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 the "make a noise" protest

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PostSubject: the "make a noise" protest   Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:24 am

from the p.ie site

"Please share this.
Are you ANGRY? Are you pissed off at the government and how they've led
us into this mess? Have you had a wage cut, lost your job, or had
access to state services like health and education for you and your
family cut back or denied? Do you want to let the government know how
you feel?
Join the MAKE A NOISE protest. At 5pm on Thurs 26th Feb, on your own or
with friends, go outside and MAKE NOISE. Beep a horn, bang a saucepan,
slam a door, rattle the railings, blow a whistle, scream and shout.
Listen to the answering noise all around you from everyone, young and
old, who is just as angry as you are, growing louder and louder as it
spreads up and down the country until those in power have no choice but
to listen and learn - it's time to depart - THE PEOPLE ARE ANGRY!!!
Please pass this message on to everyone you know via phone, text, email
and word of mouth- please share with the media, newspapers, TV, radio
stations etc. If you're angry, MAKE A NOISE! 5pm Thursday 26th
February."


Did anyone get an email like this? Wasn't sure at first but the more I think of it, it might be worth joining in... won't do any harm (to me) anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: the "make a noise" protest   Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:33 am

Yes, I can see that working. Maybe if we let off a few fireworks as well we might scare them off.

I think the polls are a more effective barometer of public opinion.

And when was anger ever a good reason to act? Aren't you supposed to not act in anger?
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PostSubject: Re: the "make a noise" protest   Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:44 am

What are you supposed to do in anger 905 ?
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PostSubject: Re: the "make a noise" protest   Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:48 am

Auditor #9 wrote:
What are you supposed to do in anger 905 ?
Well, wait till you're calm and in control and then act. I'm sure I'm not the only one that's been told this. You know, choosing thought over blind emotion?
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PostSubject: Re: the "make a noise" protest   Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:04 am

905 wrote:
Yes, I can see that working. Maybe if we let off a few fireworks as well we might scare them off.

I think the polls are a more effective barometer of public opinion.

And when was anger ever a good reason to act? Aren't you supposed to not act in anger?

Unsurprisingly, I've just attracted heavy criticism on p.ie from the usual quarters for suggesting that maybe we needed to think first.
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PostSubject: Re: the "make a noise" protest   Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:05 am

That's wiser 905 - it's harder to build a gallows when you're furious - you wouldn't want to be hitting your own finger with a hammer.

Seriously though, how do we know when to act when we're calm ? The time must be close. So how do we know what to do and when to do it?

Because something needs to be done.
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PostSubject: Re: the "make a noise" protest   Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:23 am

ibis wrote:
905 wrote:
Yes, I can see that working. Maybe if we let off a few fireworks as well we might scare them off.

I think the polls are a more effective barometer of public opinion.

And when was anger ever a good reason to act? Aren't you supposed to not act in anger?

Unsurprisingly, I've just attracted heavy criticism on p.ie from the usual quarters for suggesting that maybe we needed to think first.

Acting without thinking always leads to problems (I believe that was one purpose of the Nazi rallies - to dull peoples thinking faculties and have them acting out of unsconcious "will" only - but thats another for thread...)

The question is, when will we know the time for "thought" has concluded, and the time to put those thoughts into action has begun? Are we supposed to sit tight, mind our manners and wait for the ballot box? Cause Government parties say (with an air of smugness) that it wont be till 2012.

I want to save my country before then
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PostSubject: Re: the "make a noise" protest   Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:43 am

Auditor #9 wrote:
That's wiser 905 - it's harder to build a gallows when you're furious - you wouldn't want to be hitting your own finger with a hammer.

Seriously though, how do we know when to act when we're calm ? The time must be close. So how do we know what to do and when to do it?

Because something needs to be done.

Sure - unfortunately the current humour seems to be "something needs to be done - this is something, let's do it". That is, as they say, the same kind of thinking that got us into the mess in the first place.
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PostSubject: Re: the "make a noise" protest   Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:45 am

Quote :
The question is, when will we know the time for "thought" has concluded, and the time to put those thoughts into action has begun? Are we supposed to sit tight, mind our manners and wait for the ballot box? Cause Government parties say (with an air of smugness) that it wont be till 2012.

I want to save my country before then

No, I support the protesting in general - and the noise protest in particular - but what do we actually want out of it?

Me, I want to see more transparency. I want to see more citizen oversight, more electoral responsibility. I want better corruption legislation, and an end to the culture of small-scale corruption. I want to see us taking responsibility for our electoral choices. I want us not to go back to sleep.
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PostSubject: Re: the "make a noise" protest   Sat Feb 14, 2009 5:08 am

Ireland will never change, it's in the culture. It'll happen again within 20 years.
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PostSubject: Re: the "make a noise" protest   Sat Feb 14, 2009 5:12 am

yehbut_nobut wrote:


The question is, when will we know the time for "thought" has concluded, and the time to put those thoughts into action has begun? Are we supposed to sit tight, mind our manners and wait for the ballot box? Cause Government parties say (with an air of smugness) that it wont be till 2012.

I want to save my country before then

This government will not last to 2012, this Dáil will not last till then. We have two by-elections, local and European elections, a Lisbon referendum, a rights of the child referendum, a Presidential election and a Boundary Commission review in 2011. Add to that the fact that budgets 2010 and 11 will be the toughest in the history of the State and either one of them can sink the government in a failure to pass the Finance Act and you have the perfect recipe for a short Dáil. I'd give this current settlement till sometime in 2010.
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PostSubject: Re: the "make a noise" protest   Sat Feb 14, 2009 5:43 am

http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=86260

I have started this new movement
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PostSubject: Re: the "make a noise" protest   Sat Feb 14, 2009 6:07 am

ibis wrote:
905 wrote:
Yes, I can see that working. Maybe if we let off a few fireworks as well we might scare them off.

I think the polls are a more effective barometer of public opinion.

And when was anger ever a good reason to act? Aren't you supposed to not act in anger?

Unsurprisingly, I've just attracted heavy criticism on p.ie from the usual quarters for suggesting that maybe we needed to think first.

No shit Sherlock Very Happy - yes the Irish disease of no planning is not just restricted to the evil elites - thats what I say to everybody on a rant about cutbacks levys etc etc - well what the fuck would you do? - amazingly when you present them with the bald facts - we are going to need to borrow between 20-30 billion euros this year from a bond market that finds anything Irish about as appetizing as tucking into a cyanide sandwich laced with VD - they tend to cool their ardour and shut the fuck up!


Nite folks
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PostSubject: Re: the "make a noise" protest   Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:24 am

Sorry, it sounds like those buy noting days that people attempted to organise a few years ago. I do hope I'm wrong but I predict this will be a damp squib.
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PostSubject: Re: the "make a noise" protest   Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:22 pm

The noise I’d like to hear would be what we policies we should be following that would be guaranteed to work and what combination of parties would support such policies.
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PostSubject: Re: the "make a noise" protest   Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:17 pm

Quote :
At 5pm on Thurs 26th Feb

Is there any particular significance of this time and date?

Why not 1 p.m. on Friday, say?

The problem isn't getting rid of the government, it's what to replace them with. I think this is a time for people who want serious and radical change to work on organisation, study, debate, and developing a new model of how to run the economy - Irish and international - join your union if you can, if there isn't one start one, or association of unemployed.

At the same time we need to be defending what we have, services and jobs: that may well mean nationalisation on a big scale.

There is a need for a party that will deal these things and be prepared to undertake large scale radical change into the control of the majority and take it out of the hands of the corrupt layer of shysters that are running things now. I don't know if there is a party in existence that will do that.

Individuals can't do much in a situation like this.

If people are angy, no harm in showing it, but its going to take more than noise and protest to deal with the things that are making us angry.
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PostSubject: Re: the "make a noise" protest   Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:34 pm

ibis wrote:
Unsurprisingly, I've just attracted heavy criticism on p.ie from the usual quarters for suggesting that maybe we needed to think first.
You need to stop this thinking habit of yours ibis. It really upsets posters on p.ie :-)
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PostSubject: Re: the "make a noise" protest   Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:51 pm

This was my suggestion on indymedia
Quote :
The teachers, gardai, nurses and other essential people in the fabric
of this country should go up to Dail Eireann and demand the heads of
the bankers and the politicians who got us into this mess. They should
stay up there until these shameless traitors to our country come out of
government and positions of power with their heads hanging in shame. I
am a parent of a school going kid and I have absolutely no objection to
teachers making their voices heard in this way. How dare our government
hit the most important people in our country -our educators, our
protectors and our healthcare professionals, while giving the likes of
Pat Neary golden handshakes. Enough is enough!!!
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PostSubject: Re: the "make a noise" protest   Sat Feb 14, 2009 2:19 pm

floatingingalway wrote:
This was my suggestion on indymedia
Quote :
The teachers, gardai, nurses and other essential people in the fabric
of this country should go up to Dail Eireann and demand the heads of
the bankers and the politicians who got us into this mess. They should
stay up there until these shameless traitors to our country come out of
government and positions of power with their heads hanging in shame. I
am a parent of a school going kid and I have absolutely no objection to
teachers making their voices heard in this way. How dare our government
hit the most important people in our country -our educators, our
protectors and our healthcare professionals, while giving the likes of
Pat Neary golden handshakes. Enough is enough!!!
Assuming the “most important” people in the country, whose employment package is on average 50% better then those in the private sector, don’t have to give up any of that advantage, have you any suggestions as to where the necessary savings might be made.
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PostSubject: Re: the "make a noise" protest   Sat Feb 14, 2009 2:38 pm

tonys wrote:
floatingingalway wrote:
This was my suggestion on indymedia
Quote :
The teachers, gardai, nurses and other essential people in the fabric
of this country should go up to Dail Eireann and demand the heads of
the bankers and the politicians who got us into this mess. They should
stay up there until these shameless traitors to our country come out of
government and positions of power with their heads hanging in shame. I
am a parent of a school going kid and I have absolutely no objection to
teachers making their voices heard in this way. How dare our government
hit the most important people in our country -our educators, our
protectors and our healthcare professionals, while giving the likes of
Pat Neary golden handshakes. Enough is enough!!!
Assuming the “most important” people in the country, whose employment package is on average 50% better then those in the private sector, don’t have to give up any of that advantage, have you any suggestions as to where the necessary savings might be made.

Floatingingalway made a suggestion already tonys. Pat Neary has just been paid out between golden handshake, bonus and pension immediate money of 650,000 with potentially more than a million in pension to follow. Dismissal was clearly an option. Who authorised the payout, and was it specified in his contract that he could retire early on a date of his own setting on that remuneration ? If not, the person who authorised the payout should be dismissed too. That would be a small start.
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PostSubject: Re: the "make a noise" protest   Sat Feb 14, 2009 2:46 pm

cactus flower wrote:
tonys wrote:
floatingingalway wrote:
This was my suggestion on indymedia
Quote :
The teachers, gardai, nurses and other essential people in the fabric
of this country should go up to Dail Eireann and demand the heads of
the bankers and the politicians who got us into this mess. They should
stay up there until these shameless traitors to our country come out of
government and positions of power with their heads hanging in shame. I
am a parent of a school going kid and I have absolutely no objection to
teachers making their voices heard in this way. How dare our government
hit the most important people in our country -our educators, our
protectors and our healthcare professionals, while giving the likes of
Pat Neary golden handshakes. Enough is enough!!!
Assuming the “most important” people in the country, whose employment package is on average 50% better then those in the private sector, don’t have to give up any of that advantage, have you any suggestions as to where the necessary savings might be made.

Floatingingalway made a suggestion already tonys. Pat Neary has just been paid out between golden handshake, bonus and pension immediate money of 650,000 with potentially more than a million in pension to follow. Dismissal was clearly an option. Who authorised the payout, and was it specified in his contract that he could retire early on a date of his own setting on that remuneration ? If not, the person who authorised the payout should be dismissed too. That would be a small start.
I'm not interested in small acts of revenge or anger, justified or not, I've asked where the NECESSARY savings (14/16 billion) are going to be made, if as suggested, the 20% of the workforce who on average are 50% better off than the 80%, not to mention 100% secure, are not to be asked to make a contribution.
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PostSubject: Re: the "make a noise" protest   Sat Feb 14, 2009 2:47 pm

floatingingalway wrote:
This was my suggestion on indymedia
Quote :
The teachers, gardai, nurses and other essential people in the fabric
of this country should go up to Dail Eireann and demand the heads of
the bankers and the politicians who got us into this mess. They should
stay up there until these shameless traitors to our country come out of
government and positions of power with their heads hanging in shame. I
am a parent of a school going kid and I have absolutely no objection to
teachers making their voices heard in this way. How dare our government
hit the most important people in our country -our educators, our
protectors and our healthcare professionals, while giving the likes of
Pat Neary golden handshakes. Enough is enough!!!
Exclamation Exclamation Exclamation

Of all the public servants it is those ones you mention above who are most important now as the private sector withers. This government is relying on the private sector elsewhere to take off but that is not guaranteed to happen. Last night on the News at 6 we saw that the ESRI forecast a drop of 117,000 jobs this year when the biggest drop in the darkest years of the 80s was 24,000. People have to organise and bypass those currently in any positions of power as they just seem to be more prepared to bloodsuck than do ANYTHING helpful.

tonys

To address you on what 'policies' we need - we need things to happen that those in power now won't do such as rationalise the pay of the crust on top - have a look at the salaries these guys are earning and cut them down to Max 100k for a start - the ones we need that is.
http://www.tribune.ie/news/article/2008/nov/16/who-is-answering-lenihans-patriotic-call/
There's going to be more and more borrowing done this year and at increasing interest rates - are you going to press those most at need ????

* Quash the quangos that aren't needed
* Listen to and act on whatever FG and Labour have to offer with the consent of the people
* Speak to the people and tell them what's going on
* Stop hiding stuff and protecting 'commercially sensitive information' - that's CRAP - there's FRAUD happening not just to a bunch of shareholders in Anglo and BOI etc. but to an entire NATION. People realised they are being buggered without their consent - and they are treated like fools and demogogues for acknowledging it.
* EVERYTHING needs to be made transparent - FOI must be FREE - I mean EVERYTHING. Information is one thing we can afford to make accessible to all but when our people ask for it they are told to fuck off it or it costs a thousand euros for such and such - I refer you to SHANE ROSS and FÁS
* The economy must be rationalised - energy must be harnassed through wind, wave, forestry etc - there are thousands of people unemployed who could be involved in production in these sectors and money must be begged stolen or borrowed for AFFORDABLE projects. The ESB must be treated with a BIG STICK - appeal to Europe if you have to because when the shit hits the fan, energy and food are the things that we will all be needing. We could be self sufficient in energy so let's aim high - if we fail we might fall back to 50 - 70%.
* The Politics of this country must be turned UPSIDE DOWN. Too few have too much power. Where even is decent Dáil TV ??? We need to be allowed to get feedback and give feedback easily in this day and age. It's not possible at the minute to play back the Dáil in one day even - you have to wait two months. This to me is evidence of shoddy regard towards the members of a polity that'll end in tears unless there's more transparency.
* Tell your local councillors to expect to have more power as this is what is going to be needed; people are going to have to work on a local level and the little mayors and chieftains scattered around the country will need to give up their gold chains for locally-elected regional Governments.
* National politics and lawmaking will have to change - we've been seeing how Switzerland operates and the people there vote 3 or 4 times a years on tax and law issues. WHY THE HELL AREN'T WE DOING THAT???? Maybe we're too STUPID or too UNEDUCATED ??? I tell you this: a lot of this crap that is going down now would not be happening if people were given more responsibility because (i) people would be forced to be more reflective on their own actions (ii) people would be forced to take more interest in their society and their part in it.

We've become a society of overweight, hand-fed, SUV-driving snobs and we've allowed ourselves to become this. We've hung ourselves in a glasshouse and fed ourselves on a diet of super high-octane nitrates that are not guaranteed to continue being administered forever. The glasshouse is leaking heat and the plant food is running dangerously low. Information, knowledge and feedback are key to good growth - we need to know what the story is, we need to know how much of what is left and where to get more when it does run out and the sooner we are able to get this feedback the better before the rot fully blows up out of the simmering limbo the country is in right at the minute.
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PostSubject: Re: the "make a noise" protest   Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:43 pm

Auditor #9 wrote:
floatingingalway wrote:
This was my suggestion on indymedia
Quote :
The teachers, gardai, nurses and other essential people in the fabric
of this country should go up to Dail Eireann and demand the heads of
the bankers and the politicians who got us into this mess. They should
stay up there until these shameless traitors to our country come out of
government and positions of power with their heads hanging in shame. I
am a parent of a school going kid and I have absolutely no objection to
teachers making their voices heard in this way. How dare our government
hit the most important people in our country -our educators, our
protectors and our healthcare professionals, while giving the likes of
Pat Neary golden handshakes. Enough is enough!!!
Exclamation Exclamation Exclamation

Of all the public servants it is those ones you mention above who are most important now as the private sector withers. This government is relying on the private sector elsewhere to take off but that is not guaranteed to happen. Last night on the News at 6 we saw that the ESRI forecast a drop of 117,000 jobs this year when the biggest drop in the darkest years of the 80s was 24,000. People have to organise and bypass those currently in any positions of power as they just seem to be more prepared to bloodsuck than do ANYTHING helpful.

tonys

To address you on what 'policies' we need - we need things to happen that those in power now won't do such as rationalise the pay of the crust on top - have a look at the salaries these guys are earning and cut them down to Max 100k for a start - the ones we need that is.
http://www.tribune.ie/news/article/2008/nov/16/who-is-answering-lenihans-patriotic-call/
There's going to be more and more borrowing done this year and at increasing interest rates - are you going to press those most at need ????

* Quash the quangos that aren't needed
* Listen to and act on whatever FG and Labour have to offer with the consent of the people
* Speak to the people and tell them what's going on
* Stop hiding stuff and protecting 'commercially sensitive information' - that's CRAP - there's FRAUD happening not just to a bunch of shareholders in Anglo and BOI etc. but to an entire NATION. People realised they are being buggered without their consent - and they are treated like fools and demogogues for acknowledging it.
* EVERYTHING needs to be made transparent - FOI must be FREE - I mean EVERYTHING. Information is one thing we can afford to make accessible to all but when our people ask for it they are told to fuck off it or it costs a thousand euros for such and such - I refer you to SHANE ROSS and FÁS
* The economy must be rationalised - energy must be harnassed through wind, wave, forestry etc - there are thousands of people unemployed who could be involved in production in these sectors and money must be begged stolen or borrowed for AFFORDABLE projects. The ESB must be treated with a BIG STICK - appeal to Europe if you have to because when the shit hits the fan, energy and food are the things that we will all be needing. We could be self sufficient in energy so let's aim high - if we fail we might fall back to 50 - 70%.
* The Politics of this country must be turned UPSIDE DOWN. Too few have too much power. Where even is decent Dáil TV ??? We need to be allowed to get feedback and give feedback easily in this day and age. It's not possible at the minute to play back the Dáil in one day even - you have to wait two months. This to me is evidence of shoddy regard towards the members of a polity that'll end in tears unless there's more transparency.
* Tell your local councillors to expect to have more power as this is what is going to be needed; people are going to have to work on a local level and the little mayors and chieftains scattered around the country will need to give up their gold chains for locally-elected regional Governments.
* National politics and lawmaking will have to change - we've been seeing how Switzerland operates and the people there vote 3 or 4 times a years on tax and law issues. WHY THE HELL AREN'T WE DOING THAT???? Maybe we're too STUPID or too UNEDUCATED ??? I tell you this: a lot of this crap that is going down now would not be happening if people were given more responsibility because (i) people would be forced to be more reflective on their own actions (ii) people would be forced to take more interest in their society and their part in it.

We've become a society of overweight, hand-fed, SUV-driving snobs and we've allowed ourselves to become this. We've hung ourselves in a glasshouse and fed ourselves on a diet of super high-octane nitrates that are not guaranteed to continue being administered forever. The glasshouse is leaking heat and the plant food is running dangerously low. Information, knowledge and feedback are key to good growth - we need to know what the story is, we need to know how much of what is left and where to get more when it does run out and the sooner we are able to get this feedback the better before the rot fully blows up out of the simmering limbo the country is in right at the minute.
I wouldn't agree with you 100% on everything there, but neither would I have a major problem with any of it except this one;
* Listen to and act on whatever FG and Labour have to offer with the consent of the people.
Labour & FG are offering nothing they themselves would implement if they had the chance. They are instead playing to the gallery, Labour's "delay the levy" as an instance, in an effort to gain electoral points. That's fair enough and that's their job you might say and normally I'd agree with you, that is what oppositions do, but it's not what we need right now.

What we need right now is some serious leadership and I’d have to agree that the current Government are running out of chances to provide that. I think they should go to the banks for example and cap the top salaries at 500,000, if the banks don’t like it tell them the alternative is nationalisation & the sack. They themselves should also take a 50% cut in salary and apply to all elected politicians, that in itself won’t save much but it will show that they are willing to show solidarity.
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PostSubject: Re: the "make a noise" protest   Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:07 pm

Who should take a 50% cut? The politicians? I'd agree with you if so.

I'm not sure about the Opposition - they represent half our people so not listening to them is democratically blasphemous. Listening to electioneering demogogues might just as equally be devastating which is why I think we now need to try to get the consent of as many of our people as possible. Because wages and salaries and social welfare and everything will HAVE TO BE CUT and it may only be temporary. When the dentist is a good dentist he tells you what he is going to do in a calm voice and you get the impression then that you're not going to die ... this is the leadership we need now - someone who can galvanise a democracy, not feed the mouths of sectional interests. Everyone needs to someway agree on this.

If you mean cap salaries at 500k then I'd utterly disagree. We need to disband quangos and bolster the C&AG at the same time; we need to employ people who will get the best deals with public salaries as we're in position with our backs to the wall big time. Consultants, CEOs, Politicians, chairmen and directors salaries all need to be cut and the economy put in a state of almost a response to war. Your comrade Zhou has a fine old post around here to that effect which I'll dig out sometime later.

We need to pretend it's a war we're in otherwise an internal war will rip stuff apart. Make no mistake - people will die. A man outside Govt. buildings tried to set himself on fire with petrol yesterday, there have been instances of people boarding themselves up in houses with guns, people who drive Nissan Micras at RTE studios, people shooting themselves. Multiply this by 100 and you could be seeing Easter and 1000 and you could be seeing the Summer. Hopefully it won't happen but there are already noises.

Personally I think politicians should take a nominal salary this year and maybe next because we're in a state of war.

Ultimately we need feedback - we need to be presented with clear information so we can make the best decision possible. We might not make as good a decision as we'd like in hindsight but the chances we'll do something useful will be increased if we're given the fullest picture. Wages, salaries, prices, bank accounts, mortgages, quantities of energy we have, ability to produce food, stocks of oil, the whole lot. We need to know now so we can make choices that are good for the country.

Information is always the most crucial part of a war, without this you're fecked.
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PostSubject: Re: the "make a noise" protest   Sat Feb 14, 2009 6:35 pm

The current set up is designed to transfer wealth from the majority to the minority. Whatever it takes to reverse that and harness our natural resources in the common good is what we need. Otherwise we could find that a war is won and mysteriously the spoils of the war are all in the hands of the people who brought us to this point.

Why won't this Government do the obvious and raise higher level income taxes?

How many Cabinet members have Anglo Irish Loans - or more to the point - had them at the time of the Banks Guarantee?
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