and Corruption   Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:13 pm

eoinmn wrote:
erigena wrote:
http://academictenure.blogspot.com/2009/01/outrageous-hypocrisy-of-green-party.html
I weep that an academic would start an article with childish name calling. I didn't see any point in reading past the first line.
You get nutters everywhere, although I've always wondered why so many anarchists are teachers of one form or another, do they have too much time on their hands or what is it?
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PostSubject: Re: On the Greens and Corruption   Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:35 pm

tonys wrote:
eoinmn wrote:
erigena wrote:
http://academictenure.blogspot.com/2009/01/outrageous-hypocrisy-of-green-party.html
I weep that an academic would start an article with childish name calling. I didn't see any point in reading past the first line.
You get nutters everywhere, although I've always wondered why so many anarchists are teachers of one form or another, do they have too much time on their hands or what is it?

Exactly tonys - members of the Anarchist Party are all the same kind of sticklers they must have some media machine to put out the same message between the lot of them.
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PostSubject: Re: On the Greens and Corruption   Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:39 pm

Auditor #9 wrote:
tonys wrote:
eoinmn wrote:
erigena wrote:
http://academictenure.blogspot.com/2009/01/outrageous-hypocrisy-of-green-party.html
I weep that an academic would start an article with childish name calling. I didn't see any point in reading past the first line.
You get nutters everywhere, although I've always wondered why so many anarchists are teachers of one form or another, do they have too much time on their hands or what is it?

Exactly tonys - members of the Anarchist Party are all the same kind of sticklers they must have some media machine to put out the same message between the lot of them.
Jays, if I knew what you meant, I'd say that was a very good reply.
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PostSubject: Re: On the Greens and Corruption   Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:59 am

tonys wrote:
eoinmn wrote:
erigena wrote:
http://academictenure.blogspot.com/2009/01/outrageous-hypocrisy-of-green-party.html
I weep that an academic would start an article with childish name calling. I didn't see any point in reading past the first line.
You get nutters everywhere, although I've always wondered why so many anarchists are teachers of one form or another, do they have too much time on their hands or what is it?

always helps to read something if you intend to launch a critique; this surely is a lesson we might have learned some time ago in Ireland.


Can I respectfully suggest you find out what the Greens are actually (not) doing on education wrt their own Dail questions?
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PostSubject: Re: On the Greens and Corruption   Thu Mar 12, 2009 2:26 pm

Quote :
http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/politics/gogarty-criticised-at-oireachtas-committee-meeting-1670503.html

Is there a good explanation for why Gogarty would resign as Green spokesperson on Education but retain the Chair of the Oireachtas Education Committee? An explanation that doesn't include €20,000?
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PostSubject: Re: On the Greens and Corruption   Thu Mar 12, 2009 2:27 pm

Yes.
He resigned over an internal party matter.
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PostSubject: Re: On the Greens and Corruption   Thu Mar 12, 2009 2:30 pm

It does seem a little odd that the continuing chairman of a committee on education has resigned his position as spokesman on education. The chair of the committee should either be passed to his replacement spokesperson within the Greens or to the spokesman of another party within the Oireachtas. That said, that isn't how politics works because no doubt the chairing of certain committees was part of the deal struck between FF and the Greens when they went into Government.
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PostSubject: Re: On the Greens and Corruption   Thu Mar 12, 2009 2:35 pm

johnfás wrote:
It does seem a little odd that the continuing chairman of a committee on education has resigned his position as spokesman on education. The chair of the committee should either be passed to his replacement spokesperson within the Greens
Perhaps it should and perhaps it will. I'm not sure there is a new Education Spokesman yet.

A motion was passed at Convention to put in place an educational committee. Gogarty, wrongly in my view, took this as a slight against his handling of the education spokesman portfolio. So he resigned from that internal role.

For what its worth, I think he's handled the passing of this motion badly, and handled the failure of his own motion on education badly. But I see it as an internal matter. I'm surprised its getting so much attention in the media.
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PostSubject: Re: On the Greens and Corruption   Thu Mar 12, 2009 2:40 pm

Its to do with the money. No mercy will be shown on anyone who takes a penny more than they need.

It seems that most TDs are just about to get another increase of €3,000 per annum. They would do well to turn it down.
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PostSubject: Re: On the Greens and Corruption   Thu Mar 12, 2009 2:46 pm

cactus flower wrote:
Its to do with the money.
Firstly, I think it honestly never crossed his mind last weekend that he should resign from his leadership of the Dail committee. He was focussed on an internal party matter.
Now that it has been raised in the media, he's probably just holding on to it for
a) He still feels the matter is an internal party one
b) the money (as you say).
c) the input it gives him into education policy.
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PostSubject: Re: On the Greens and Corruption   Thu Mar 12, 2009 2:52 pm

A whole mindset is going to have to change. Its not just a Green matter by any means. There will be unholy uproar in the country if the budget comes out without sizeable and significant real cuts in what politicians are paying themselves.

The way it looks at the moment is that the main result of the Tribunals is that instead of taking it under the table they are paying it out to themselves above the board.
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PostSubject: Re: On the Greens and Corruption   Thu Mar 12, 2009 2:56 pm

cactus flower wrote:
Its not just a Green matter by any means.
Gogarty resigned as GP spokesman for education over a motion passed at convention. How is this an external matter.

The issue of politicians pay is quite separate from the issue of Gogarty's hissy fit. For instance, if he were to resign the €20k position, no money would be saved, as someone else would take the position.
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PostSubject: Re: On the Greens and Corruption   Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:00 pm

cactus flower wrote:
There will be unholy uproar in the country if the budget comes out without sizeable and significant real cuts in what politicians are paying themselves.
True.
Although politican's will get no thanks for it.
The Green ministers refused a 6% pay rise last year. All ministers took a 10% cut on their ministerial salary in Budget 1 2009 and all TDs pay the pension levy at the highest rate. Nobody seems to remember this.

I'm not trying to defend them. I'd like to see them all take greater paycuts in the order of 50%, but there is little point doing it if the media is going to ignore it.
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PostSubject: Re: On the Greens and Corruption   Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:16 pm

cactus flower wrote:
Its to do with the money. No mercy will be shown on anyone who takes a penny more than they need.

It seems that most TDs are just about to get another increase of €3,000 per annum. They would do well to turn it down.
It's 26 out of the 166 TD's, not most TD's. It's an incremental payment for time served, just like they get in most if not all public service jobs (quantity not quality, payments), you don't see the media jumping up & down about that very often.

Anyway as far as I understand all serviced based increments in the public service have been put on the back burner for the next two years or so, I would hope this payment is covered by that same ban.
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PostSubject: Re: On the Greens and Corruption   Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:57 pm

Quote :
I would hope this payment is covered by that same ban.

So nice to be able to agree with you tonys Smile
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