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 9 Women Occupy Raytheon in Derry - Police Agree To Investigate Raytheon

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PostSubject: 9 Women Occupy Raytheon in Derry - Police Agree To Investigate Raytheon   Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:17 am

I initially posted news of this on one of the Gaza threads. It most assuredly deserves a thread of its own.

The nine courageous women entered the Raytheon building at around 2.30pm this afternoon as part of a DAWC (Derry Anti War Coalition) action. They then made their way upstairs and chained themselves together.

In the meantime lots of supporters gathered outside to protest and to await the arrival of the PSNI. Two the five men arrested outside the building were members of the original Raytheon 9 who were acquitted last year after being charged for occupying the Raytheon building and decommissioning some of their computers. LINK.

The nine women today, Helen Deery, Sharon Meenan, Betty Doherty, Diana King, Goretti Horgan,
Róisín Barton, Julia Tor Rojo, Jackie McKenna and Róisín Kelly achieved some unbelievable results as can be seen from the following press release. Before I get to that, I'd like to express my own support for this action and my thanks to everyone involved. We need to see more of this - a lot more.

PRESS RELEASE


Statement issued by the women as they entered the Raytheon premises:

DERRY ANTI WAR COALITION

FROM NINE WOMEN WHO HAVE CHAINED THEMSELVES INSIDE THE RAYTHEON BUILDING AT SPRINGTOWN TODAY (JANUARY 12th) AT 2.30PM

We have taken this action in an effort to prevent or delay war crimes being committed by the Israeli Defence Forces in Gaza with the use of Raytheon weapons and to try to force a criminal investigation into the activities of the Raytheon company in Derry and elsewhere which, we believe, amount to complicity in war crimes.

Like millions of others, we have watched television pictures of innocent people being slaughtered since the Israeli assault on Gaza began on December 27th, and have wanted it to stop. But nobody with the power to make it stop seems willing to intervene to do so.

Lawyers and international human rights organisations have declared that the Israeli bombing and shelling of Gaza involves war crimes. The
bombing of a UN-sponsored school on January 6th, killing at least 40 civilians, including children, has merely been the worst of these war
crimes.

Raytheon is one of Israel’s main suppliers of the weapons being used in the attacks on Gaza. The company is either aware or doesn’t care that its weapons are being used to commit war crimes.

Raytheon is aiding and abetting Israel in committing these war crimes against the people of Gaza. We are trying to stop them.

We hope that we encourage others to take similar action against other Raytheon plants and against arms companies generally.

We call for a criminal investigation into the activities of the Raytheon company in Ireland, Britain and elsewhere with a view to the prosecution of Raytheon executives for complicity in war crimes.

We call on all political parties, community groups, trades unions, churches and others in the Derry area to say clearly that we do not want a company involved in war crimes in our town and to declare that Raytheon should get out.

STATEMENT ISSUED BY THE WOMEN IMMEDIATELY AFTER LEAVING THE BUILDING AT SIX PM.

A deputation from the Derry Anti-War Coalition is to meet with senior PSNI officers this week to present evidence which, they say, warrants a criminal investigation into the Raytheon company.

The coalition says that an agreement by the PSNI to formally consider the evidence was one of the reasons for ending the protest at Raytheon in which nine women chained themselves together inside the building.

A spokeswoman for the nine said: "While inside the building, we had a series of discussions with the Foyle commander of the PSNI, Chris Yates. As a result of these discussions between ourselves and Chief Inspector Yates, it was agreed that he would accept delivery of our
dossier of evidence and arrange that it be studied to determine whether a basis exists for criminal charges against Raytheon.

We thank all those who gathered outside Raytheon to support our action. The Derry Anti War Coalition again calls on the local political parties to join us in demanding that Raytheon get out of Derry.

ends


Last edited by Hermes on Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:47 am; edited 3 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: 9 Women Occupy Raytheon in Derry - Police Agree To Investigate Raytheon   Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:20 am

Formally agreeing to consider the evidence does not constitute an investigation, Hermes.
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PostSubject: Re: 9 Women Occupy Raytheon in Derry - Police Agree To Investigate Raytheon   Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:23 am

I guessing there has to be a clear case that Israel has committed war crimes before Raytheon can be charged with complicity ot whatever. Is it so?
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PostSubject: Re: 9 Women Occupy Raytheon in Derry - Police Agree To Investigate Raytheon   Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:24 am

Investigation for what?
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PostSubject: Re: 9 Women Occupy Raytheon in Derry - Police Agree To Investigate Raytheon   Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:32 am

Kate P wrote:
Formally agreeing to consider the evidence does not constitute an investigation, Hermes.

Yes it does. Whether it's a formal investigation or whether it will lead to one is another matter. Anytime one considers evidence, one is engaged in an investigation.
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PostSubject: Re: 9 Women Occupy Raytheon in Derry - Police Agree To Investigate Raytheon   Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:40 am

Might I suggest to these worthy ladies that they consider joining our glorious republic next time the option comes up for a vote??

No massive arms manufacturing going on down 'ere, as far as I am aware.

The UK, US and Israel are at the forefront of nasty new schemes involving more and more hi tech ways in which to deprive their enemies of life. Paying taxes in these jurisdictions is the best possible way to ensure this continues to be funded.

For example, the husband used to fund the anti war coalition in the UK to the tune of 10 quid a month. However, his taxes, going to the British Exchequer, were well over a grand a month, and we had no way of determining how these were spent.

I don't know what % of taxes go to what is laughably called "defence" in the UK, but I'd bet it is at least 10%
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PostSubject: Re: 9 Women Occupy Raytheon in Derry - Police Agree To Investigate Raytheon   Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:42 am

905 wrote:
I guessing there has to be a clear case that Israel has committed war crimes before Raytheon can be charged with complicity ot whatever. Is it so?

I think it will be a matter for the police to decide what charges must be brought, if any, once they have considered the evidence given to them (and possibly dig up some of their own).

The acquittal of the original Raytheon activists of criminal damage charges is an interesting factor that must have bearing on the PSNI's and the authorities' dilemma. A PR nightmare to be sure, at the very least.
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PostSubject: Re: 9 Women Occupy Raytheon in Derry - Police Agree To Investigate Raytheon   Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:45 am

What is it they may be investigated for?
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PostSubject: Re: 9 Women Occupy Raytheon in Derry - Police Agree To Investigate Raytheon   Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:49 am

cookiemonster wrote:
What is it they may be investigated for?

That they are complicit in the unlawful slaughter of innocent civillians. That they are complicit in the unlawful destruction of essential infrastructures. And possibly a host of other crimes.
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PostSubject: Re: 9 Women Occupy Raytheon in Derry - Police Agree To Investigate Raytheon   Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:49 am

If Raytheon, whoever they are, have been involved in something illegal, throw the directors in jail, if not, throw the chain gang in jail and whichever group it is, leave them there.
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PostSubject: Re: 9 Women Occupy Raytheon in Derry - Police Agree To Investigate Raytheon   Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:50 am

Hermes wrote:
cookiemonster wrote:
What is it they may be investigated for?

That they are complicit in the unlawful slaughter of innocent civillians. That they are complicit in the unlawful destruction of essential infrastructures. And possibly a host of other crimes.

One presumed they manufacture/export "dual use" goods?
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PostSubject: Re: 9 Women Occupy Raytheon in Derry - Police Agree To Investigate Raytheon   Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:54 am

cookiemonster wrote:
Hermes wrote:
cookiemonster wrote:
What is it they may be investigated for?

That they are complicit in the unlawful slaughter of innocent civillians. That they are complicit in the unlawful destruction of essential infrastructures. And possibly a host of other crimes.

One presumed they manufacture/export "dual use" goods?

Or one may consider the fact that they manufacture parts for single purpose hellfire missiles etc.
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PostSubject: Re: 9 Women Occupy Raytheon in Derry - Police Agree To Investigate Raytheon   Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:55 am

Hermes wrote:

Or one may consider the fact that they manufacture parts for single purpose hellfire missiles etc.

Legally, presumably. What the people they sell them to do with them is a different matter. So you want the police to investigate them for doing something legally?

The correct place to lobby is Parliament, not the local police station or the courts.


Last edited by johnfás on Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: 9 Women Occupy Raytheon in Derry - Police Agree To Investigate Raytheon   Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:18 am

Hermes wrote:
cookiemonster wrote:
Hermes wrote:
cookiemonster wrote:
What is it they may be investigated for?

That they are complicit in the unlawful slaughter of innocent civillians. That they are complicit in the unlawful destruction of essential infrastructures. And possibly a host of other crimes.

One presumed they manufacture/export "dual use" goods?

Or one may consider the fact that they manufacture parts for single purpose hellfire missiles etc.
With the best will in the world no group can be allowed to interfere with the legal business of any company or person, if you wish the law to be changed then set about that by all means, but no group has a democratic mandate to take the law into their own hands.
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PostSubject: Re: 9 Women Occupy Raytheon in Derry - Police Agree To Investigate Raytheon   Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:45 am

Johnfás wrote:
Legally, presumably. What the people they sell them to do with them is
a different matter. So you want the police to investigate them for
doing something legally?

The correct place to lobby is Parliament, not the local police station or the courts.
Tonys wrote:
With the best will in the world no group can be allowed to interfere
with the legal business of any company or person, if you wish the law
to be changed then set about that by all means, but no group has a
democratic mandate to take the law into their own hands.

In regard to these opinions and questions, I think it best if Eamonn McCann and other members of DAWC shed some light. The following video was made just as the defendants from the last action at Raytheon went on trial.


It should be noted that the action that mandated the above trial involved the destruction of Raytheon's property and an interruption of their business. It was a more aggressive action than the action carried out by the nine women yesterday. And a jury found them innocent. That is to say, the jury found their actions to be lawful, they believed that the destruction of Raytheon's property and subsequent occupation could have saved lives and they decided that it is perfectly lawful to put a halt to Raytheon's operation. We can banter back and forth with our opinions until the cows come home about such actions, but the core fact of the matter is that the law recognises such actions to be justified and lawful.

http://www.raytheon9.org/
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PostSubject: Re: 9 Women Occupy Raytheon in Derry - Police Agree To Investigate Raytheon   Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:17 pm

Hermes wrote:
Johnfás wrote:
Legally, presumably. What the people they sell them to do with them is
a different matter. So you want the police to investigate them for
doing something legally?

The correct place to lobby is Parliament, not the local police station or the courts.
Tonys wrote:
With the best will in the world no group can be allowed to interfere
with the legal business of any company or person, if you wish the law
to be changed then set about that by all means, but no group has a
democratic mandate to take the law into their own hands.

In regard to these opinions and questions, I think it best if Eamonn McCann and other members of DAWC shed some light. The following video was made just as the defendants from the last action at Raytheon went on trial.


It should be noted that the action that mandated the above trial involved the destruction of Raytheon's property and an interruption of their business. It was a more aggressive action than the action carried out by the nine women yesterday. And a jury found them innocent. That is to say, the jury found their actions to be lawful, they believed that the destruction of Raytheon's property and subsequent occupation could have saved lives and they decided that it is perfectly lawful to put a halt to Raytheon's operation. We can banter back and forth with our opinions until the cows come home about such actions, but the core fact of the matter is that the law recognises such actions to be justified and lawful.

http://www.raytheon9.org/
Fair enough, thanks for that.
I have to say though, as a comment on the western world in general and jurors in particular, we’re a dopy shower of buggers.
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PostSubject: Re: 9 Women Occupy Raytheon in Derry - Police Agree To Investigate Raytheon   Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:31 pm

Even if everything Eamonn McCann says is true it does not give him a "legal entitlement" (sic) to take the actions which they did. Raytheon is a legally constructed company selling products legally. There is certainly a moral argument that they are culpable for the use to which their products are put given that they most likely know in advance. However, they have not broken any law and thus there is absolutely no basis for wasting police time in "investigating" them. The correct course of action is to lobby the legislature to amend the law. Even if you got this to court it would have to be thrown out because the court would have no basis on which to hear it.

I am strongly against the course of action taken by Israel. However, the policy being undertaken by the protestors will merely waste the resources of the PSNI who have no basis on which to forward any files or bring any charges. It is a wasted effort. By all means picket Raytheon or parliament or even obstruct Raytheon's business but be aware it is those who obstruct them who break the law, not Raytheon.

Oh and the guy at the end who says that Hezbollah are not terrorists must be some joker.
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PostSubject: Re: 9 Women Occupy Raytheon in Derry - Police Agree To Investigate Raytheon   Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:43 am

Johnfás wrote:
Even if everything Eamonn McCann says is true it does not give him a
"legal entitlement" (sic) to take the actions which they did. Raytheon
is a legally constructed company selling products legally. There is
certainly a moral argument that they are culpable for the use to which
their products are put given that they most likely know in advance.
However, they have not broken any law and thus there is absolutely no
basis for wasting police time in "investigating" them. The correct
course of action is to lobby the legislature to amend the law. Even if
you got this to court it would have to be thrown out because the court
would have no basis on which to hear it.

Lawful excuse is very much a legal entitlement and moreso it is not an example of "taking the law" into one's hands. It is an action of vindicating and indeed, upholding the law.

"Legally constructed company," is a strawman argument. Would this "legally constructed company" be entitled to equip the Keane gang in Limerick with some hardware?

Israel is a nation that has been in flagrant violation of international law for decades and UN resolutions. To equip them with the tools to facilitate their lawbreaking is to be a party to their crimes. And all of that is before we need to consider the bombing of hospitals and UN schools etc.

There is no need whatsoever to amend the law. It is more than adequate to deal with this. The problem is in getting the authorities to do their jobs, that's where the lobbying comes into it. Although that's mostly a wasted effort too as it's the politicos who've knobbled the justice system. Still, it facilitates the gathering of names of traitors for when the reckoning occurs.

Johnfás wrote:
I am strongly against the course of action taken by Israel. However,
the policy being undertaken by the protestors will merely waste the
resources of the PSNI who have no basis on which to forward any files
or bring any charges. It is a wasted effort. By all means picket
Raytheon or parliament or even obstruct Raytheon's business but be
aware it is those who obstruct them who break the law, not Raytheon.

I am not a party in the actions of the DAWC but am aware that they face the very same obstacles we have to deal with down here. So rather than putting words into their mouths, I'll speak from my own experience.

I've seen Gardaí, some of them senior, lie under oath whilst giving evidence. For example, it was claimed that no complaints had been made to the Gardaí, and thus there was no reason to investigate the happenings at Shannon. I know, from witnessing it, that complaints have been continuosly made from the onset of the war in Afghanistan. I've seen lie after lie, excuse after excuse, as to why no investigation whatsoever has ever been undertaken at Shannon, short of the Gardaí accepting assurances from a flight crew via a radio, that nothing untoward was going on. I've seen the game of pass the parcel between the government and the Gardaí, where the Government claim that it is the duty and the right of the Gardaí to investigate complaints. And yet, only recently, the very same Government has announced that it will facilitate the investigation of complaints. Lying bastards! Each and every move so steeped in blatant deceit and hypocrisy that the self contradiction is visible even to the deliberately blind.

Again, the Raytheon activists broke no laws whatsoever, when they decommissioned Raytheons property and obstructed them. We could argue the stupidity and gullibility of jurors. But you more than most, recognise the fact that it is the judge who allows the defence and outlines the tests. Innocent and very law-abiding, conscientious and decent citizens.
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PostSubject: Re: 9 Women Occupy Raytheon in Derry - Police Agree To Investigate Raytheon   Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:47 am

johnfás wrote:
Even if everything Eamonn McCann says is true it does not give him a "legal entitlement" (sic) to take the actions which they did. Raytheon is a legally constructed company selling products legally. There is certainly a moral argument that they are culpable for the use to which their products are put given that they most likely know in advance. However, they have not broken any law and thus there is absolutely no basis for wasting police time in "investigating" them. The correct course of action is to lobby the legislature to amend the law. Even if you got this to court it would have to be thrown out because the court would have no basis on which to hear it.

I am strongly against the course of action taken by Israel. However, the policy being undertaken by the protestors will merely waste the resources of the PSNI who have no basis on which to forward any files or bring any charges. It is a wasted effort. By all means picket Raytheon or parliament or even obstruct Raytheon's business but be aware it is those who obstruct them who break the law, not Raytheon.

Oh and the guy at the end who says that Hezbollah are not terrorists must be some joker.

Would you have told McCann that in the Bogside in August '69?

Would you have called for the arrest of those women who returned from Belfast in the seventies with condoms in their possession?

It's good you have respect for the law but sometimes laws are worth breaking in order to have them reformed. Mc Cann's original protest at the Raytheon site turned out to be a great idea. Nobody got hurt and we got to see a VDU hit the ground from 20ft without watching Brainiac on Sky 1.
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PostSubject: Re: 9 Women Occupy Raytheon in Derry - Police Agree To Investigate Raytheon   Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:51 am

Hermes wrote:
Would this "legally constructed company" be entitled to equip the Keane gang in Limerick with some hardware?

However vulgar, yes they would provided they did so within the confines of the law such as Irish law regarding the licencing of weapons and firearms. Obviously the Keane gang would not fulfil these requirements so they would not in actuality, but technical they can sell their products to whoever they want to provided it is legallydone.

Quote :
Israel is a nation that has been in flagrant violation of international law for decades and UN resolutions. To equip them with the tools to facilitate their lawbreaking is to be a party to their crimes. And all of that is before we need to consider the bombing of hospitals and UN schools etc.

The first statement is indeed the case but the latter is a personal value judgement which could not form the basis of any argument in a national court against a company which is legally supplying their products to an organisation, regardless of what that organisation then does with those products.

Quote :
There is no need whatsoever to amend the law. It is more than adequate to deal with this. The problem is in getting the authorities to do their jobs, that's where the lobbying comes into it. Although that's mostly a wasted effort too as it's the politicos who've knobbled the justice system. Still, it facilitates the gathering of names of traitors for when the reckoning occurs.

It obviously isn't because what you actually want is a law instigated by the UK Parliament which bans the production of certain items or at least limits their sale in certain circumstances broad enough to include the one under discussion.

Quote :
I've seen Gardaí, some of them senior, lie under oath whilst giving evidence. For example, it was claimed that no complaints had been made to the Gardaí, and thus there was no reason to investigate the happenings at Shannon. I know, from witnessing it, that complaints have been continuosly made from the onset of the war in Afghanistan. I've seen lie after lie, excuse after excuse, as to why no investigation whatsoever has ever been undertaken at Shannon, short of the Gardaí accepting assurances from a flight crew via a radio, that nothing untoward was going on. I've seen the game of pass the parcel between the government and the Gardaí, where the Government claim that it is the duty and the right of the Gardaí to investigate complaints. And yet, only recently, the very same Government has announced that it will facilitate the investigation of complaints. Lying bastards! Each and every move so steeped in blatant deceit and hypocrisy that the self contradiction is visible even to the deliberately blind.

This may well be the case but it has no relevance as to whether or not Raytheon, a company incorporated in the UK has breached UK law which is the basis on which any action against them would have to be taken.

Quote :
Again, the Raytheon activists broke no laws whatsoever, when they decommissioned Raytheons property and obstructed them. We could argue the stupidity and gullibility of jurors. But you more than most, recognise that fact that it is the judge who allows the defence and outlines the tests. Innocent and very law-abiding, conscientious and decent citizens.

I will not prejudge any trial but it is a trespass to enter private property without permission.
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PostSubject: Re: 9 Women Occupy Raytheon in Derry - Police Agree To Investigate Raytheon   Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:56 am

SeathrúnCeitinn wrote:

Would you have called for the arrest of those women who returned from Belfast in the seventies with condoms in their possession?

I'd have told them to bring a Constitutional challenge to the law governing contraception on the basis that it invaded their right to privacy, as Mrs McGee (unfortunate name given the circumstance) did. I would then have encouraged them to stand for political office to gain popular mandate for their point of view.

Recourse by the State, within the guidelines of the law, is the natural consequence of a breach of the law. Anyone who breaches the law does so knowing of the consequences and surely takes them into account prior to their actions. I was not even alive when the women were bringing condoms down from the North, though my parents did used to get threatening phonecalls from certain Catholic Organisations owing to their involvement in the IFPA. However, I doubt the Statutory instrument which outlawed the sale of condoms actually had the provision of arrest contained within it. Beyond that those women didn't even break the law in that it was the sale rather than the possession of condoms which was illegal.

If one has a problem with the law their proper avenue is the legislature and the executive, not the judiciary who can only implement the law as it stands. This company is not breaking UK law so it is a complete waste of time and resources, both of which are scarce, in attempting to get the PSNI to investigate it. By all means break in, trespass, get arrest, martyr yourself in the name of the cause in order to get publicity which you can then use to put pressure on the legislature but don't expect the sympathy of the legal system which exists to maintain order within society when you do so.
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PostSubject: Re: 9 Women Occupy Raytheon in Derry - Police Agree To Investigate Raytheon   Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:06 am

Johnfás wrote:
However vulgar, yes they would provided they did so within the confines
of the law such as Irish law regarding the licencing of weapons and
firearms. Obviously the Keane gang would not fulfil these requirements
so they would not in actuality, but technical they can sell their
products to whoever they want to provided it is legallydone.

That goes for everone on the planet. As long as you act within the confines of the law, you can do as you will. Getting back to the Keanes: Raytheon would be breaking the law if they sold weaponry to the Keanes.

Johnfás wrote:
The first statement is indeed the case but the latter is a personal
value judgement which could not form the basis of any argument in a
national court against a company which is legally supplying their
products to an organisation, regardless of what that organisation then
does with those products.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Is my belief that it is a crime to aid someone to break the law a fantasy, or is it my belief that Israel has no right to violate the Geneva Conventions and that it doesn't have the right to wilfully bomb the property of the UN, that is mistaken?

Johnfás wrote:
This may well be the case but it has no relevance as to whether or not
Raytheon, a company incorporated in the UK has breached UK law which is
the basis on which any action against them would have to be taken.

I wasn't suggesting that it had any relevance to Raytheon. It was in answer to your comments about lobbying parliament and your comments about NVDA (non violent direct action).

Johnfás wrote:
I will not prejudge any trial but it is a trespass to enter private property without permission.

Lawful excuse negates the crime of trespass too. And that's the lesser of all the empowerments, or duties, of ordinary citizens. For example, some very good law came from Nuremberg.
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PostSubject: Re: 9 Women Occupy Raytheon in Derry - Police Agree To Investigate Raytheon   Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:04 am

The nine ladies and other members of the DAWC have met with Chris Yates and have given him a dossier containing what they allege as being evidence of Raytheon's complicity in war crimes.

Derry Journal wrote:
A spokesperson for the DAWC claimed: "Supplying the weapons that are used in a war crime is a crime in itself. We hold Raytheon responsible for supplying the weapons used by Israel in the murder of civilians in Lebanon and Gaza, as well as by the US and UK governments in the illegal wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

"We believe that a prima facie case that Raytheon is complicit in the commission of war crimes was established in the Raytheon Nine trial in Belfast last year. Their defence and ultimate acquittal by the jury, rested on the contention that they had not committed the crime of criminal damage as they were acting in the course of preventing a greater crime, namely the supply by Raytheon of weapons and supporting technology used in the commission of war crimes by Israel in Lebanon. The same is true today in Gaza and Raytheon should be put on trial for its crimes," the spokesperson added.

LINK
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