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 Was the 'collapse' of government talks orchestrated - by the unions?

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PostSubject: Was the 'collapse' of government talks orchestrated - by the unions?   Thu Feb 05, 2009 5:22 am

The suspicion crossed my mind late yesterday afternoon while pondering the realtively tame response of the unions to the collapse in the talks. It doesnt seem to stack up. A letter in today's Irish Examiner makes it seem more likely. What do others think?

Quote :
Some time ago Peter McLoone of IMPACT clearly signalled a pension levy on public servants. Accordingly, it was very convenient formally to introduce it to the social partners at a very late hour thereby enabling the union representatives to “collapse” the talks and be seen by their members as resisting the levy. What hypocrisy!

http://www.irishexaminer.com/irishexaminer/pages/story.aspx-qqqg=opinion-qqqm=opinion-qqqa=general-qqqid=83659-qqqx=1.asp
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PostSubject: Re: Was the 'collapse' of government talks orchestrated - by the unions?   Thu Feb 05, 2009 5:32 am

Aragon wrote:
The suspicion crossed my mind late yesterday afternoon while pondering the realtively tame response of the unions to the collapse in the talks. It doesnt seem to stack up. A letter in today's Irish Examiner makes it seem more likely. What do others think?

Quote :
Some time ago Peter McLoone of IMPACT clearly signalled a pension levy on public servants. Accordingly, it was very convenient formally to introduce it to the social partners at a very late hour thereby enabling the union representatives to “collapse” the talks and be seen by their members as resisting the levy. What hypocrisy!

http://www.irishexaminer.com/irishexaminer/pages/story.aspx-qqqg=opinion-qqqm=opinion-qqqa=general-qqqid=83659-qqqx=1.asp

I think it's pretty obvious. The 'partners' were always going to do what they were told to do. We'll have a period now where the same 'partners' talk tough for the workers but counsel patience, whilst they see what crumbs will be tossed from the table. By the time it's noticed that the crumbs really are crumbs, the anger will have drained. Or at least that's the plan, I suspect.

If there had been any intention to fight the government, the 'partners' would have withdrawn from the partnership or at least started to ballot for strikes. Those days are long gone...
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PostSubject: Re: Was the 'collapse' of government talks orchestrated - by the unions?   Thu Feb 05, 2009 6:07 am

Hermes wrote:
Aragon wrote:
The suspicion crossed my mind late yesterday afternoon while pondering the realtively tame response of the unions to the collapse in the talks. It doesnt seem to stack up. A letter in today's Irish Examiner makes it seem more likely. What do others think?

Quote :
Some time ago Peter McLoone of IMPACT clearly signalled a pension levy on public servants. Accordingly, it was very convenient formally to introduce it to the social partners at a very late hour thereby enabling the union representatives to “collapse” the talks and be seen by their members as resisting the levy. What hypocrisy!

http://www.irishexaminer.com/irishexaminer/pages/story.aspx-qqqg=opinion-qqqm=opinion-qqqa=general-qqqid=83659-qqqx=1.asp

I think it's pretty obvious. The 'partners' were always going to do what they were told to do. We'll have a period now where the same 'partners' talk tough for the workers but counsel patience, whilst they see what crumbs will be tossed from the table. By the time it's noticed that the crumbs really are crumbs, the anger will have drained. Or at least that's the plan, I suspect.

If there had been any intention to fight the government, the 'partners' would have withdrawn from the partnership or at least started to ballot for strikes. Those days are long gone...

I knew they were tame and cowed but to more or less stage a 'breakdown' when in fact they're fully signed up to the plan...that's a special class of betrayal. Not that we ain't seen that sort of treachery before but in the present circumstances it serves only one purpose: to keep workers languishing under the illusion that the unions are making angry and insistent demands etc - to stave off strike action. The government know fine well that the situation is explosive, so letting the anger escape in dribs and drabs is a plausible strategy for containing it. Then again it may simply be that the unions are simply being as useless as ever - fumbling the ball and balking at doing what they should.

The government and IBEC are terrified of strikes. David Begg, on message, was talking today about not wanting to do 'anything destructive'. WTF is he on about. Talk about inverting reality. These guys are all surely rubbing each others backs - at least the politicians and the unions are. Is this public posturing merely that: union reps on telly 'consulting with their members who are of course very angry' but leaving the obvious course of action ignored. My guess is they are waiting a few days to see whether the anger will abate. What's the bloody delay for God's sake, otherwise - they are now talking of organisaing a meeting with members which there doesnt seem to be any real urgency about. I think we are witnessing a choreographed exercise in public anger management, on reflection.

The letter writer above is right though, that obnoxious ****ard Turlough O' Sullivan is the real Minister for Finance. It is infuriating that IBEC are not yet exposed as the real fuckers behind this country's ruination - even before the 'crisis' hit. If I lived in Dublin I'd be busting myself to get a major protest going at their offices, and to keep one there until they are taught a lesson. This crowd are without a doubt the most evil influence on Irish economy and society. If I have to watch one more craven RTE journalist almost genuflecting before an IBEC spokesperson, I'm going to spontaneously combust. They swan into the studios with smug sneers on their faces and are treated like deities dispensing pearls of wisdom. The dont offer opinions, the issue demands and admonishments - and politicians run like frightened little girls before their wrath. They are NEVER pressed on the logic or worth of what they are saying - except in the most superficial way.

Im off to take some blood pressure medicine.
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PostSubject: Re: Was the 'collapse' of government talks orchestrated - by the unions?   Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:52 pm

Read this on IBEC -

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/83641m-a-year-in-public-money-props-up-ibec-1475189.html

IBEC are mainly funded by the Semi States like FAS and by the Banks. Serious businesses avoid them like the plague.

They are very close to being a government agency.
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PostSubject: Re: Was the 'collapse' of government talks orchestrated - by the unions?   Thu Feb 05, 2009 3:11 pm

Correct - IBEC offer little to companies so why bother joining.
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PostSubject: Re: Was the 'collapse' of government talks orchestrated - by the unions?   Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:42 pm

Hermes wrote:
Aragon wrote:
The suspicion crossed my mind late yesterday afternoon while pondering the realtively tame response of the unions to the collapse in the talks. It doesnt seem to stack up. A letter in today's Irish Examiner makes it seem more likely. What do others think?

Quote :
Some time ago Peter McLoone of IMPACT clearly signalled a pension levy on public servants. Accordingly, it was very convenient formally to introduce it to the social partners at a very late hour thereby enabling the union representatives to “collapse” the talks and be seen by their members as resisting the levy. What hypocrisy!

http://www.irishexaminer.com/irishexaminer/pages/story.aspx-qqqg=opinion-qqqm=opinion-qqqa=general-qqqid=83659-qqqx=1.asp

I think it's pretty obvious. The 'partners' were always going to do what they were told to do. We'll have a period now where the same 'partners' talk tough for the workers but counsel patience, whilst they see what crumbs will be tossed from the table. By the time it's noticed that the crumbs really are crumbs, the anger will have drained. Or at least that's the plan, I suspect.

If there had been any intention to fight the government, the 'partners' would have withdrawn from the partnership or at least started to ballot for strikes. Those days are long gone...
Transparently so Aragon and Hermes.Even the luvvies who engage in this farce,which if circumstances were different would have given The Mousetrap a run for it's money,must realise this.
Peter McLoone.The self-same Chairman of FAS.
Danny Mc Coy.IBEC Director of Policy and FAS Board member.
David Begg.ICTU Head Beard.Board member of Central Bank.
And on ad infinitum
A music hall mish-mash of an Ahernian crafted three ring circus.
Trio vs. Lannigans Ball.
Da da da.....


Last edited by powderfinger on Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Was the 'collapse' of government talks orchestrated - by the unions?   Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:18 pm

powderfinger wrote:
Hermes wrote:
Aragon wrote:
The suspicion crossed my mind late yesterday afternoon while pondering the realtively tame response of the unions to the collapse in the talks. It doesnt seem to stack up. A letter in today's Irish Examiner makes it seem more likely. What do others think?

Quote :
Some time ago Peter McLoone of IMPACT clearly signalled a pension levy on public servants. Accordingly, it was very convenient formally to introduce it to the social partners at a very late hour thereby enabling the union representatives to “collapse” the talks and be seen by their members as resisting the levy. What hypocrisy!

http://www.irishexaminer.com/irishexaminer/pages/story.aspx-qqqg=opinion-qqqm=opinion-qqqa=general-qqqid=83659-qqqx=1.asp

I think it's pretty obvious. The 'partners' were always going to do what they were told to do. We'll have a period now where the same 'partners' talk tough for the workers but counsel patience, whilst they see what crumbs will be tossed from the table. By the time it's noticed that the crumbs really are crumbs, the anger will have drained. Or at least that's the plan, I suspect.

If there had been any intention to fight the government, the 'partners' would have withdrawn from the partnership or at least started to ballot for strikes. Those days are long gone...
Transparently so Hermes.Even the luvvies who engage in this farce,which if circumstances were different would have given The Mousetrap a run for it's money,must realise this.
Peter McLoone.The self-same Chairman of FAS.
Danny Mc Coy.IBEC Director of Policy and FAS Board member.
David Begg.ICTU Head Beard.Board member of Central Bank.
And on ad infinitum
A music hall mish-mash of an Ahernian crafted three ring circus.
Trio vs. Lannigans Ball.
Da da da.....

Nicely put powderfinger. There is a little pseudo aristocracy there.
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PostSubject: Re: Was the 'collapse' of government talks orchestrated - by the unions?   Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:24 pm

cactus flower wrote:
powderfinger wrote:
Hermes wrote:
Aragon wrote:
The suspicion crossed my mind late yesterday afternoon while pondering the realtively tame response of the unions to the collapse in the talks. It doesnt seem to stack up. A letter in today's Irish Examiner makes it seem more likely. What do others think?

Quote :
Some time ago Peter McLoone of IMPACT clearly signalled a pension levy on public servants. Accordingly, it was very convenient formally to introduce it to the social partners at a very late hour thereby enabling the union representatives to “collapse” the talks and be seen by their members as resisting the levy. What hypocrisy!

http://www.irishexaminer.com/irishexaminer/pages/story.aspx-qqqg=opinion-qqqm=opinion-qqqa=general-qqqid=83659-qqqx=1.asp

I think it's pretty obvious. The 'partners' were always going to do what they were told to do. We'll have a period now where the same 'partners' talk tough for the workers but counsel patience, whilst they see what crumbs will be tossed from the table. By the time it's noticed that the crumbs really are crumbs, the anger will have drained. Or at least that's the plan, I suspect.

If there had been any intention to fight the government, the 'partners' would have withdrawn from the partnership or at least started to ballot for strikes. Those days are long gone...
Transparently so Hermes.Even the luvvies who engage in this farce,which if circumstances were different would have given The Mousetrap a run for it's money,must realise this.
Peter McLoone.The self-same Chairman of FAS.
Danny Mc Coy.IBEC Director of Policy and FAS Board member.
David Begg.ICTU Head Beard.Board member of Central Bank.
And on ad infinitum
A music hall mish-mash of an Ahernian crafted three ring circus.
Trio vs. Lannigans Ball.
Da da da.....

Nicely put powderfinger. There is a little pseudo aristocracy there.
Maybe they had a collective attack of realism.
Either way, I'll tell you what, if this works, heads will roll.
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PostSubject: Re: Was the 'collapse' of government talks orchestrated - by the unions?   Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:31 pm

The unions probably told the Government that there was no way they would get a mandate from their members to sign up to what is necessary to achieve the savings. As sympathetic as they may have been there was no point in continuing if that was the case. You can call that orchestrating the collapse or whatever you want. The fact is that there is no deception going on. The union leaders knew not to promise what they could not deliver and left it at that. If they are not screaming and kicking it is because they know the Government has no choice and has done its best to accommodate them.

IBEC had very little function as far as I am aware. They just wanted an extended pause on pay increases. While that was not agreed, I don't think it was the main problem.
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PostSubject: Re: Was the 'collapse' of government talks orchestrated - by the unions?   Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:32 pm

Zhou_Enlai wrote:
The unions probably told the Government that there was no way they would get a mandate from their members to sign up to what is necessary to achieve the savings. As sympathetic as they may have been there was no point in continuing if that was the case. You can call that orchestrating the collapse or whatever you want. The fact is that there is no deception going on. The union leaders knew not to promise what they could not deliver and left it at that. If they are not screaming and kicking it is because they know the Government has no choice and has done its best to accommodate them.

IBEC had very little function as far as I am aware. They just wanted an extended pause on pay increases. While that was not agreed, I don't think it was the main problem.

That all sounds nice and comfy within the insulated world of the 'Social Partnership'. It overlooks some important things e.g. union rank and file are disgusted with their representation within the SP - widely regarded as government lackeys. With respect Zhou, when yourself and Tonys come anyway close to praising them, then we have all the proof we need that this is so.

IBEC are a despicable bunch of greed merchants - they have wielded enormous influence on government. Sure they kept thier faces hidden from the unions but it was them, as one of the neogiators admitted on the radio the other morning, who gave Lenihan and Cowen their marching orders. Those bastards are crawling all over EVERY single government department - government appointees to quangos on everything from immigration, social welfare, education and health to foreign relations. They have been busy fucking up every single thing they could get their hands on, and all our media can do is drool like idiots at them.

The most damning sight of all, is to witness all the FF people who imagine they are being sophisticated and smart by bying into the arrant nonsense pedalled by IBEC - privatisation of healt being a blindingly obvious case in point. What a bunch of gullible fools. Or maybe just a bunch of bought fools. Both, in all likelihood. Certainly Mary Harney has a big case to answer there.

IBEC ARE the de facto government though they try to keep it well hidden - the client reprsentatives of the foreign rapist corporations who have had money sloshed at them by our ogvernment with no accountability for how it is being spent or whether it is good value. Endy Kenny alluded to all of this in his speech.

IBEC actually dont give a damn about indiginous or small business. They pay them lip service and encourage them into membership but they are never allowed to rock the boat.
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PostSubject: Re: Was the 'collapse' of government talks orchestrated - by the unions?   Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:55 pm

I thought IBEC were unhelpful before the talks and did not appear to make any great contribution during the talks. I am not a big IBEC fan. I don't know anyone they represent. They don't represent me or who I work for. They don't represent many of the businesses I know of whch are in trouble. They agreed to wage increases last year FFS.

I would be surprised if IBEC were more successful than the unions in getting their own way over the last number of years. The unions who also do not represent me have got their way on loads of things.

You are annoyed because the union leaders are not screaming blue murder and threatening massive industrial unrest. You seem to think it is because everybody is stupid or on a gravy train and IBEC are pulling all the strings. Fine by me if you want to believe that. For my part, I think the unions are nauseous at the economic picture which the government laid out before them and are concerned that industrial unrest will harm their members a lot more than the proposed cuts.

Also, the unions have to be careful not to push a baleful public too far. The pension levy is severe but it is small compared to the cuts a lot of the rest of us are taking without complaint.
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PostSubject: Re: Was the 'collapse' of government talks orchestrated - by the unions?   Thu Feb 05, 2009 11:23 pm

Aragon wrote:
Zhou_Enlai wrote:
The unions probably told the Government that there was no way they would get a mandate from their members to sign up to what is necessary to achieve the savings. As sympathetic as they may have been there was no point in continuing if that was the case. You can call that orchestrating the collapse or whatever you want. The fact is that there is no deception going on. The union leaders knew not to promise what they could not deliver and left it at that. If they are not screaming and kicking it is because they know the Government has no choice and has done its best to accommodate them.

IBEC had very little function as far as I am aware. They just wanted an extended pause on pay increases. While that was not agreed, I don't think it was the main problem.

That all sounds nice and comfy within the insulated world of the 'Social Partnership'. It overlooks some important things e.g. union rank and file are disgusted with their representation within the SP - widely regarded as government lackeys. With respect Zhou, when yourself and Tonys come anyway close to praising them, then we have all the proof we need that this is so.
Zhou, you're damned you poor fucker and you don't even know me.
You see in Aragon's world there is only her view and damnation and as you don't agree with her view, there's only one place for you.
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PostSubject: Re: Was the 'collapse' of government talks orchestrated - by the unions?   Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:17 am

tonys wrote:
Aragon wrote:
Zhou_Enlai wrote:
The unions probably told the Government that there was no way they would get a mandate from their members to sign up to what is necessary to achieve the savings. As sympathetic as they may have been there was no point in continuing if that was the case. You can call that orchestrating the collapse or whatever you want. The fact is that there is no deception going on. The union leaders knew not to promise what they could not deliver and left it at that. If they are not screaming and kicking it is because they know the Government has no choice and has done its best to accommodate them.

IBEC had very little function as far as I am aware. They just wanted an extended pause on pay increases. While that was not agreed, I don't think it was the main problem.

That all sounds nice and comfy within the insulated world of the 'Social Partnership'. It overlooks some important things e.g. union rank and file are disgusted with their representation within the SP - widely regarded as government lackeys. With respect Zhou, when yourself and Tonys come anyway close to praising them, then we have all the proof we need that this is so.
Zhou, you're damned you poor fucker and you don't even know me.
You see in Aragon's world there is only her view and damnation and as you don't agree with her view, there's only one place for you.

And I love you too tonys I love you Smile
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