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 Live Webcam in Gaza / White phosphorus bombs / Israel declares Unilateral Ceasefire -Troops pull out

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PostSubject: Re: Live Webcam in Gaza / White phosphorus bombs / Israel declares Unilateral Ceasefire -Troops pull out   Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:49 am

Oh and in case people need more motivation to get those lobbying fingers typing....

Some grisly pictures from Gaza you won't see in the media (warning you'll need a strong stomach).
http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/10156
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PostSubject: Re: Live Webcam in Gaza / White phosphorus bombs / Israel declares Unilateral Ceasefire -Troops pull out   Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:22 am

did anyone notice that the link in the first post was bugged? crashes machines. Where did it come from originally? It open in Window media player and crashed the F*** out of my machine. Admin have broken the link now! Now I definitely avoiding Jaffa oranges!!
nb
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PostSubject: Re: Live Webcam in Gaza / White phosphorus bombs / Israel declares Unilateral Ceasefire -Troops pull out   Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:21 pm

Pax wrote:
EVm, the short answer is Hamas are the elected government of Palestine.

The Palestinian people are amongst the most secular in the middle east.
Hamas does not want an Islamic republic or a Saudi style religious
dictatorship.

The Palestinian people voted for Hamas because they saw that they could
provide public services unlike the quisling, corrupt Fatah.

However, like with the recent banning of arab parties in Israel proper prior to the upcoming elections there, Israel
interferes and attempts a divide and conquer strategy to try and get the
party it wants elected by the Palestinians. This is all profoundly
undemocratic and illegal.

Gaza is surrounded in the North and East and the sea in the West, by a
US client state which receives over $3 billion a year from the US. This is of course
Israel.

And in the South by the US client state of the Mubarak regime which
receives $2 billion a year from the US and jails and shoots union
protesters. Of course Egypt

Was Fatah under Arafat or Arafat himself corrupt? Was Arafat a quisling?
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PostSubject: Re: Live Webcam in Gaza / White phosphorus bombs / Israel declares Unilateral Ceasefire -Troops pull out   Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:37 pm

I know there is an interesting conversation going on there about the history and details of the participants in this conflict so carry on on this thread if ye like, I'll split it out into a new one if the momentum keeps up on that - we could do with a few "Q &A" threads around here to explain what is going on.

From Al Jazeera last night - face to face - a resolute Ban Ki Moon condemns Israeli bombing of UN compound and surely has some weight on his shoulders while Tzipi Livni, Israeli foreign minister mentions ceasefire with a sickening smile on her face that I wish she'd wipe off but it is reported that she and Ehud Olmert are arguing in their cabinet for a ceasefire.

from elainec

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6TX74xaiRs
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PostSubject: Re: Live Webcam in Gaza / White phosphorus bombs / Israel declares Unilateral Ceasefire -Troops pull out   Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:37 pm

Ronald Binge wrote:
Pax wrote:
EVm, the short answer is Hamas are the elected government of Palestine.

The Palestinian people are amongst the most secular in the middle east.
Hamas does not want an Islamic republic or a Saudi style religious
dictatorship.

The Palestinian people voted for Hamas because they saw that they could
provide public services unlike the quisling, corrupt Fatah.

However, like with the recent banning of arab parties in Israel proper prior to the upcoming elections there, Israel
interferes and attempts a divide and conquer strategy to try and get the
party it wants elected by the Palestinians. This is all profoundly
undemocratic and illegal.

Gaza is surrounded in the North and East and the sea in the West, by a
US client state which receives over $3 billion a year from the US. This is of course
Israel.

And in the South by the US client state of the Mubarak regime which
receives $2 billion a year from the US and jails and shoots union
protesters. Of course Egypt

Was Fatah under Arafat or Arafat himself corrupt? Was Arafat a quisling?
I used to think it was a shame the word quisling wasn't used more. I don't think Arafat could be described as a quisling, or Fatah for that matter. Arafat recognised Israel's right to exist from 1988 onwards but he never made life easy for them, or they for him. There are all sorts of allegations of corruption against both Arafat and Fatah more generally. Wikipedia has a section of Arafat's financial skeletons. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yassar_Arafat#Financial_dealings.
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PostSubject: Re: Live Webcam in Gaza / White phosphorus bombs / Israel declares Unilateral Ceasefire -Troops pull out   Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:39 pm

Auditor #9 wrote:

From Al Jazeera last night - face to face - a resolute Ban Ki Moon condemns Israeli bombing of UN compound and surely has some weight on his shoulders while Tzipi Livni, Israeli foreign minister mentions ceasefire with a sickening smile on her face that I wish she'd wipe off but it is reported that she and Ehud Olmert are arguing in their cabinet for a ceasefire.
It's been reported the she was the one that's been pushing for more action the whole time.
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PostSubject: Re: Live Webcam in Gaza / White phosphorus bombs / Israel declares Unilateral Ceasefire -Troops pull out   Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:41 pm

Auditor #9 wrote:
I know there is an interesting conversation going on there about the history and details of the participants in this conflict so carry on on this thread if ye like, I'll split it out into a new one if the momentum keeps up on that - we could do with a few "Q &A" threads around here to explain what is going on.

From Al Jazeera last night - face to face - a resolute Ban Ki Moon condemns Israeli bombing of UN compound and surely has some weight on his shoulders while Tzipi Livni, Israeli foreign minister mentions ceasefire with a sickening smile on her face that I wish she'd wipe off but it is reported that she and Ehud Olmert are arguing in their cabinet for a ceasefire.

from elainec

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6TX74xaiRs


We have this thread Auditor #9 and EVM in which I was trying to provide a much chunkier history of the region and where this all comes from - you would be very welcome to change its name to something clearer and merge any posts you like from here.

Pax's posts on US funding/training of Fatah would be an addition. Is the source sound? Is it definitely not IDF disinformation to spread distrust? Life is so messy.



http://machinenation.forumakers.com/world-politics-and-events-f27/black-september-newly-released-documents-the-build-up-to-war-in-the-middle-east-t1832.htm?highlight=black+september
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PostSubject: Re: Live Webcam in Gaza / White phosphorus bombs / Israel declares Unilateral Ceasefire -Troops pull out   Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:03 pm

905 wrote:
Auditor #9 wrote:
From Al Jazeera last night - face to face - a resolute Ban Ki Moon condemns Israeli bombing of UN compound and surely has some weight on his shoulders while Tzipi Livni, Israeli foreign minister mentions ceasefire with a sickening smile on her face that I wish she'd wipe off but it is reported that she and Ehud Olmert are arguing in their cabinet for a ceasefire.
It's been reported the she was the one that's been pushing for more action the whole time.

Is it only me who takes exception to people's evil grins. That smile on her face was evil - I have words for it like sadistic which shouldn't be said. I remember you opened a thread on her about 6 months or more ago.

Thanks cactus I'll move the other posts later so.
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PostSubject: Re: Live Webcam in Gaza / White phosphorus bombs / Israel declares Unilateral Ceasefire -Troops pull out   Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:10 pm

cactus flower wrote:
Pax's posts on US funding/training of Fatah would be an addition. Is the source sound? Is it definitely not IDF disinformation to spread distrust? Life is so messy.
Why would Israel want to discredit Fatah? Could it possibly be Hamas disinformation?
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PostSubject: Re: Live Webcam in Gaza / White phosphorus bombs / Israel declares Unilateral Ceasefire -Troops pull out   Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:18 pm

905 wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
Pax's posts on US funding/training of Fatah would be an addition. Is the source sound? Is it definitely not IDF disinformation to spread distrust? Life is so messy.
Why would Israel want to discredit Fatah? Could it possibly be Hamas disinformation?

You would have to admit that the Hamas propoganda machine is a lot less sophisticated and has far fewer resources than Israel and the US. Did you read Pax's post?
We know that the US supported Hamas against Fatah, and now Pax says that Fatah has been supported by them against Hamas. Given that in the Iran/Iraq war the US supported both sides and that they had no problem in WWII with Germany, Britain and the USSR slugging hell out of each other, I suppose I should not be surprised.
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PostSubject: Re: Live Webcam in Gaza / White phosphorus bombs / Israel declares Unilateral Ceasefire -Troops pull out   Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:36 pm

cactus flower wrote:
905 wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
Pax's posts on US funding/training of Fatah would be an addition. Is the source sound? Is it definitely not IDF disinformation to spread distrust? Life is so messy.
Why would Israel want to discredit Fatah? Could it possibly be Hamas disinformation?

You would have to admit that the Hamas propoganda machine is a lot less sophisticated and has far fewer resources than Israel and the US. Did you read Pax's post?
We know that the US supported Hamas against Fatah, and now Pax says that Fatah has been supported by them against Hamas. Given that in the Iran/Iraq war the US supported both sides and that they had no problem in WWII with Germany, Britain and the USSR slugging hell out of each other, I suppose I should not be surprised.
Would you admit that they have one and that it is capable of spinning? Either way, Pax's assertions are most likely true. The wiki link he provides cites three sources.
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PostSubject: Re: Live Webcam in Gaza / White phosphorus bombs / Israel declares Unilateral Ceasefire -Troops pull out   Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:49 pm

905 wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
905 wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
Pax's posts on US funding/training of Fatah would be an addition. Is the source sound? Is it definitely not IDF disinformation to spread distrust? Life is so messy.
Why would Israel want to discredit Fatah? Could it possibly be Hamas disinformation?

You would have to admit that the Hamas propoganda machine is a lot less sophisticated and has far fewer resources than Israel and the US. Did you read Pax's post?
We know that the US supported Hamas against Fatah, and now Pax says that Fatah has been supported by them against Hamas. Given that in the Iran/Iraq war the US supported both sides and that they had no problem in WWII with Germany, Britain and the USSR slugging hell out of each other, I suppose I should not be surprised.
Would you admit that they have one and that it is capable of spinning? Either way, Pax's assertions are most likely true. The wiki link he provides cites three sources.


Hamas and the Gazans generally are in at least one way very aware of the media and its power, and that is in terms of the flow of film and photographic images that is coming out of Gaza. The Israelis are clearly keen to stop it, but don't seem to be successful. They aren't letting foreign journalists in, but local journalists are feeding the news out constantly and then Al Jazeera and Presstv enables it to go viral on the internet. Hamas has been very unsuccessful in getting an understanding of who they are and what their policies out in the west. I'd have the impression that the Israelis mantra of rockets - terrorists - terrorists - rockets has largely been successful in shaping peoples' perception. Very few people would know they were a functioning elected authority and fewer still would know that they dropped out reference in their manifesto to ending the Israeli State in 2006. Most people I think believe that Hamas broke a ceasefire with a rain of rockets the wreaked destruction on Israel.

Verdict so far:- Hamas - visual images of slaughter - irrefutable and powerful propoganda
Israelis - slick repetitive lies and misrepresentations - very successful in muddying the water enough to get away with it, so far.
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PostSubject: Re: Live Webcam in Gaza / White phosphorus bombs / Israel declares Unilateral Ceasefire -Troops pull out   Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:45 pm

The manifesto was for the election, it doesn't signify a change in policy. They didn't exactly announce they were going to support the idea either.

The Israelis have done much to muddy the waters but Hamas help them along the way by giving them enough ammo. Rockets aimed indiscriminately into Israel are a powerful media tool.
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PostSubject: Re: Live Webcam in Gaza / White phosphorus bombs / Israel declares Unilateral Ceasefire -Troops pull out   Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:50 pm

905 wrote:
The manifesto was for the election, it doesn't signify a change in policy. They didn't exactly announce they were going to support the idea either.

The Israelis have done much to muddy the waters but Hamas help them along the way by giving them enough ammo. Rockets aimed indiscriminately into Israel are a powerful media tool.

On the manifesto, I disagree. A manifesto is a statement of policy. It is consistent with Hamas's willingness to talk about 10-15 year cease fires, that I thought we agreed was a de facto recognition of the State of Israel (pre '67 boundaries).
I agree strongly that rockets aimed at civilian areas are both wrong and counter productive. This kind of action seems to be an act of frustration or else is imagined to "put pressure" on the Israeli government" - the only pressure in reality is that it divides the Palestinian and Israelis on the ground and gives an excuse for disproportionate retaliation.

However no matter how misguided and wrong, the rockets, that have killed a very small number of people in comparison with the thousands of Palestinians killed since 2000, are absolutely no excuse for the actions of the Israelis.
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PostSubject: Re: Live Webcam in Gaza / White phosphorus bombs / Israel declares Unilateral Ceasefire -Troops pull out   Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:26 pm

cactus flower wrote:
905 wrote:
The manifesto was for the election, it doesn't signify a change in policy. They didn't exactly announce they were going to support the idea either.

The Israelis have done much to muddy the waters but Hamas help them along the way by giving them enough ammo. Rockets aimed indiscriminately into Israel are a powerful media tool.

On the manifesto, I disagree. A manifesto is a statement of policy. It is consistent with Hamas's willingness to talk about 10-15 year cease fires, that I thought we agreed was a de facto recognition of the State of Israel (pre '67 boundaries).
I agree strongly that rockets aimed at civilian areas are both wrong and counter productive. This kind of action seems to be an act of frustration or else is imagined to "put pressure" on the Israeli government" - the only pressure in reality is that it divides the Palestinian and Israelis on the ground and gives an excuse for disproportionate retaliation.

However no matter how misguided and wrong, the rockets, that have killed a very small number of people in comparison with the thousands of Palestinians killed since 2000, are absolutely no excuse for the actions of the Israelis.
If they put it intheir election manifesto that they recognised Israel then I would take it more seriously. As it is, my opinion is that it represents (or represented) a step in the right direction.

I don't remember agreeing that talk of a 10-15 year ceasefire amounted to de facto recognition of Israel. The ceasefire has been interpreted to mean that by some, others take the view that it (like it's 2008 counterpart that we're all so fond of discussing) would serve merely as a breathing space for more violence, which is what hudna historically means apparantly. Anyway, the issue's not clear-cut. When the 10 year hudna was first proposed the Hamas leader allegedly stated that it did not mean they recognised Israel. Can't confim that though, and he's dead anyway (wiki).

The rocket attacks happen to coincide with Hamas' policy of targetting civilians, as seen in the suicide bombings a few years ago. As an instrument of terror the rocket attacks are quite effective, as instruments of death thankfully not so much. I don't think the death numbers from rocket attacks matter so much, it's their intention and their indiscriminate nature that mark amas out as war criminals.

But as you quite rightly point out, nothing at all justifies the actions of the Israelis.
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PostSubject: Re: Live Webcam in Gaza / White phosphorus bombs / Israel declares Unilateral Ceasefire -Troops pull out   Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:58 am

Here she is at a US press conference. Pretty interesting way the chairman has of chairing ...

The Gaza blockade gets questioned around 9 mins ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYSM2v28EEk
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PostSubject: Re: Live Webcam in Gaza / White phosphorus bombs / Israel declares Unilateral Ceasefire -Troops pull out   Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:07 pm

According to Sky News Hamas have stated that they will not respect a suggested unilateral Israeli ceasefire.
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PostSubject: Re: Live Webcam in Gaza / White phosphorus bombs / Israel declares Unilateral Ceasefire -Troops pull out   Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:14 pm

Ronald Binge wrote:
According to Sky News Hamas have stated that they will not respect a suggested unilateral Israeli ceasefire.

Should they ?

Tzipi Livni mentioned being bullied by Hamas in one of those TV pieces above ...
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PostSubject: Re: Live Webcam in Gaza / White phosphorus bombs / Israel declares Unilateral Ceasefire -Troops pull out   Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:22 pm

You'd want to ask Hamas that.
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PostSubject: Re: Live Webcam in Gaza / White phosphorus bombs / Israel declares Unilateral Ceasefire -Troops pull out   Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:29 pm

I suppose the group Hamas has the support of the people of Gaza so in effect the people of Gaza are probably seen as Hamas by Israel ...

If you ask the Gazans in they want to support Hamas they say yes - if they were asked now if they'd support a ceasefire what would they say do you think ?
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PostSubject: Re: Live Webcam in Gaza / White phosphorus bombs / Israel declares Unilateral Ceasefire -Troops pull out   Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:10 pm

The following is based on what I've heard in television reports:

Hamas are divided. The people on the ground are willing to negotiate on terms for a ceasefire asap. The exiled leadership have four preconditions

Immediate ceasefire
Withdrawal of Israeli troops
Opening of Rafah and all crossings and
End to the seige of Gaza.

As far as I can see, Eygypt, who are recipients of billions of US aid, and who are now believed by Hamas to be complicit in allowing Israel to proceed, are not talking to Hamas.

It seems very likely that anything they come up with will be turned down by
Hamas, as was the UN proposal.

Haaretz.com reports on the proposal for a unilateral Israeli cease fire and on the Hamas position here:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1056134.html

A unilateral cease fire by Israel would mean that there was no peace agreement, no terms and they could go back in at any time.
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PostSubject: Re: Live Webcam in Gaza / White phosphorus bombs / Israel declares Unilateral Ceasefire -Troops pull out   Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:01 pm

One aspect I'd like to add is the economic relationship between the EU and Israel and forthcoming votes and decisions to be made at EU level. (although maybe a new thread should be created on this aspect?)


The EU is Israel's largest trading partner and is a massive source of revenue for Israel.

However an essential part of the "Euro-Mediterranean Association Agreement" giving Israel preferential access to the EU market is a commitment to respect "human rights and democratic principles".

Specifically, Article Two of the agreement states: "Relations between the parties, as well as all the provisions of the agreement itself, shall be based on respect for human rights and democratic
principles, which guides their internal and international policy and constitutes an essential element of this Agreement
."

Now, in no way shape or form is Israel fulfilling this.


Furthermore, the Israel-EU Association Agreement is due to be voted on in the European Parliament shortly.

This new agreement would afford Israel access to EU funding programmes which in many cases are only granted to full EU member states!


Now, how could the EU, not only continue the current preferred nation trading status, but also give our taxes to the Israelis to spend on further massacres, enclosure of Palestinians and locking up of
Palestinian politicians?
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PostSubject: Re: Live Webcam in Gaza / White phosphorus bombs / Israel declares Unilateral Ceasefire -Troops pull out   Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:18 pm

The EU position is very confused. The Czech Presidency made a statement on the first day of the IDF assault that Israel was acting in self-defence. This was immediately cut across by the French and others who condemned the Israelis. There was a half-arsed peace dash by Sarkozy, in what capacity I'm not quite sure, that was welcomed by Hamas but got nowhere with the US / Israel. Progress on the agreement you refer to I think was announced as stalled, due to the Israeli action. Since then, there has been a statement condemning the attacks on UNWRA sites.

The US has progressively pushed Britain and France interests out of the middle east through a succession of regime changes, "liberation" wars and "self defence" actions by the Israelis.

Perhaps deepening EU involvement in Gaza was yet another reason for the war.

Undoubtedly, this will be used to argue the case for Lisbon and for building up an EU armed force. Edo has made that case here already. A look at the history of the EU powers in the Middle East would not give me any confidence that it would act any more favourably, honestly or peaceably as an armed power than has the United States.

It looks as if Israel will declare a unilateral cease fire today, before Obama gets off the inaugural train.

About 600 people were reported to be at the boycott-demonstration in Dublin today.
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PostSubject: Re: Live Webcam in Gaza / White phosphorus bombs / Israel declares Unilateral Ceasefire -Troops pull out   Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:12 am

Pax wrote:
One aspect I'd like to add is the economic relationship between the EU and Israel and forthcoming votes and decisions to be made at EU level. (although maybe a new thread should be created on this aspect?)


The EU is Israel's largest trading partner and is a massive source of revenue for Israel.

However an essential part of the "Euro-Mediterranean Association Agreement" giving Israel preferential access to the EU market is a commitment to respect "human rights and democratic principles".

Specifically, Article Two of the agreement states: "Relations between the parties, as well as all the provisions of the agreement itself, shall be based on respect for human rights and democratic
principles, which guides their internal and international policy and constitutes an essential element of this Agreement
."

Now, in no way shape or form is Israel fulfilling this.


Furthermore, the Israel-EU Association Agreement is due to be voted on in the European Parliament shortly.

This new agreement would afford Israel access to EU funding programmes which in many cases are only granted to full EU member states!


Now, how could the EU, not only continue the current preferred nation trading status, but also give our taxes to the Israelis to spend on further massacres, enclosure of Palestinians and locking up of
Palestinian politicians?


Just got this Pax:

Dear Ms Flower,

Thank you for your recent communication concerning the situation in Gaza. This issue, and the broader issue of the situation in the Middle East, has been of concern to the Joint Oireachtas Committee on European Affairs for some time.

I think you will be interested to know that Deputy Timmy Dooley and I put down a Motion, which was subsequently passed, at the European Affairs Committee on Thursday 15th January 2009. The text of the Motion was as follows:

Motion to the Joint Oireachtas Committee on European Affairs

“That this Committee invite either the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights or the United Nations Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights on Palestinian territories occupied since 1967, or their representative and the European Union Commissioner for External Relations and European Neighbourhood Policy and any other persons which this Committee deems necessary, as quickly as possible, with a view to assisting this Committee in determining whether or not as a matter of fact there has been a breach of Article Two of the EU / Israel EURO-MEDITERRANEAN Association Agreement of 1995.


Article 2

Relations between the Parties, as well as all the provisions of the Agreement itself, shall be based on respect for human rights and democratic principles, which guides their internal and international policy and constitutes an essential element of this Agreement”.

Michael Mulcahy T.D.
Timmy Dooley T.D.


The Committee, as I understand it, will now undertake a series of hearings, as to whether or not there has been a breach of Article Two of the EU/Israel Association Agreement of 1995.

Again, thank you for your communication.

Yours sincerely,

MICHAEL MULCAHY, T.D.
Dáil Éireann
Leinster House
Kildare Street
Dublin 2
Tel: 6183000 / 6761319
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PostSubject: Re: Live Webcam in Gaza / White phosphorus bombs / Israel declares Unilateral Ceasefire -Troops pull out   Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:15 am

Michael Mulcahy is a decent man. He is one of the few I'm prepared to listen to when they come canvassing at election time.
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