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 The Irish Banking Bother: /Anglo 10 /Gardaí raid Anglo offices/ AIB '08 results 2nd March

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PostSubject: Re: The Irish Banking Bother: /Anglo 10 /Gardaí raid Anglo offices/ AIB '08 results 2nd March   Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:43 pm

Auditor #9 wrote:
tonys wrote:
Auditor #9 wrote:
Your own posts are quite balanced on it, Zhou and I think you've made an excellent point earlier on that Cowen is as likely to not know these people as he is his own family so what FF need to do now is diffuse this somehow.

Why Cowen said he didn't know these people in the first place is staggering and possibly slipped off his tongue at the time.


He Didn't say he "didn't know these people", he said he doesn't know who "they" are.

What's the difference ? Time to go to the Dáil transcripts....

Irish Times:

Quote :
Mr Cowen said today: “I want to make it very clear I don’t know the names of any of the people involved in this process, nor is it my function

“In relation to this matter, as Minister for Finance… it was clear it was a meeting perhaps in March when the Governor would indicate to me that there was a situation developing in relation to the contracts for difference issue in Anglo Irish Bank,” Mr Cowen added.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0217/breaking69.htm


1) I did not know the investors - means whoever the investors are I do not know them.

2) I did not know who the investors were - means I may know the investors but I did not know that they were investors.
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PostSubject: Re: The Irish Banking Bother: /Anglo 10 /Gardaí raid Anglo offices/ AIB '08 results 2nd March   Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:51 pm

Zhou

Maybe they are bitter because they aren't being listened to? How many of them have said 'rushed legisltion is bad legislation' ? Do you honestly think that Fianna Fáil wouldn't milk this if they were in Kenny's seat ?

Just the other day I was watching the Dáil and Kenny wanted the Bank Recapitalisation debating times changed because he said it wasn't a small amount that was at stake. John O'Donoghue started to crib about it and Kenny reminded him that when he was in Opposition he made a mighty hullabaloo about a much smaller amount. O'Donoghue had no words after that.

Of course we can't make legislation to hunt individuals but we could have listened to the Opposition and raked around in the books a bit more before we rushed in the legislation we rushed in. We and they were in fact told there was a healthy balance sheet in Anglo as it was getting Nationalised and now it turns out that there is this carry one which the Regulator knew about ....

Honestly - are you telling us we should trust the Government on what else is in the books ???


johnfás -

thanks for that. What do you interpret that he said. Time for the Dáil transcripts ?
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PostSubject: Re: The Irish Banking Bother: /Anglo 10 /Gardaí raid Anglo offices/ AIB '08 results 2nd March   Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:57 pm

I got the impression that he was saying that he may know the people but that he doesn't know that they are investors... if you get me.

But surely that is the default position if you don't know who the investors are, it is an agnostic position. If you ask me do I know who killed X, the answer is that I do not know who killed X. However, I may know Y, who it subsequently transpired did kill X. That does not mean that prior to my gaining of that knowledge that I knew Y killed X.
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PostSubject: Re: The Irish Banking Bother: /Anglo 10 /Gardaí raid Anglo offices/ AIB '08 results 2nd March   Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:01 pm

I don't agree with outing them if there is any risk at all that is will compromise due process.
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PostSubject: Re: The Irish Banking Bother: /Anglo 10 /Gardaí raid Anglo offices/ AIB '08 results 2nd March   Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:03 pm



Last edited by Auditor #9 on Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:20 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: The Irish Banking Bother: /Anglo 10 /Gardaí raid Anglo offices/ AIB '08 results 2nd March   Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:04 pm

George Lee at lunchtime making the point that by the time of the Bank Guarantee a total of 8 billion had been put into giving a false impression of the worth and viability of Anglo Irish Bank.

Has anyone considered the possibility that some of the ten might have been under a certain amount of duress - say if they were developers and were indebted to Anglo Irish and struggling to repay loans?
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PostSubject: Re: The Irish Banking Bother: /Anglo 10 /Gardaí raid Anglo offices/ AIB '08 results 2nd March   Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:04 pm

I would imagine alot of senior politicians will know the Golden Circle because they are very wealthy people and very wealthy people tend to have come across politicians.

I imagine the answer from the politicians at the end of this will be "I do know Mr X but I did not know that Mr X was an investor".

Beyond which, there is no evidence, thus far, that these people did anything wrong. On general terms it is more likely that the bank did wrong and not the investors.


Last edited by johnfás on Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: The Irish Banking Bother: /Anglo 10 /Gardaí raid Anglo offices/ AIB '08 results 2nd March   Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:05 pm

Who screwed up the page? It is spread across 4 counties. A#9, do you want to come clean?
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PostSubject: Re: The Irish Banking Bother: /Anglo 10 /Gardaí raid Anglo offices/ AIB '08 results 2nd March   Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:11 pm

cactus flower wrote:
George Lee at lunchtime making the point that by the time of the Bank Guarantee a total of 8 billion had been put into giving a false impression of the worth and viability of Anglo Irish Bank.

Has anyone considered the possibility that some of the ten might have been under a certain amount of duress - say if they were developers and were indebted to Anglo Irish and struggling to repay loans?

Yeah, I was/am of the impression that the did not necessarily want to take part in this, but that they were told by the bank that due to loans/deals/projects on the banks books the projects were in jeopardy. Someone said this on the radio last week. Strange word that - jeopardy.
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PostSubject: Re: The Irish Banking Bother: /Anglo 10 /Gardaí raid Anglo offices/ AIB '08 results 2nd March   Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:11 pm

Zhou_Enlai wrote:
Who screwed up the page? It is spread across 4 counties. A#9, do you want to come clean?

If that's still the same then I'll get rid of that image above and just copy and paste the text.

There's more coming - the best bits are yet to come ....
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PostSubject: Re: The Irish Banking Bother: /Anglo 10 /Gardaí raid Anglo offices/ AIB '08 results 2nd March   Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:28 pm

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
George Lee at lunchtime making the point that by the time of the Bank Guarantee a total of 8 billion had been put into giving a false impression of the worth and viability of Anglo Irish Bank.

Has anyone considered the possibility that some of the ten might have been under a certain amount of duress - say if they were developers and were indebted to Anglo Irish and struggling to repay loans?

Yeah, I was/am of the impression that the did not necessarily want to take part in this, but that they were told by the bank that due to loans/deals/projects on the banks books the projects were in jeopardy. Someone said this on the radio last week. Strange word that - jeopardy.

Jaysus - I was just guessing. The poor bolloxes. The banks pushed crazy loans on them, (if that was the case) and then when the market crashed and they couldn't repay, they were told - "there is a little something that you can do that can enable us to roll over your loan - and perhaps get some tax relief in the process".....And now they are sweating, waiting for the lynch mobs to arrive at the front doors of their McMansions affraid
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PostSubject: Re: The Irish Banking Bother: /Anglo 10 /Gardaí raid Anglo offices/ AIB '08 results 2nd March   Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:58 pm

The Dáil last week on the 12th when the leaders were discussing the time arrangements that the Tánaiste had just proposed for the debate on the Recapitalisation

http://web.oirarcone.heanet.ie/asx.aspx?Channel=Dail&Date=20090212&Start=00:23:49.000&Duration=00:00:00.000

Kenny joking around chummily with John O'Donoghue as he starts to sink his teeth in about the Anglo/ILP knowledge the Government might have had.
http://web.oirarcone.heanet.ie/asx.aspx?Channel=Dail&Date=20090212&Start=00:45:49.000&Duration=00:00:00.000
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PostSubject: Re: The Irish Banking Bother: /Anglo 10 /Gardaí raid Anglo offices/ AIB '08 results 2nd March   Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:35 pm

Zhou_Enlai wrote:
I think Ahern nailed Kenny on Morning Ireland but that he didn't make it clear enough. Enda Kenny knows that Cowen has come in contact with at least some of the wealthy businessmen. Kenny is trying to make political capital out of this by hyping it up as something it isn't.
But we don't know it isn't, do we? At this point nothing would surprise me. I don't think Ahern did that well at all. He trotted out the old we can't name anyone in case it prejudices a future case line. What a crock of shite that is - you'd swear nobody had ever heard of Catherine Nevin or Joe O'Reilly until after they were convicted.*

Zhou_Enlai wrote:
Meanwhile, to the rest of the world, it makes it looks like Kenny is alleging that our government has been involved in a corrupt conspiracy. Kenny is single-handedly aggravating the economic and reputational damage caused by the scandals in financial institutions. Kenny is seeking to impute the Government in crooked dealings. ...
I don't see how you can be certain he is not right. If the Government are involved in some sort of cover up, should Kenny stay quiet about it? To keep up appearances?!

Zhou_Enlai wrote:
None of the cabinet know the identity of the investors.
How can we be sure? I for one find it it impossible to believe the Cabinet don't know who they are. FFS, all Brian has to do is ask Fintan Drury and I'm sure he'd be able to fill him in. If I was in cabinet it would be top of my 'To Do' list so that I could start distancing myself from them as much as possible. I reckon every journo in the country knows who they are but they don't have the stones to publish. For the life of me I don't know why. There's no law against buying shares, so where's the harm in announcing that 10 people bought shares? I'm not suggesting anyone names 10 people and pronounce them all as guilty of anything, though I'm sure if they have enough pull at the highest level bigmouth Harney will be along to do just that. ;-)

Zhou_Enlai wrote:
I think Kenny will be rightly slated over this. He has already started his back-tracking saying he has no evidence to connect FF to the investors.
If there's no beef then I'd be inclined to agree with you - it won't reflect well on FG, but we don't know yet, do we?

*Interestingly both were convicted on fairly flimsy grounds as far as I can see.
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PostSubject: Re: The Irish Banking Bother: /Anglo 10 /Gardaí raid Anglo offices/ AIB '08 results 2nd March   Sat Feb 21, 2009 12:38 am

The start of Leaders questions last Tuesday. Kenny begins with indignation that despite 7bn recap the shareprice of the banks is still tanking and the general upshot of that climate is lack of international investor confidence in a system the government is desperately seeking to save ...

He quizzes Cowen on the 10 investors a few minutes later ...

http://web.oirarcone.heanet.ie/asx.aspx?Channel=Dail&Date=20090217&Start=01:51:01.000&Duration=00:00:00.000

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PostSubject: Re: The Irish Banking Bother: /Anglo 10 /Gardaí raid Anglo offices/ AIB '08 results 2nd March   Sat Feb 21, 2009 2:50 am

Businessman Ulick McEvaddy has described the so-called golden circle of 10 investors in Anglo Irish Bank as “heroes” who were supporting an economy that is “at war”.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0220/breaking43.htm
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PostSubject: Re: The Irish Banking Bother: /Anglo 10 /Gardaí raid Anglo offices/ AIB '08 results 2nd March   Sat Feb 21, 2009 2:52 am

evercloserunion wrote:
Businessman Ulick McEvaddy has described the so-called golden circle of 10 investors in Anglo Irish Bank as “heroes” who were supporting an economy that is “at war”.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0220/breaking43.htm

Did you listen to this yet evercloserunion? The interview was amazing and the public reaction a pleasure to hear.

We have it on a couple of threads now. It probably deserves a thread for itself.
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PostSubject: Re: The Irish Banking Bother: /Anglo 10 /Gardaí raid Anglo offices/ AIB '08 results 2nd March   Sat Feb 21, 2009 2:57 am

I haven't heard the interview, I just saw it on the Irish Election blog. Is there anywhere I can hear the interview cactus? I'm only really getting into the whole AI scandal now TBH. I suppose give anything a flashy name like the "Anglo 10" and it immediately becomes intriguing.
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PostSubject: Re: The Irish Banking Bother: /Anglo 10 /Gardaí raid Anglo offices/ AIB '08 results 2nd March   Sat Feb 21, 2009 3:00 am

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PostSubject: Re: The Irish Banking Bother: /Anglo 10 /Gardaí raid Anglo offices/ AIB '08 results 2nd March   Sat Feb 21, 2009 3:07 am

coc wrote:
Quote :
I think Ahern nailed Kenny on Morning Ireland but that he didn't make it clear enough. Enda Kenny knows that Cowen has come in contact with at least some of the wealthy businessmen. Kenny is trying to make political capital out of this by hyping it up as something it isn't.
But we don't know it isn't, do we? At this point nothing would surprise me. I don't think Ahern did that well at all. He trotted out the old we can't name anyone in case it prejudices a future case line. What a crock of shite that is - you'd swear nobody had ever heard of Catherine Nevin or Joe O'Reilly until after they were convicted.*

The media didn't name them until either was charged with an offence. There have been no charges here and there has not even been a suggestion, so far as I have seen, of any wrongdoing on the part of these investors. People are entitled to due process of law and it is something that everyone here might someday enjoy the right to possess. The Director of Corporate Enforcement has the power to investigate these matters and if there has been wrongdoing charges will be brought and the issue will have an airing publicly.

There is absolutely nothing to be gained from usurping the legal process.
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PostSubject: Re: The Irish Banking Bother: /Anglo 10 /Gardaí raid Anglo offices/ AIB '08 results 2nd March   Sat Feb 21, 2009 3:18 am

johnfás wrote:
coc wrote:
Quote :
I think Ahern nailed Kenny on Morning Ireland but that he didn't make it clear enough. Enda Kenny knows that Cowen has come in contact with at least some of the wealthy businessmen. Kenny is trying to make political capital out of this by hyping it up as something it isn't.
But we don't know it isn't, do we? At this point nothing would surprise me. I don't think Ahern did that well at all. He trotted out the old we can't name anyone in case it prejudices a future case line. What a crock of shite that is - you'd swear nobody had ever heard of Catherine Nevin or Joe O'Reilly until after they were convicted.*

The media didn't name them until either was charged with an offence. There have been no charges here and there has not even been a suggestion, so far as I have seen, of any wrongdoing on the part of these investors. People are entitled to due process of law and it is something that everyone here might someday enjoy the right to possess. The Director of Corporate Enforcement has the power to investigate these matters and if there has been wrongdoing charges will be brought and the issue will have an airing publicly.

There is absolutely nothing to be gained from usurping the legal process.

Not in my view, the best example of due process. I agree johnfas. I'd hate to see anyone get off because of messing. And everyone has their right to their good names unless proven otherwise.
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PostSubject: Re: The Irish Banking Bother: /Anglo 10 /Gardaí raid Anglo offices/ AIB '08 results 2nd March   Sat Feb 21, 2009 3:45 am

There is no law against buying shares. Why not name who bought the shares? We all know Seánie Fitz's name don't we? And Roddy Molloy? And Joe Burke? So fucjing what? How does that prejudice anyone?

Ulick reckons they're heroes. There's a fair chance some of them reckon so too. Step forward ladies & gentlemen to accept the adoration and admiration of a grateful nation.
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PostSubject: Re: The Irish Banking Bother: /Anglo 10 /Gardaí raid Anglo offices/ AIB '08 results 2nd March   Sat Feb 21, 2009 12:28 pm

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PostSubject: Re: The Irish Banking Bother: /Anglo 10 /Gardaí raid Anglo offices/ AIB '08 results 2nd March   Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:01 pm

Hey Tony. Now pcw say the loss is 6 billion. They are doing some serious dreaming. Without the onset of hyperinflation the losses will be about 40 billion.

Clearly the bank guarantee is a fatal mistake foe Ireland.

It is all over
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PostSubject: Re: The Irish Banking Bother: /Anglo 10 /Gardaí raid Anglo offices/ AIB '08 results 2nd March   Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:09 pm

youngdan wrote:
Hey Tony. Now pcw say the loss is 6 billion. They are doing some serious dreaming. Without the onset of hyperinflation the losses will be about 40 billion.

Clearly the bank guarantee is a fatal mistake foe Ireland.

It is all over
Rubbish Dan, on the figures presented say 5.5 billion at risk, the bank would probably end with a loss of maybe .5 of a billion and only that if they have to sell the acquired asset now, if they wait until pick up time or can generate income from it in the mean time there may well be no loss at all.
Now you know this Dan, don't be getting my back up this early in the morning.
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PostSubject: Re: The Irish Banking Bother: /Anglo 10 /Gardaí raid Anglo offices/ AIB '08 results 2nd March   Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:13 pm

"Pick up time" - tonys - get real. The Fianna Fail dream of business back to usual in a couple of years time is so far off the mark that they must be living in a bubble. There is absolutely no chance of that.
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