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 Metro North: The Pros and Cons

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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:02 pm

I'm not sure I'd agree that Dublin is one of the worst planned cities. You will find that the UK at least provides stiff competition whereas most American cities have vestigial public transport at best.

I'm also amazed when discussing passenger numbers that no-one has mentioned DCU. They're putting up a new building every minute out there, and Dublin Bus doesn't really cut the mustard; the route is very congested at peak times.

Swords alone is huge, and Malahide is worth considering too, according to users of my acquaintance, the Doorsh is standing room only in the mornings leaving Malahide and there's no park and ride there either. It is noticeable at 5 in the evening how much more congested the northbound platform at Pearse is....

Having said all of that, I really don't know why they don't run a Daniel Day from the existing Stephens green terminus out to the Airport and on to Swords and possibly Skerries, Lusk, Balbriggan. It would be much cheaper. You could also route it to cross the niffy Liffey at Heuston......
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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:06 pm

expat girl wrote:
I'm not sure I'd agree that Dublin is one of the worst planned cities. You will find that the UK at least provides stiff competition whereas most American cities have vestigial public transport at best.

I'm also amazed when discussing passenger numbers that no-one has mentioned DCU. They're putting up a new building every minute out there, and Dublin Bus doesn't really cut the mustard; the route is very congested at peak times.

Swords alone is huge, and Malahide is worth considering too, according to users of my acquaintance, the Doorsh is standing room only in the mornings leaving Malahide and there's no park and ride there either. It is noticeable at 5 in the evening how much more congested the northbound platform at Pearse is....

Having said all of that, I really don't know why they don't run a Daniel Day from the existing Stephens green terminus out to the Airport and on to Swords and possibly Skerries, Lusk, Balbriggan. It would be much cheaper. You could also route it to cross the niffy Liffey at Heuston......

I NEVER consider the UK and the US as examples of intelligent planning. I am talking about Europe. Sometimes I view the UK, when seen on a map, as a gigantic shield preventing any intelligence from elsewhere, particularly Europe, getting into Ireland. I am not saying Europeans have the answers to everything and there is plenty to fault in Europe. But on public transport, I consider both the UK and the US as failures.
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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:18 pm

hahaha you're right!
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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:28 pm

Slim Buddha wrote:
In most European cities, public policy requirements (the necessity for an efficient mass transit system) beat the private property concerns of those who have to make way for such an infrastructural development. But then again, in most European countries, planning is done years in advance and NOT subject to the brown-envelope fuelled desires of a few unscrupulous minor politicos. The fact remains that Ireland is a country where a car is as necessary to exist as a pair of lungs. I cannot see that changing since a seismic shift in thinking is needed as are the legal tools to implement such drastic change.

The problem with transport problems is that they don't exist in a vacuum. We don't have a society here, we have cliques of animals who'll cheerfully tear each other apart at the drinking hole.

The Besserwissers who are convinced one group knows better than everyone else what a community needs - whether it's the council, the county manager, the NRA, the Department of whatever, the councillors as a whole, the single-issue community activists, the conservationists, An Taisce... They are the class who don't trust the people. And maybe they're right sometimes.

Take the people out of it and you're left with the systems, the zonings, the procedures for consultation, the price of oil, the CPOs, the QBCs, the planning regulations, the flood plains, Transport 21, the demise of the old tram system, regulation, de-regulation, the EIS (or lack thereof), the CBA (ditto), the odd illegal dump getting in the way. They are the systems that aren't trusted by the people - and maybe they're right more of the time.

Take the systems out and you're left with the lack of trust that underpins everything that happens in this fair country because laws are not for any of us and there's always someone, somewhere who'll help you side-step the agreed way of doing things, whether it's the backhander, the promise of a vote, political pull or plain orneriness that says we won't be dictated to by the council, the government, the Brits, Europe (the New Brits), our mothers or the guy telling us where to park our car at the concert because someone is always, always out to get us and it's up to us to put our interests first. And anyway, we're worth it.

Then you can add in...
Councillors on the take
Councillors hamstrung by the desire for a vote to the extent they will keep making the short-term, parish pump pleasing decisions
Councillors who won't meet the needs of the locals because they've some other dozen agendas.

That's why the country is in the state it's in. It's our own damn fault.
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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:42 pm

I think there is a somewhat uncynical trust in the powers of European planning here..... why do the Italians have many different words for "bribe"?? A bustarella is one that appears in a brown envelope, apparently.

You may be right about the German/Dutch speaking nations and Scandinavians, but I am not sure I'd go much further than that when applauding the lack of European corruption.

Europe also is blessed with much higher population densities than we have here. That makes public transport more viable (the Brits, however, have no excuse south of the Tebay Gorge
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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:45 pm

Great post, Kate P.

expat girl, i agree, it is almost all down to densities. People will walk about ten-fifteen minutes max to a bus or train stop and will wait a maximum of ten minutes. Beautiful leafy Drumcondra with its walled All Hallows type institutions and its semidetached housing with long back gardens simply can't produce enough users to make ten minute frequency public transport viable without massive subventions.

Try increasing the density there and the neighbours will appeal and win their appeal backed by multiple Ahern signed letters.

Bike and car sharing would be the economic options with a number of subidised bus corridors if we have the money.
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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:16 am

cactus flower wrote:
Great post, Kate P.

expat girl, i agree, it is almost all down to densities. People will walk about ten-fifteen minutes max to a bus or train stop and will wait a maximum of ten minutes. Beautiful leafy Drumcondra with its walled All Hallows type institutions and its semidetached housing with long back gardens simply can't produce enough users to make ten minute frequency public transport viable without massive subventions.

Try increasing the density there and the neighbours will appeal and win their appeal backed by multiple Ahern signed letters.

Bike and car sharing would be the economic options with a number of subidised bus corridors if we have the money.

The problem in a nutshell, cactus. Nimbyism
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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:24 pm

The Metro is needed and should be completed. This should not even come into question. I am a southsider so it wont effect me personally. That does not mean that I want it scraped. If it works as well as the Luas, that would be brillant.
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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:28 pm

cactus flower wrote:
Split out from the Eastern Bypass Thread
http://machinenation.forumakers.com/local-and-regional-f21/dublin-bay-motorway-returns-t1799.htm
--Audi


eoinmn wrote:
Lunacy.
We're starved of public transport in Dublin but we'll piss away a few billion on a motorway already served by the M50 and a network of city streets.
Yes, I know there is congestion, but building more roads won't solve that.

CF, what have you got against Metro North?

Hello eoinmn, Internet Exp is shutting down for me at the moment so I can't provide links, but some of the issues are

1. planning - no cost benefit analysis or comparison with other options
2. enormous cost - 5-10 billion est plus 2 billion est. disruption
3. devastation of Stephens Green
4. lack of capacity - not much more than a Luas, not a true Metro
5. route - the route goes through Drumcondra, North City, which has an incredibly low population density. One stop has only a couple of hundred houses in walking distance - all of these houses are in cycling distance of the City Centre. The route is not viable so they are trying to make it so by overdevelopment of Swords.
6. Starting point - How many people need to go from Stephens Green to the airport? If it was going to be built it should link from Heuston.

What would you do for public transport if you had 10 billion - I'll be back to make some suggestions
[mod]snipped - please read the charter and post in line with it, personal insults are not acceptable. If you reedit your post again to include the insult action will be taken[/mod]
there have IN FACT, been 2 (that's TWO) CBAs done for MN.
One for the RPA and one for the Oireachtas Transport Committee.

SECOND, the capital cost of MN is approx 3 Billion. not the 5-10 that you dreamed up and is used by as disinformation by the anti rail lobby. The mortgage type repayments will total to approx 5 billion.

Thirdly, by whose definition is MN not a 'PROPER' metro. Yours obviously. More tripe from our transport 'expert'.
MN will have a capacity of 20,000 passengers per direction per hour, compared to 5,000 for LUAS.

Still, thanks for the entertainment. A long search would have to be made to find a more uninformed tract of guff anywhere.
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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:53 pm

allah wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
Split out from the Eastern Bypass Thread
http://machinenation.forumakers.com/local-and-regional-f21/dublin-bay-motorway-returns-t1799.htm
--Audi


eoinmn wrote:
Lunacy.
We're starved of public transport in Dublin but we'll piss away a few billion on a motorway already served by the M50 and a network of city streets.
Yes, I know there is congestion, but building more roads won't solve that.

CF, what have you got against Metro North?

Hello eoinmn, Internet Exp is shutting down for me at the moment so I can't provide links, but some of the issues are

1. planning - no cost benefit analysis or comparison with other options
2. enormous cost - 5-10 billion est plus 2 billion est. disruption
3. devastation of Stephens Green
4. lack of capacity - not much more than a Luas, not a true Metro
5. route - the route goes through Drumcondra, North City, which has an incredibly low population density. One stop has only a couple of hundred houses in walking distance - all of these houses are in cycling distance of the City Centre. The route is not viable so they are trying to make it so by overdevelopment of Swords.
6. Starting point - How many people need to go from Stephens Green to the airport? If it was going to be built it should link from Heuston.

What would you do for public transport if you had 10 billion - I'll be back to make some suggestions
[mod]snipped - please read the charter and post in line with it, personal insults are not acceptable. If you reedit your post again to include the insult action will be taken[/mod]
there have IN FACT, been 2 (that's TWO) CBAs done for MN.
One for the RPA and one for the Oireachtas Transport Committee.

SECOND, the capital cost of MN is approx 3 Billion. not the 5-10 that you dreamed up and is used by as disinformation by the anti rail lobby. The mortgage type repayments will total to approx 5 billion.

Thirdly, by whose definition is MN not a 'PROPER' metro. Yours obviously. More tripe from our transport 'expert'.
MN will have a capacity of 20,000 passengers per direction per hour, compared to 5,000 for LUAS.

Still, thanks for the entertainment. A long search would have to be made to find a more uninformed tract of guff anywhere.

Your tea is in the signing in thread. You're welcome, but I suggest you contact an Admin about changing your name, which would be felt as offensive by many people.

You obviously have a passion for this project: why not make the case for it in a positive way: people on this site have been known to change their minds when provided sound argument and evidence.

I don't know why your arguing about the costing, as you give 5 billion yourself not including 2 billion disruption. This type of project with tunnelling is notoriously subject to cost and damages overrun.[/

But it looks like this is going on the back burner, yes, and will stay there unless it passes a cost benefit analysis proposed by the Minister next year.[quote]By Ciaran Byrne and Paul Melia

Quote :
Tuesday October 07 2008

DUBLIN'S €3.7bn Metro North rail system is going ahead -- but Transport Minister Noel Dempsey can't say when.

Mr Dempsey yesterday qualified his backing for the huge project saying the system would only be built if it came though a stringent cost-benefit analysis next year.

The minister also raised the spectre of lengthy delays, saying the Transport 21 plan would "be an even better idea in three or four years when we move out of recession".

He admitted money was not there for other transport schemes included in the National Development Plan (NDP). Some projects could now face postponement or the chop.

"The procedure is, and always was, that once the tenders are there, there would be negotiations and the final price would be decided at that stage," he said. "It will get its usual appraisal, value for money, cost benefit analysis and if it meets those, it will go ahead.

"That's the way it was, that's the way it is, and that's the way it will be."

The minister was speaking at the launch of airline CityJet's new €6m hangar at Dublin airport, a project he said underlined the need to plan for the future.

But he appeared to hedge his backing of Dublin's future transport needs, as speculation continues that Metro North from St Stephen's Green to Swords could fall victim to the State's collapsing finances.

In August, before the full extent of the credit crisis became apparent, Finance Minister Brian Lenihan met with the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) -- which is overseeing the project -- to say Metro North would go ahead.

Informed sources said the Government wanted to send out the message that the project would go ahead so the four bidders would submit the best price.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/metro-north-is-still-on-track-but-theres-no-time-of-arrival-1491664.html

I have a busy day, but I'll be back to respond to your other points in due course.
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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:35 pm

My take from the Neetherlands.

Lets go back to basics here, very very basic. The proble with dublins transport system is the number of cars that cause 2 hours tailbacks. Having seen Amsterdams, Rotterdams (1 week each not enough but) and their general attitude in the country, jams or tailbacks as compaired to the Irish version do not exist. This is simply because everyone cycles everywhere.

Think about how easy it is to cycle for 20 minutes (at 10 km per hour = 3.3 km) in a devoted lane seperated from the road and consider that these paths are essentially endless (though not always segregrated).

Also look at the train system (NS). There are trains from Alkmaar to Amsterdam (various stops available: 30 minutes travel time approx 60 km) every 15 minutes at peak times. Why does the towns in Dublin or Wickow or Kildare have these?

Metro north will not take many cars off our roads compared with those solutions!
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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:14 pm

A lot of people walk into work in Dublin - How much would it cost to make pedestrians crossings safer and higher priority, widen footpaths and dole our free teas and coffees to walkers?

To make Dublin safe for cycles x 2 things are needed

- require fitting of additional mirrors on HGVs (about 250 euro each)
- reduce maximum speeds of 30 kph max ( by traffic calming ).

Then take VAT off bikes.

Then buses and trains. - real time info on arrival times, accessible buses and covered bus stops.

Integrated ticketing, that gives free Sunday transport for people with weekly or monthly season tickets, so people can go to parks and museums.
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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:19 pm

The two things you mention above are true cactus... however, as a daily cyclist there are an awful lot more things that that which need to be done to make Dublin safe for cycling.

- Proper cycling education programmes in schools for children.
- Requirement to go on a cycling course to be eligible for the employee bike scheme introduced in the last budget.
- More awareness of cyclists to be introduced into the driving test.
- Avertising campaign for motorists to advise of how to drive around cyclists.
- Vast improvement to cycling lanes and enforcement of the idea that cycle lanes are for cyclists, not for undertaking other motorists, not for parking lorries, not for joggers, but for people cycling bikes.

I take my life in my hands every day on the bike, as do many others. This is by virtue both of other cyclists and idiotic drivers/parkers.
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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:28 pm

johnfás wrote:
The two things you mention above are true cactus... however, as a daily cyclist there are an awful lot more things that that which need to be done to make Dublin safe for cycling.

- Proper cycling education programmes in schools for children.
- Requirement to go on a cycling course to be eligible for the employee bike scheme introduced in the last budget.
- More awareness of cyclists to be introduced into the driving test.
- Avertising campaign for motorists to advise of how to drive around cyclists.
- Vast improvement to cycling lanes and enforcement of the idea that cycle lanes are for cyclists, not for undertaking other motorists, not for parking lorries, not for joggers, but for people cycling bikes.

I take my life in my hands every day on the bike, as do many others. This is by virtue both of other cyclists and idiotic drivers/parkers.

I wouldn't want to come to blows over it, but I've looked at european efforts on cycling, and the best-managed shared road options are even better than the best cycle lane systems, as they don't have the same problems at junctions. Agree about a test for cyclists - theory and practise. Well done to you for cycling.
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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:41 pm

This is the kind of nonsense you deal with on a daily basis. I have to say the worst is when a delivery van decides it is just going to spontaneously mount a curb when you are cycling on its inside... that has happened to me on several occasions.









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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:46 pm

Great pictures - are they your own?

It would bear out that cyclists are better off taking over the whole road Twisted Evil
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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:48 pm

Not mine, there are several websites dedicated to the state of Dublin's cycle lanes. I don't mind so much cycling on a road where there isn't a cycle lane, it is where there is a cycle lane which is being abused by everyone that I get annoyed. I'm fairly lucky in that I can cut through housing roads for most of my journey into the city centre and then I have a bus lane for the most of the latter part but it is nonetheless a daily experience.
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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:45 am

Slim Buddha wrote:
I mean that Dublin is one of the worst planned cities in Europe. .
Whereas Cork, Limerick and Galway are shining example of proper planning.
And just because someone doesn't live in BAC currently doesn't mean they can't be well acquainted with the northside, Slim Buddha.
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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:02 am

Regarding cycling,
I've read a report (by my younger brother!) prepared for the DoT on what it would cost to increase the number of cyclist commuters in Ireland from 2% to 10% by 2020.

The report estimates it would cost 2 billion.
But..
We'd make that 2 billion back through lower congestion, better health and increased tourism. Interestingly, the lowering of carbon emission fines under Kyoto would be negligible.

I'm afraid I only have a paper version of the report.
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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:08 am

Problem is you can't cut a ribbon beside a bicycle and the politicians like to cut a ribbon and get their name on the plaque.

Going to need the waterproofs on in the morning alien
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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:32 am

[quote="cactus flower"]
allah wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
Split out from the Eastern Bypass Thread
http://machinenation.forumakers.com/local-and-regional-f21/dublin-bay-motorway-returns-t1799.htm
--Audi


eoinmn wrote:
Lunacy.
We're starved of public transport in Dublin but we'll piss away a few billion on a motorway already served by the M50 and a network of city streets.
Yes, I know there is congestion, but building more roads won't solve that.

CF, what have you got against Metro North?

Hello eoinmn, Internet Exp is shutting down for me at the moment so I can't provide links, but some of the issues are

1. planning - no cost benefit analysis or comparison with other options
2. enormous cost - 5-10 billion est plus 2 billion est. disruption
3. devastation of Stephens Green
4. lack of capacity - not much more than a Luas, not a true Metro
5. route - the route goes through Drumcondra, North City, which has an incredibly low population density. One stop has only a couple of hundred houses in walking distance - all of these houses are in cycling distance of the City Centre. The route is not viable so they are trying to make it so by overdevelopment of Swords.
6. Starting point - How many people need to go from Stephens Green to the airport? If it was going to be built it should link from Heuston.

What would you do for public transport if you had 10 billion - I'll be back to make some suggestions
[mod]snipped - please read the charter and post in line with it, personal insults are not acceptable. If you reedit your post again to include the insult action will be taken[/mod]
there have IN FACT, been 2 (that's TWO) CBAs done for MN.
One for the RPA and one for the Oireachtas Transport Committee.

SECOND, the capital cost of MN is approx 3 Billion. not the 5-10 that you dreamed up and is used by as disinformation by the anti rail lobby. The mortgage type repayments will total to approx 5 billion.

Thirdly, by whose definition is MN not a 'PROPER' metro. Yours obviously. More tripe from our transport 'expert'.
MN will have a capacity of 20,000 passengers per direction per hour, compared to 5,000 for LUAS.

Still, thanks for the entertainment. A long search would have to be made to find a more uninformed tract of guff anywhere.

Your tea is in the signing in thread. You're welcome, but I suggest you contact an Admin about changing your name, which would be felt as offensive by many people.

You obviously have a passion for this project: why not make the case for it in a positive way: people on this site have been known to change their minds when provided sound argument and evidence.

I don't know why your arguing about the costing, as you give 5 billion yourself not including 2 billion disruption. This type of project with tunnelling is notoriously subject to cost and damages overrun.[/

But it looks like this is going on the back burner, yes, and will stay there unless it passes a cost benefit analysis proposed by the Minister next year.
Quote :
By Ciaran Byrne and Paul Melia

Quote :
Tuesday October 07 2008

DUBLIN'S €3.7bn Metro North rail system is going ahead -- but Transport Minister Noel Dempsey can't say when.

Mr Dempsey yesterday qualified his backing for the huge project saying the system would only be built if it came though a stringent cost-benefit analysis next year.

The minister also raised the spectre of lengthy delays, saying the Transport 21 plan would "be an even better idea in three or four years when we move out of recession".

He admitted money was not there for other transport schemes included in the National Development Plan (NDP). Some projects could now face postponement or the chop.

"The procedure is, and always was, that once the tenders are there, there would be negotiations and the final price would be decided at that stage," he said. "It will get its usual appraisal, value for money, cost benefit analysis and if it meets those, it will go ahead.

"That's the way it was, that's the way it is, and that's the way it will be."

The minister was speaking at the launch of airline CityJet's new €6m hangar at Dublin airport, a project he said underlined the need to plan for the future.

But he appeared to hedge his backing of Dublin's future transport needs, as speculation continues that Metro North from St Stephen's Green to Swords could fall victim to the State's collapsing finances.

In August, before the full extent of the credit crisis became apparent, Finance Minister Brian Lenihan met with the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) -- which is overseeing the project -- to say Metro North would go ahead.

Informed sources said the Government wanted to send out the message that the project would go ahead so the four bidders would submit the best price.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/metro-north-is-still-on-track-but-theres-no-time-of-arrival-1491664.html

I have a busy day, but I'll be back to respond to your other points in due course.

do you believe all the speculation you read in the paper?
or just the stuff you want to believe?

inaccurate and lazy jounalism. like the BP's complaint about cut and cover in O'C St, draining the liffey etc.
MN will go ahead early next year.
you cannot rely on what jounalists garbled understandings.
I'm done with this subject btw.
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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:28 am

eoinmn wrote:
Slim Buddha wrote:
I mean that Dublin is one of the worst planned cities in Europe. .
Whereas Cork, Limerick and Galway are shining example of proper planning.
And just because someone doesn't live in BAC currently doesn't mean they can't be well acquainted with the northside, Slim Buddha.

I agree. Planning in Ireland as a whole is dire and utterly lacking in vision. When a mechanism for corruption, the notorious Section 4 of old, enables wholly unqualified people like councillors overturn the experts decisions, especially regarding unsuitable residential building land, you will obviously end up with the chronic shambles we now have. I do understand that non-northsiders who have spent time in Dublin can have an understanding of the place and see beyond the stereotypes.
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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:57 am

While planners can't be overturned on planning itself, they can still be overturned on zoning because zoning is a reserved function of the councillors. It's not rosy in the garden now either, despite the demise of Section 4.
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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:07 am

Kate P wrote:
While planners can't be overturned on planning itself, they can still be overturned on zoning because zoning is a reserved function of the councillors. It's not rosy in the garden now either, despite the demise of Section 4.

THat is what I meant to say, Kate. The machinery which enables corruption is still in place. The apparatus for palm-greasing is still in place.
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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:10 am

I think if the people of Ireland had a greater vision, we'd see an improvement in planning and transport. As it is, we're a short-sighted selfish nimbyish bunch.
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