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 Cowen's twelve hours

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PostSubject: Re: Cowen's twelve hours   Thu Feb 05, 2009 1:14 am

Tony's. We pride ourselves in the Machine Nation on a really, really sparing use of
rolly eyes

You've used up about three year's ration in one post Crying or Very sad
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PostSubject: Re: Cowen's twelve hours   Thu Feb 05, 2009 1:15 am

cactus flower wrote:
Tony's. We pride ourselves in the Machine Nation on a really, really sparing use of
rolly eyes

You've used up about three year's ration in one post Crying or Very sad
you're worth it.
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PostSubject: Re: Cowen's twelve hours   Thu Feb 05, 2009 1:57 am

tonys wrote:
Papal_knight Two wrote:
tonys wrote:
Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

One set of rolling eyes for each seat FF will win in the next general election. lol!
Now you’re getting it. That’s the way to become expert at predictions, slow but steady improvement from your last efforts. Keep this up and by the election of 2043 people will be laughing out of the other side of their face…….they’ll still be laughing mind.

Obviously FFers are as lacking in skill in understanding sarcasm as they are lacking in skill in running the country.
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PostSubject: Re: Cowen's twelve hours   Thu Feb 05, 2009 1:59 am

cactus flower wrote:
Tony's. We pride ourselves in the Machine Nation on a really, really sparing use of
rolly eyes

You've used up about three year's ration in one post Crying or Very sad

You'd better not let Future Taoiseach defect from politics.ie then. He seems to use at least three rolling eyes every post. Play piano
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PostSubject: Re: Cowen's twelve hours   Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:06 am

He has a Third Eye ? cyclops What a Face
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PostSubject: Re: Cowen's twelve hours   Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:12 pm

Papal_knight Two wrote:
A journalist colleague predicted today that Brian Cowen had 12 hours left to save his reputation.
....
According to the journalist, today was Cowen's last chance.
....
The argument is that he had twelve hours today to seize the initiative, grab public respect and make people trust him again.

If he failed, he was finished.

That would not mean that he would lose his job immediately. But that if he blew it today, he would get no more chances. He would be a political dead man walking, condemned in history to be seen as a failed taoiseach, limping on in office until either his party deposed him or he was binned in the election.

..............
So has Cowen blown his key 12 hours? And if so, was it his last chance to save his reputation and earn the respect and trust of the voters?

Your journalist friend must operate on some kind of bizarre numerological instinct. The OP basically slates Cowen repeatedly in an extremely partisan way and throws in this 12 hours a few times. The 12 hour concept suggests that most people are watching Cowen's performance in the Dail for the day. They're not. At most, they see the sound bite on the news.

The 12 hours thing is makey-uppy nonsense designed to attack Cowen with. The journalist basically came up with it in his/her head and gave it credence on the basis that he/she had thought of it. It is tantamount to quoting the voices in your head as the source for a story. I suggest you advise your journalist friend not to submit such tripe to the editor unless he/she writes for the Independent.

BTW - what did Gilmore do to Independent Newspapers?? "The Biggest Bluffer in the Dail"? FFS, it's no wonder their circulation is way down.
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PostSubject: Re: Cowen's twelve hours   Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:36 pm

Papal says Cowen has 12 hours he just dosn't say when the 12 hours are. Who knows but it wasn't the 12 hours immediately following his grand announcement, that was for sure.
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PostSubject: Re: Cowen's twelve hours   Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:17 am

Zhou_Enlai wrote:
Papal_knight Two wrote:
A journalist colleague predicted today that Brian Cowen had 12 hours left to save his reputation.
....
According to the journalist, today was Cowen's last chance.
....
The argument is that he had twelve hours today to seize the initiative, grab public respect and make people trust him again.

If he failed, he was finished.

That would not mean that he would lose his job immediately. But that if he blew it today, he would get no more chances. He would be a political dead man walking, condemned in history to be seen as a failed taoiseach, limping on in office until either his party deposed him or he was binned in the election.

..............
So has Cowen blown his key 12 hours? And if so, was it his last chance to save his reputation and earn the respect and trust of the voters?

Your journalist friend must operate on some kind of bizarre numerological instinct. The OP basically slates Cowen repeatedly in an extremely partisan way and throws in this 12 hours a few times. The 12 hour concept suggests that most people are watching Cowen's performance in the Dail for the day. They're not. At most, they see the sound bite on the news.

The 12 hours thing is makey-uppy nonsense designed to attack Cowen with. The journalist basically came up with it in his/her head and gave it credence on the basis that he/she had thought of it. It is tantamount to quoting the voices in your head as the source for a story. I suggest you advise your journalist friend not to submit such tripe to the editor unless he/she writes for the Independent.

BTW - what did Gilmore do to Independent Newspapers?? "The Biggest Bluffer in the Dail"? FFS, it's no wonder their circulation is way down.

It meant that from his 4pm announcement, Cowen had from 4-10pm that day, and from 8am-2pm on the following one. In other words he had the length of the Dáil statement plus talk radio in the 5-7 period, the 9 O'clock News and Prime Time, at which point all but the hardened news junkies tune out of news coverage, then the next day Morning Ireland, Today with Pat Kenny, down to the News at One, and the equivalent programmes on local radio and on television. If by the end of lunch time when they were going back to work they had not been convinced, they never would.

When he became taoiseach he had months to convince people, he blew it. People very soon began to have doubts over whether he really was as good as they had believed. He had an emergency cutbacks package to convince people, and blew it. Again he didn't show the skills people thought he had. They didn't write him off though just yet. People gave him another chance with the budget and he blew it. He then had a chance with his economic programme in December and blew it. People hoped he would come back in January and show he was up to the job. He didn't.

In government you only get so many chances. By this week Cowen was on his last chance. If he didn't convince people now they would not give him any more chances. According to the journalist Cowen has the period from the Dáil speech to the end of Prime Time, and the next day from the 8 O'Clock News in Morning Ireland, when most listeners to the show tune in, and the end of the News at One, when people go back to work. If he had not won people over by then, public would react with "fuck it. This guy will never change. He'll never deliver" and write him off, with no more chances, and no more hope that he might finally deliver on the belief people once had in him.
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PostSubject: Re: Cowen's twelve hours   Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:00 am

I was going to reply, but decided I'd let Enda Kenny do it for me instead. Find one single concrete point or response he had to make about the most important story of the day, the one that was discussed on radio stations across the country from the time news of the 4pm announcement broke. Find one thing that shows me Enda Kenny had four hours to familiarise himself with the consequences fo the pensions levy rather than the four minutes you credit him with.

Remember, this is the elephant in the room - has been since it was on the table at the talks. The most important story, development of the day, the no-surprise-to-anyone story. The Taoiseach takes over a billion Euro from public servants and what does Enda Kenny have to say about it?

One-size-fits-all rhetoric, that's what.

Your response above does neither yourself, PK2 or Enda Kenny any favours.

Quote :
Deputy Enda Kenny: I am conscious that as we rise to speak on this motion we expect Exchequer figures to be published shortly which will not bring good news for the Government or for our people. Tomorrow, we expect unemployment figures to be the worst ever and we also expect a probable downgrading of the financial standing of this country internationally.

As Leader of the Opposition, part of my job is to oppose the Government and the way it does business. We have gone beyond the stage of merely point scoring. We are in a much too serious position to involve oneself principally in the business of cross-party fire. However, a number of things need to be said. It is clear the country has yearned for leadership and a sense of direction and coherence for some time. The morale of the people is at an historic low.
Everyone in this House, which represents all sectors and people of the Twenty-six Counties, has spent the past two months listening to a soaring increase in the number of horrific stories being told in offices throughout the land including the fact that 10,000 people per month are losing their jobs, the real shock of a person becoming unemployed with no prospect of a future, people who worked for up to 40 years seeing the pension rights they thought they had accumulated disappear and those who face repossession of their homes and the social stress and consequences of this fact.
In all this time, the Government, led by the Taoiseach, Deputy Cowen, effectively turned its face away from its people. It put the people on hold and real life into suspended animation by continuously stating it would come up with a grand plan and have a clear strategy for the future. Patience was shown while pain was suffered. For the past two months, the Government outsourced decision making to social partners. It is a most disgraceful abrogation of a leader’s responsibility in the politics of this country.
Trust was vested in the Taoiseach and today he has stood before us and proved beyond doubt that the way business has been conducted in recent months means he did not merit the placing of this trust in him. His speech marks a unique moment in Dáil history. It is the first time that a Dáil has had placed before it a plan which has already been rejected by the social partners who played such an important part in the development and sustaining of our business during the past 30 years.
Deputy John Cregan: Deputy Kenny did not want them last week.

Deputy Timmy Dooley: Deputy Kenny cannot have it both ways.

An Ceann Comhairle: Deputy Kenny without interruption.

Deputy Enda Kenny: Yes, and for the past two months everyone in the Government wanted the cloak of social partnership wrapped around him or her. At every public meeting, members of the Government stated that social partnership is the way forward. Last night, the Government’s philosophy was tried and tested and obviously it did not bring the results the Government wanted.

As a result of two months of wasted time, the Government’s vessel is holed below the waterline. I cannot understand how it is reported that at 3 a.m. the Government’s proposals were put on the table before a large number of civil servants and union officials. During the previous two months €3 billion was added to the national debt because of the Government’s prevarication and indecisiveness. Worse than wasted time is the fact that people who placed their trust in Government that a coherence would emerge have been betrayed.
This party has long recognised the magnitude of this economic crisis. It is not today or yesterday that we were pointing out the wrong direction in which the Government was moving and the need to secure big savings in public spending that are fair and balanced. As the crisis in the economy and the public finances escalated over the past 18 months, there has been a clear vacuum of leadership at the heart of the Government. Instead of setting out a clear recovery strategy and seeking to win popular support from those who count in the country, the Government, from its analysis and proposals, pursued a strategy of denial, delay, obfuscation and what eventually amounted to secret negotiations in respect of which all the Members elected to this House by the people were left in the dark.
The people and their representatives were, at all times, excluded from this process. Proposals put forward in this Chamber for cuts in spending, pay moderation and public service reform were dismissed and cast aside arrogantly by the Government. Instead of accepting them, Fianna Fáil turned again to its once-tight network of power brokers and vested interests, as it has always done, to give its inept Government some political cover and to make some attempt at credibility. This approach to government has always relied on Fianna Fáil’s ability, particularly over the past 11 years, to dish out the goodies to well-connected interest groups. As the bubble economy implodes, there is no more room for political patronage from the Fianna Fáil Party.
Deputy Paul Gogarty: Or Fine Gael.

Deputy Enda Kenny: The public coffers have been emptied, the developers and the banks are bust, and trade unions have little to offer. The game is up, the Taoiseach’s strategy has failed and his network of power and patronage is disintegrating around him. Now, we expect, public servants, small businesses and PAYE workers will be asked to bear serious pain to help solve problems created by catastrophic failures on the part of politicians, bankers, business leaders and regulators.

Legitimate recovery cannot be just about dishing out pain to public servants without making decisions that begin with what has been described as a revolution in the way public services are managed from the top down. The failure to achieve this demonstrates the real failure of the Government to address the governance of the country, the scale of that governance and the way it has proceeded in the wrong direction over recent years.
For our part, we have stated on many occasions that everything about the Taoiseach’s style of leadership and government must change if we are to escape this meltdown. The only way to recovery is through serious reform. The Taoiseach says he is moving ahead to make the decisions outlined in his statement today. Where are the decisions to break up the cosy relationships between Ministers and senior civil servants that conceal waste in Departments, evade scrutiny, duck responsibility or reward gross failures with golden handshakes? Where is the strategy to deal with these?
Deputy Michael Ring: Hear, hear.

Deputy Enda Kenny: Where is the strategy to clear out from our financial and regulatory systems the people who have so damaged trust in our banks? Without trust one cannot have confidence and if one does not have confidence our economy cannot develop and prosper.

We require a strategy to end the practice of Ministers and Taoisigh appointing friends to State boards and we must open up the appointments to scrutiny by the Oireachtas. We should implement the recommendations of the Competition Authority to break up the price gouging practices in the professions and the retail, energy and transport sectors. The Taoiseach has referred, in part, to some of these. We must break the stranglehold that public and private sector monopolists - Eircom, the ESB, CIE and Aer Rianta - have over the development of key infrastructure and networks vital to the country’s development and put the consumer, individual and small business first.
We must bypass the vested interests that perpetuate a deeply unfair and grossly inefficient health system and transfer control of the considerable resources being spent on health care from HSE bureaucrats to patients and their doctors. It is necessary to focus on the clear opportunities and the potential that exists for job creation and the restoration of confidence.
What we are seeing now is the unworkable - rejected in advance by those whom the Government said were pivotal to its success - presented as a solution to problems that have become worse on a daily basis while this non-plan was in fermentation. This is the Taoiseach’s way. He said he would do things his way. His way involves denial, indecision and delay and his way refused any notion of bipartisanship. On a number of occasions we offered opportunities for discussion on a way forward but they were all spurned and rejected by Fianna Fáil. Even as late as today, the philosophy and direction being followed by the Taoiseach has failed. Tragically, it is the ordinary taxpayer, home-maker and small businessperson who will pay for that failure.
Against the scale of change that is needed to bring about economic recovery, this proposal is a €2 billion sticking plaster designed to cover a gaping wound that has not been treated at its roots. It brings us all to a point where our country faces a financial crisis of an unprecedented scale. From that perspective, sadly the Taoiseach has evolved into a politician who will not listen to any advice or proposal. He is a leader without credibility and a Taoiseach without a mandate. That is because his party has been in Government for too long and has lost touch with what is happening on the streets.
The days of the Taoiseach’s Government may well be numbered and the real cause of this is that he has been in power too long and is thus too removed from what is happening. When the people next get the opportunity, they will make a different choice.
For our part-----

(Interruptions).Deputy Enda Kenny: -----let me again offer support to the Taoiseach, the head of the Government pro tempore. I do so in the sense that if he is prepared to listen to the proposals that this party forwards in terms of tax, job creation, public service reform and cutting the public pay bill, it will not be found wanting. The direction, method and implementation of the Taoiseach’s plan has been seen to be a failure, as is evident from its rejection last night
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PostSubject: Re: Cowen's twelve hours   Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:47 am

That looks hard to read, Kate P. Mary Harney and James O'Reilly were just on Primetime and at this stage all I can hear is

"Blleeeuh bla bla bleeeuh, bla blaa blaah blee." "But.. blaaah bleeuh bla bla bla bla bleuuh blaaaah."

Same with Cowen and Kenny.
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PostSubject: Re: Cowen's twelve hours   Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:35 am

Was Fionnán Sheehan in the Indo today, bashing Gilmore as being a "bluffer" and adding nothing whatsoever to debate either ?

They are all playing politics while our people cry and weep and sob, and then bend down and bend over for more.

The country is being looted by the lot of them. Apologies for sounding like youngdan but it's just true - I've reached the Acceptance phase.

Now pass the Vaseline please before it's all gone.
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PostSubject: Re: Cowen's twelve hours   Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:47 am

I keep going to look for what Indian micro-credit guy said in Davos and getting distracted by fascinating posts.

Did you see Cookiemonster's interesting link to a micro-credit site? You lend a few shekels at reasonable interest rate to a tiny enterprise in Tashkent, or Skibbereen, or wherever.
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PostSubject: Re: Cowen's twelve hours   Fri Feb 06, 2009 4:02 am

cactus flower wrote:
I keep going to look for what Indian micro-credit guy said in Davos and getting distracted by fascinating posts.

Did you see Cookiemonster's interesting link to a micro-credit site? You lend a few shekels at reasonable interest rate to a tiny enterprise in Tashkent, or Skibbereen, or wherever.
Kiva? It looks authentic. We should invest now while we still have the $25 to spare - they might return the favour at a later stage when we'll need it.
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PostSubject: Re: Cowen's twelve hours   Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:40 am

Just heard part of Cowen’s speech last night, off the cuff, telling it like it is.
Well done Brian, lets have lots more of that please.
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PostSubject: Re: Cowen's twelve hours   Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:23 pm

Yeah tonys, I heard all the talking heads this morning oohing and aahing over the fact he could compose his thoughts and talk for 20 minutes flat without some flunky writing it all down for him first. Amazing. Who'd have thought a mere adult capable of such a tour-de-force? I think Ireland has found her new Liberator. Daniel O'Connell walks amongst us once again.

That should amuse the halfwits for long enough to buy Cowen the time to complete sell out what's left of our country's future to his builder and banker friends.

F*** off Cowen. Seize the assets of the bastards who brought the country down and then we'll listen to your guff about patriotism. Otherwise, you're just another in a long line of gombeen men fumbling in your greasy till.
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PostSubject: Re: Cowen's twelve hours   Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:45 pm

coc wrote:
Yeah tonys, I heard all the talking heads this morning oohing and aahing over the fact he could compose his thoughts and talk for 20 minutes flat without some flunky writing it all down for him first. Amazing. Who'd have thought a mere adult capable of such a tour-de-force? I think Ireland has found her new Liberator. Daniel O'Connell walks amongst us once again.

That should amuse the halfwits for long enough to buy Cowen the time to complete sell out what's left of our country's future to his builder and banker friends.

F*** off Cowen. Seize the assets of the bastards who brought the country down and then we'll listen to your guff about patriotism. Otherwise, you're just another in a long line of gombeen men fumbling in your greasy till.
Yes indeed, You don't notice that's said, you only notice who's talking. A not uncommon fault in your kind.
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PostSubject: Re: Cowen's twelve hours   Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:58 pm

It was a good speech - at least we know he has the stomach for a fight.
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PostSubject: Re: Cowen's twelve hours   Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:02 pm

.


Last edited by coc on Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Cowen's twelve hours   Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:10 pm

coc wrote:
tonys wrote:
Yes indeed, You don't notice that's said, you only notice who's talking. A not uncommon fault in your kind.
****** .
What a clever riposte!


Last edited by Kate P on Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:25 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Since coc self-modded this, I'm removing it in fairness to all - Mod)
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PostSubject: Re: Cowen's twelve hours   Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:19 pm

[The above few posts belong in the mudslinging galleries of p.ie and not here.]


Cowen must have had a good night's sleep.

I liked his comments about people pulling together and social solidarity. I think the more extreme back-biting between public and private sector has been stupid, ignorant and counter-productive.

I also agree with his assessment that the next generation won't have it as good as the last did.

Enda Kenny's speech above leaves me cold. To be honest I think it is born out of the bitterness of being out of power for so long. I can understand that but it still is quite unimpressive. He seemed confused about social partnership.

First he criticises recourse to partnerhsip at all: "For the past two months, the Government outsourced decision making to social partners. It is a most disgraceful abrogation of a leader’s responsibility in the politics of this country."

Then he criticises the failure to get agreement: "It is the first time that a Dáil has had placed before it a plan which has already been rejected by the social partners who played such an important part in the development and sustaining of our business during the past 30 years."

Then he criticises seeking agreement: "Yes, and for the past two months everyone in the Government wanted the cloak of social partnership wrapped around him or her."

Then he says failure to reach agreement was fatal: "At every public meeting, members of the Government stated that social partnership is the way forward. Last night, the Government’s philosophy was tried and tested and obviously it did not bring the results the Government wanted."

Then he says that the Government didn't seek the agreement of those who count (is he talking about himself here rather than the workers, employers and other citizens who are being asked to take this pain?): "Instead of setting out a clear recovery strategy and seeking to win popular support from those who count in the country, the Government, from its analysis and proposals, pursued a strategy of denial, delay, obfuscation and what eventually amounted to secret negotiations in respect of which all the Members elected to this House by the people were left in the dark."


And he criticises pandering to the vested interests of the social partners: "Proposals put forward in this Chamber for cuts in spending, pay moderation and public service reform were dismissed and cast aside arrogantly by the Government. Instead of accepting them, Fianna Fáil turned again to its once-tight network of power brokers and vested interests, as it has always done, to give its inept Government some political cover and to make some attempt at credibility."


Enda Kenny sounds too confused for my liking. I like him generally but I think that his lack of clarity of thought is unimpressive and would be extremely detrimental in Government. Gilmore and Bruton between them might be coherent in Government but Kenny as Taoiseach would mess it all up.

Ahern may have come out with impenetrable prose but he was able to say as little as he wanted and to avoid committing himself and his party to unsustainable positions. He knew what he was saying at all times. Cowen may be a bit touchy and is sometimes overly forthright but he is always on message and clear in his thought.

Kenny isn't up to it and Gilmore must know this. Gilmore has to be particularly concerned about Kenny's tendency towards repeated veiled and not so veiled attacks on workers and unions ("interest groups").
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PostSubject: Re: Cowen's twelve hours   Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:23 pm

tonys wrote:
Just heard part of Cowen’s speech last night, off the cuff, telling it like it is.
Well done Brian, lets have lots more of that please.

Perhaps in the Dail would be a good place next time, or on tv. Haven't heard the speech yet, so I won't comment on it.
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PostSubject: Re: Cowen's twelve hours   Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:23 pm

Well, the original 12 hours have passed and FF is rising from the ashes pheonix-like if we care to listen to the usual cheerleaders. Anyone care to mention the first green shoots of economic recovery? And the speeches! As Marvin the robot would say: it's all sooo depressing.

I read on another thread that a Mayo company has come up with an improved energy efficiency product. Fair play to them and more power to their elbow. Hopefully they'll take the social aspect into account and employ some locally talented workers which will inject money into the local economy and act as a catalyst for more devlopment and local economic activity. Hope springs eternal but the usual reality will probably prevail.

On a more amusing note, it's quite propituous how a new business announcemnt coincides with the new and improved govt policy promoting innovation in small entreprises. I suppose it's just another example of the pragmatism of the state party. The problems created are someone elses but allocades go the them alone. I suppose we'll experience a barage of these wee stories like we did during the building boom. Everything's rosy in the dell again. Hurray and Huzzah.

I suppose I can go out now a take out a loan to do my patriotic duty and stimulate the local economy by paying highest prices possible for good and service. Normal service is resumed.
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PostSubject: Re: Cowen's twelve hours   Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:27 pm

Zhou_Enlai wrote:
[The above few posts belong in the mudslinging galleries of p.ie and not here.]
Your opinion on this matter is noted, but speaking only for myself, it will be disregarded.
If someone has a pop at me, I will have a pop back, here or anywhere else.
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PostSubject: Re: Cowen's twelve hours   Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:45 pm

rockyraccoon - The good news stories will always be claimed by whomeve can ge their hands on them. That will never change while we have a clientelist electoral system.

However, Cowen was clear that everything was not rosy in the dell. He said that we are facing a 10-12% drop in living standards over 2 years. He said that unemployment will rise. He said if we succumb to wallowing in the gloom we won't make it out of turbulent waters. He even admitted that future generations may well be less well off than the current generation given the global situation - that is a startling and courageous admission.
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PostSubject: Re: Cowen's twelve hours   Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:45 pm

rockyracoon wrote:
Well, the original 12 hours have passed and FF is rising from the ashes pheonix-like if we care to listen to the usual cheerleaders. Anyone care to mention the first green shoots of economic recovery? And the speeches! As Marvin the robot would say: it's all sooo depressing.

I read on another thread that a Mayo company has come up with an improved energy efficiency product. Fair play to them and more power to their elbow. Hopefully they'll take the social aspect into account and employ some locally talented workers which will inject money into the local economy and act as a catalyst for more devlopment and local economic activity. Hope springs eternal but the usual reality will probably prevail.

On a more amusing note, it's quite propituous how a new business announcemnt coincides with the new and improved govt policy promoting innovation in small entreprises. I suppose it's just another example of the pragmatism of the state party. The problems created are someone elses but allocades go the them alone. I suppose we'll experience a barage of these wee stories like we did during the building boom. Everything's rosy in the dell again. Hurray and Huzzah.

I suppose I can go out now a take out a loan to do my patriotic duty and stimulate the local economy by paying highest prices possible for good and service. Normal service is resumed.
FFS this situation is way past party politics, get over yourselves.
There is a job to do now for the sake of everyone in the country and everyone who can, should just get on with doing it. When it’s all over we can have a spleen venting & moaning convention with a conspiracy workshop on the side.
If you can’t wait that long you always have the European & local elections in June where you can trounce FF, who gives a fuck.

This is not aimed at any individual poster, it's a general comment.
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