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 Pro-Israel, Anti-Zionist

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PostSubject: Pro-Israel, Anti-Zionist   Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:36 pm

cactus flower wrote:
No left winger would line up with an anti-semitic candidate.

This site is filled with your anti-israeli rants, I thought you were a left winger. There might be hope for you yet


Last edited by Kate P on Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:35 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Mod with youngdan's consent)
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PostSubject: Re: Pro-Israel, Anti-Zionist   Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:13 am

That is neither true, nor funny. (no longer applies, since modding, thanks. cf)


Last edited by cactus flower on Thu Feb 05, 2009 1:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Pro-Israel, Anti-Zionist   Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:17 am

You would be wise to substantiate or remove that statement, youngdan.
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PostSubject: Re: Pro-Israel, Anti-Zionist   Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:33 am

johnfás wrote:
You would be wise to substantiate or remove that statement, youngdan.

Maybe if you whispered it to him ...

I'm sure he wasn't serious Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Pro-Israel, Anti-Zionist   Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:36 am

Have we not spent the last few months villifying Israel. Sometimes I just don't understand you. Are you pro-Israel or anti-Israel
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PostSubject: Re: Pro-Israel, Anti-Zionist   Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:17 am

youngdan wrote:
Have we not spent the last few months villifying Israel. Sometimes I just don't understand you. Are you pro-Israel or anti-Israel

Well, I'm pro-Jewish and anti-Zionist - I'm pro-Israel but opposed to its settlement program and its vile treatment of the Palestinians.

Do not use the equation "anti-Israel = anti-Semitic". It is a disgusting co-option of Judaism.
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PostSubject: Re: Pro-Israel, Anti-Zionist   Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:03 am

ibis wrote:
youngdan wrote:
Have we not spent the last few months villifying Israel. Sometimes I just don't understand you. Are you pro-Israel or anti-Israel

Well, I'm pro-Jewish and anti-Zionist - I'm pro-Israel but opposed to its settlement program and its vile treatment of the Palestinians.

Do not use the equation "anti-Israel = anti-Semitic". It is a disgusting co-option of Judaism.

I can well understand a person being pro-Jewish but anti-Zionist like some sects of Jews themselves. But you say that you are pro-Israel and anti-Zionist. That is impossible.
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PostSubject: Re: Pro-Israel, Anti-Zionist   Tue Feb 03, 2009 5:27 pm

youngdan wrote:
ibis wrote:
youngdan wrote:
Have we not spent the last few months villifying Israel. Sometimes I just don't understand you. Are you pro-Israel or anti-Israel

Well, I'm pro-Jewish and anti-Zionist - I'm pro-Israel but opposed to its settlement program and its vile treatment of the Palestinians.

Do not use the equation "anti-Israel = anti-Semitic". It is a disgusting co-option of Judaism.

I can well understand a person being pro-Jewish but anti-Zionist like some sects of Jews themselves. But you say that you are pro-Israel and anti-Zionist. That is impossible.

Well, first, let's deal with your comment on cactus flower - cf is anti-Zionist, not anti-Semitic.

As to me - I believe in Israel's right to exist, to be a Jewish state, to live in peace, to defend themselves from invasion and terrorism. All of those are, I think, pro-Israeli positions. I do not accept the settlement program, the apartheid, the wall, the vile treatment of Palestinians on any other basis than serfdom, the regular cutting off of humanitarian aid, the invasions and destabilisations of neighbouring territories, the undeclared nuclear arsenal, the deliberately cowboy brutality of the targeted killings (in the assassination sense of 'cowboy jobs'). Israel's current problems are of its own making, and it is addressing them (not solving them) in the most brutal and dehumanising manner possible. To hear Israelis saying that violence is the "only solution" to the Palestinian problem is utterly chilling, and undermines the whole reason for the existence of Israel.

So - support for Israel, no support for the current policies of Israel. Simple, really.
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PostSubject: Re: Pro-Israel, Anti-Zionist   Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:34 pm

I will tell you what is simple.

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geu8wAYohJZIEBcJFXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEyMTh1OGthBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMgRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA00wMDJfODY-/SIG=11of12d7a/EXP=1233761152/**http%3a//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

Being pro-Israel and anti-Zionist at the same time is impossible. But you being you will not admit that you misspoke or God forbid you were wrong.

I will take it you are not anti-Zionist and do in fact support the state of Israel.

I do not expect a straight answer
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PostSubject: Re: Pro-Israel, Anti-Zionist   Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:52 pm

youngdan wrote:
I will tell you what is simple.


Being pro-Israel and anti-Zionist at the same time is impossible. But you being you will not admit that you misspoke or God forbid you were wrong.

I will take it you are not anti-Zionist and do in fact support the state of Israel.

I do not expect a straight answer

I see no reason to fit my opinions into your restricted mental schema. Why don't you just say "invalid input - does not compute"?
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PostSubject: Re: Pro-Israel, Anti-Zionist   Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:11 pm

At least you know when to give up.

You can remain the one pro-Israel anti Zionist person on Earth
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PostSubject: Re: Pro-Israel, Anti-Zionist   Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:18 pm

youngdan wrote:
Being pro-Israel and anti-Zionist at the same time is impossible.


An israeli rabbi railing against Zionists
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PostSubject: Re: Pro-Israel, Anti-Zionist   Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:36 pm

He is an orthodox Jew Audi. He is anti-Israel and Anti-Zionist.

Ibis is the only pro-Israel anti-Zionist on the planet

He really does live in a world of his own
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PostSubject: Re: Pro-Israel, Anti-Zionist   Tue Feb 03, 2009 8:12 pm

Orthodox jew ??? I thought they lived in Israel - don't they support it?

What's a Haccidic Jew??
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PostSubject: Re: Pro-Israel, Anti-Zionist   Tue Feb 03, 2009 8:53 pm

No they don't. They believe that God dispersed them into exile and they must await the return of the Messiah before the Promised Land is restored to their control. They view the Zionists as heritics.

http://www.realnews247.com/spec_rpt_jews_against_zionism.htm

Here you see them burning Israeli flags etc. Armadenijad loves these guys.

There is no shortage of anti zionist anti Israel Jews. However there is only one pro-Israel anti Zionist on Earth. That is our very own, one of a kind, Ibis.
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PostSubject: Re: Pro-Israel, Anti-Zionist   Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:07 pm

As I've suffered Peak Wiki lately I can't go to the Encyclopedia so off the top of my head

A Jew is a racial term (Semitic) and religious term (Judaism)
A Zionist is a fella who is a Jew who wants a Nation State of Jews somewhere
An Israeli is a jew who lives in Israel
An Israeli may also be a non-Jew who lives in Israel
A Hassidic Jew is an extremist who is waiting for Jesus still
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PostSubject: Re: Pro-Israel, Anti-Zionist   Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:35 pm

Jew is both religous and racial. It is not necessary to be Jewish to be Zionists and a huge segment of the Christian right believe Israel must exist in order to be destroyed so that they themselves can be raptured.

An Israeli need not be a Jew. He can be anything from a muslim to a hari-krisna.

There are a ton of sects even of the sect that are Hasidic. They all have an important rabbi who they reckon was more right than the other fella. The guys that don't believe in Israel still believe in the promised land and live there. They don't vote or stuff like that and just pray at the Wailing Wall etc.
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PostSubject: Re: Pro-Israel, Anti-Zionist   Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:37 pm

Could I be a Zionist? - Why would I want to be a Zionist ?
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PostSubject: Re: Pro-Israel, Anti-Zionist   Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:46 pm

You would make a perfect zionist Audi.

Just keep away from Ibis as he is a pro-Israel anti Zionist
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PostSubject: Re: Pro-Israel, Anti-Zionist   Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:21 pm

Auditor #9 wrote:
Could I be a Zionist? - Why would I want to be a Zionist ?

Well, originally the term would simply have meant someone who supported a Jewish homeland in Israel, so if you support that, you're already partly a Zionist according to the original meaning of the term - however, it should be rather obvious that there is now a Jewish homeland in Israel. As far as that goes, I don't support the existence of Israel because it's a Jewish homeland - I support it because it's there, and people live in it. Its existence gives it a right to existence, if you see what I mean. Hence I'm pro-Israel, but not pro-Zionist in that respect.

You'd also need to support the idea that all Jews should live in Israel - I don't (I'd lose cousins, friends, and clients!) - and the, er, 'strengthening of the State of Israel'. I'm anti-Zionist on that one.

In modern terms...the Likud party, which dominates Israeli politics the way FF dominates ours (maybe more?), is 'nationalist Zionist'. I have no problem opposing that form of Zionism.

Hopefully that hasn't hurt youngdan's thinkie bits too much.
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PostSubject: Re: Pro-Israel, Anti-Zionist   Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:54 pm

Did you get that Audi. Ibis is sticking to his guns. Pro Israel anti Zionist. He also says he is not pro-Zionist.

He is something else
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PostSubject: Re: Pro-Israel, Anti-Zionist   Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:06 am

ibis wrote:
Auditor #9 wrote:
Could I be a Zionist? - Why would I want to be a Zionist ?

Well, originally the term would simply have meant someone who supported a Jewish homeland in Israel, so if you support that, you're already partly a Zionist according to the original meaning of the term - however, it should be rather obvious that there is now a Jewish homeland in Israel. As far as that goes, I don't support the existence of Israel because it's a Jewish homeland - I support it because it's there, and people live in it. Its existence gives it a right to existence, if you see what I mean. Hence I'm pro-Israel, but not pro-Zionist in that respect.

You'd also need to support the idea that all Jews should live in Israel - I don't (I'd lose cousins, friends, and clients!) - and the, er, 'strengthening of the State of Israel'. I'm anti-Zionist on that one.

In modern terms...the Likud party, which dominates Israeli politics the way FF dominates ours (maybe more?), is 'nationalist Zionist'. I have no problem opposing that form of Zionism.

Hopefully that hasn't hurt youngdan's thinkie bits too much.
Ok .. "pro-Israeli, Anti-Zionist"....

I can see where ibis is coming from when he says he doesn't think that Israelis should be kicked out now that they've snuck in, set up shop, dug the garden and made themselves at home. I also agree with him when he says he doesn't agree with the Israelis building a massive wall and spreading out beyond where they originally were after sneaking in ... and pushing out the Palestinians.....

I don't know about this Zionism however ??? I think though, it might be equivalent to you, me and 4 million others saying they were 'Celts' or of 'Celtic Origin' or some shite and then saying that 2000 years ago they had a homeland next to Barcelona and that they were ready to start going back there to make a home ....

Could it be like me, you and two hundred thousand others deciding that we wanted to set up an Anarchist homeland and that somewhere nice and warm and sunny would be nice - somewhere on the coast of California or in Western Australia and that we would go there gradually and set up camps and then kill anyone who told us to get off the land???

I'd kind of disagree that certain tribes shouldn't aspire to having a homeland. If it interferes with other tribes that's a problem. In many districts of cities, Gay people and Chinese people and others get their own barrio and often they co-exist peacefully in MyTown, whereever that may be.

The difference with the Zionists is that they believe it's their Divine Right to gravitate to Palestine ...

Is that close ??/
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PostSubject: Re: Pro-Israel, Anti-Zionist   Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:24 am

[MOD]Thread split[/MOD]
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PostSubject: Re: Pro-Israel, Anti-Zionist   Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:50 am

Audi. The Zionists were the lads that set up Israel. So saying that you are proIsrael antiZionist is like saying that you are a Chinese Caucasian.

Ibis is the only known example
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PostSubject: Re: Pro-Israel, Anti-Zionist   Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:58 am

youngdan wrote:
Audi. The Zionists were the lads that set up Israel. So saying that you are proIsrael antiZionist is like saying that you are a Chinese Caucasian.

Ibis is the only known example

The Republicans were the lads that set up Ireland...so saying you're pro-Ireland anti-Republican is like saying you're a pro-Israel anti-Zionist.
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