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 Metro North: The Pros and Cons

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PostSubject: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:42 pm

Split out from the Eastern Bypass Thread
http://machinenation.forumakers.com/local-and-regional-f21/dublin-bay-motorway-returns-t1799.htm
--Audi


eoinmn wrote:
Lunacy.
We're starved of public transport in Dublin but we'll piss away a few billion on a motorway already served by the M50 and a network of city streets.
Yes, I know there is congestion, but building more roads won't solve that.

CF, what have you got against Metro North?

Hello eoinmn, Internet Exp is shutting down for me at the moment so I can't provide links, but some of the issues are

1. planning - no cost benefit analysis or comparison with other options
2. enormous cost - 5-10 billion est plus 2 billion est. disruption
3. devastation of Stephens Green
4. lack of capacity - not much more than a Luas, not a true Metro
5. route - the route goes through Drumcondra, North City, which has an incredibly low population density. One stop has only a couple of hundred houses in walking distance - all of these houses are in cycling distance of the City Centre. The route is not viable so they are trying to make it so by overdevelopment of Swords.
6. Starting point - How many people need to go from Stephens Green to the airport? If it was going to be built it should link from Heuston.

What would you do for public transport if you had 10 billion - I'll be back to make some suggestions


Last edited by Ard-Taoiseach on Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:23 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : to sort out the title.)
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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:48 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:51 pm

cactus flower wrote:

1. planning - no cost benefit analysis or comparison with other options
2. enormous cost - 5-10 billion est plus 2 billion est. disruption
3. devastation of Stephens Green

Agree. In particular with number 3.
Quote :

4. lack of capacity - not much more than a Luas, not a true Metro
5. route - the route goes through Drumcondra, North City, which has an incredibly low population density. One stop has only a couple of hundred houses in walking distance - all of these houses are in cycling distance of the City Centre. The route is not viable so they are trying to make it so by overdevelopment of Swords.

Agree.


Quote :
6. Starting point - How many people need to go from Stephens Green to the airport? If it was going to be built it should link from Heuston.

Probably quite alot actually between it and O'Connell St. However, Stephens Green are both served really well by the Aircoach so why replicate a service which already exists? I got the Aircoach on Dawson St mid afternoon a few weeks ago and got to the airport in 15 minutes. I have alot of interaction with people coming and going from Dublin and I rarely, if ever, hear of complaints that it is too difficult to get into town from the airport. The Aircoach runs a good service and Dublin Bus have a good service into town too - one of which runs through the Port Tunnel and then down the Quays to Heuston.
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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:10 pm

cactus flower wrote:
1. planning - no cost benefit analysis or comparison with other options
Fair enough.
If a CBA analysis was done and shown to be favourable would you then back the Metro North?
I'm pretty cynical about the way these CBAs are done anyway.

cactus flower wrote:
2. enormous cost - 5-10 billion est plus 2 billion est. disruption
A CBA would take that into account... if it was done.
cactus flower wrote:
3. devastation of Stephens Green
Temporary. I know Dubs like to make these things out to be bigger than they are, but like the disruption of Abbey Street they'll have forgotten about once the line is in place and the Green reinstated.
cactus flower wrote:
4. lack of capacity - not much more than a Luas, not a true Metro
Ok. Would you support a real underground metro then?
cactus flower wrote:
5. route - the route goes through Drumcondra, North City, which has an incredibly low population density. One stop has only a couple of hundred houses in walking distance - all of these houses are in cycling distance of the City Centre. The route is not viable so they are trying to make it so by overdevelopment of Swords.
Drumcondra is cycling distance to the city centre, true. But not within cycling distance of the airport and other places Metro North may bring them. How could the Metro go from O'Connell Street to the airport by going through somewhere higher density than Drumcondra.
cactus flower wrote:
6. Starting point - How many people need to go from Stephens Green to the airport?
Yes. Aircoach seems to think so.
cactus flower wrote:
If it was going to be built it should link from Heuston.

What would you do for public transport if you had 10 billion - I'll be back to make some suggestions
They can get a Luas from Hesuton to Abbey Street and get the Metro from O'Connell Street. Or at some stage it should be possible to get the DART I think from Hesuton to Stephen's Green?
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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:58 pm

Quote :
="eoinmn"]
cactus flower wrote:
1. planning - no cost benefit analysis or comparison with other options
Fair enough.
If a CBA analysis was done and shown to be favourable would yAou then back the Metro North?
I'm pretty cynical about the way these CBAs are done anyway.
I agree that they are often not as objective as they should be, but even a bad CBA is better than none. In this case, I'm convinced that it wouldn't have stacked up for some of the reasons below.

Quote :
cactus flower wrote:
2. enormous cost - 5-10 billion est plus 2 billion est. disruption
A CBA would take that into account... if it was done.
Exactly.

Quote :
cactus flower wrote:
3. devastation of Stephens Green
Temporary. I know Dubs like to make these things out to be bigger than they are, but like the disruption of Abbey Street they'll have forgotten about once the line is in place and the Green reinstated.
Not a Dub, but SG belongs to us all. What is proposed for the Green is a terminal desecration.

Quote :
cactus flower wrote:
4. lack of capacity - not much more than a Luas, not a true Metro
Ok. Would you support a real underground metro then?
Low population densities are a real problem for viability of a metro in Dublin. The route makes no sense for a metro. If a CBA proved me wrong for an alternative metro linking existing rail and tram lines, I would back it. Not wrecking the Green - not neccessary.

Quote :
cactus flower wrote:
5. route - the route goes through Drumcondra, North City, which has an incredibly low population density. One stop has only a couple of hundred houses in walking distance - all of these houses are in cycling distance of the City Centre. The route is not viable so they are trying to make it so by overdevelopment of Swords.
Drumcondra is cycling distance to the city centre, true. But not within cycling distance of the airport and other places Metro North may bring them. How could the Metro go from O'Connell Street to the airport by going through somewhere higher density than Drumcondra.
Precisely my point. A metro is not required. QBSs will do fine.

Quote :
cactus flower wrote:
6. Starting point - How many people need to go from Stephens Green to the airport?
Yes. Aircoach seems to think so.
Aircoach seems to be catering for that need.
Quote :
cactus flower wrote:

Quote :
If it was going to be built it should link from Heuston.
They can get a Luas from Hesuton to Abbey Street and get the Metro from O'Connell Street. Or at some stage it should be possible to get the DART I think from Hesuton to Stephen's Green?

These people are dragging suitcases. They would be far more likely to say "to hell with the train, I'll get a coach direct from Carlow to the airport door".
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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:20 pm

cactus flower wrote:

Hello eoinmn, Internet Exp is shutting down for me at the moment so I can't provide links...

Sorry in advance, brief off-topicness...

You were aware of the recent security lapses? You've probably already done it, but important you stick the patches on, and way better to use Firefox or Google Chrome anyway...
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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:33 pm

cactus flower wrote:
I agree that they are often not as objective as they should be, but even a bad CBA is better than none. In this case, I'm convinced that it wouldn't have stacked up for some of the reasons below.
OK.


cactus flower wrote:
Not a Dub, but Stephen's Green belongs to us all.What is proposed for the Green is a terminal desecration.
My understanding is they will rip up roads, railings, trees, the arch, maybe even the duck pond. Build an underground station, and re-instate the roads, railings, trees, arch and pond. All of which is do-able.
Long term, I can't see the problem.

cactus flower wrote:
Low population densities are a real problem for viability of a metro in Dublin. The route makes no sense for a metro. If a CBA proved me wrong for an alternative metro linking existing rail and tram lines, I would back it. Not wrecking the Green - not neccessary.
At some stage Dublin has to start building high density in the city centre including Drumcondra.
But this won't become attractive to people unless there is the facilities like playgrounds and quality public transport in place.
Maybe Metro North isn't the solution needed but certainly something better than what is there now.
cactus flower wrote:
Quote :
How could the Metro go from O'Connell Street to the airport by going through somewhere higher density than Drumcondra
Precisely my point. A metro is not required. QBSs will do fine.
The QBCs in Ireland could be a lot better. Higher frequency, with time displays, etc.
cactus flower wrote:
Quote :
cactus flower wrote:
6. Starting point - How many people need to go from Stephens Green to the airport?
Yes. Aircoach seems to think so.
Aircoach seems to be catering for that need.
Not well in my opinion.
They don't even use proper buses. They use long distance coaches unsuitable for cross-town journeys and unsuitable for wheelchair users.
And they charge a massive €12 return! They are only tolerated because people have such a low opinion of CIE (who charge €10 on AirLink and about €3? on slow services).
cactus flower wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
Quote :
If it was going to be built it should link from Heuston.
They can get a Luas from Hesuton to Abbey Street and get the Metro from O'Connell Street. Or at some stage it should be possible to get the DART I think from Hesuton to Stephen's Green?
These people are dragging suitcases. They would be far more likely to say "to hell with the train, I'll get a coach direct from Carlow to the airport door".
If you were going to build a Metro North from Heuston it would still end up going through Drumcondra or the zero density Phoenix Park.
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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:44 pm

I am always amazed at people who are not from the northside of Dublin "deciding" that "using a CBA, xyz is not feasible for the northside" or some such judgement. OK, I am in the legal game so the following is somewhat biased but anything of real interest or practicality in Dublin is on the Northside.

The Four Courts (Architecture and Law)
The Kings Inns (Architecture and Law)
The Law Society (Law)
Busaras (Architecture and Transport)
The Customs House (Government and Architecture)
The Phoenix Park (Public Amenity)
The Botanic Gardens (Public Amenity)
Bull Island (Ornithology and Public Amenity)
Dublin Airport (Transport and Means of Escape)
St. Anne's Park (Public Amenity)
Alexandra Road Basin (Premier point of nations imports)
Croke Park (Nations premier sports stadium)
Connolly Station (Train station for transport to islands second city)

This is by no means a complete list but explains why the Northside needs proper infrastructure and can do without outsiders deciding whether it deserves it or not. This gombeen kleptocracy we call a government have wasted billions on nonsense elsewhere, but the deserving cause of Northside infrastructure must not be forgotten.
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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:49 pm




http://www.archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=6888

Discussion on archiseek. One point made is it is not extendable, but a looped terminus. Another is permanent damage to Green.
A project architect contributes to the discussion.

For 2 billion I reckon we could have a world class QBS/bus system for the City, plus cycle and pedestrian improvements.
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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:53 pm

Slim Buddha wrote:
I am always amazed at people who are not from the northside of Dublin "deciding" that "using a CBA, xyz is not feasible for the northside" or some such judgement. OK, I am in the legal game so the following is somewhat biased but anything of real interest or practicality in Dublin is on the Northside.

The Four Courts (Architecture and Law)
The Kings Inns (Architecture and Law)
The Law Society (Law)
Busaras (Architecture and Transport)
The Customs House (Government and Architecture)
The Phoenix Park (Public Amenity)
The Botanic Gardens (Public Amenity)
Bull Island (Ornithology and Public Amenity)
Dublin Airport (Transport and Means of Escape)
St. Anne's Park (Public Amenity)
Alexandra Road Basin (Premier point of nations imports)
Croke Park (Nations premier sports stadium)
Connolly Station (Train station for transport to islands second city)

This is by no means a complete list but explains why the Northside needs proper infrastructure and can do without outsiders deciding whether it deserves it or not. This gombeen kleptocracy we call a government have wasted billions on nonsense elsewhere, but the deserving cause of Northside infrastructure must not be forgotten.

I don't think anyone is attempting to deprive the Northside of infratructure but merely what is the most efficient and cost effective way of doing that. You might note that Connelly Station, the Customs House, Busáras, The Phoenix Park and the Four Courts are all linked by the Luas and both the Kings Inn and the Law Society are within walking distance.

In regard to the point about the Aircoach... it is expensive but subsidising it heavily would be alot more cost effective than the Metro.
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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:57 pm



Slim Buddha wrote:
I am always amazed at people who are not from the northside of Dublin "deciding" that "using a CBA, xyz is not feasible for the northside" or some such judgement. OK, I am in the legal game so the following is somewhat biased but anything of real interest or practicality in Dublin is on the Northside.

The Four Courts (Architecture and Law)
The Kings Inns (Architecture and Law)
The Law Society (Law)
Busaras (Architecture and Transport)
The Customs House (Government and Architecture)
The Phoenix Park (Public Amenity)
The Botanic Gardens (Public Amenity)
Bull Island (Ornithology and Public Amenity)
Dublin Airport (Transport and Means of Escape)
St. Anne's Park (Public Amenity)
Alexandra Road Basin (Premier point of nations imports)
Croke Park (Nations premier sports stadium)
Connolly Station (Train station for transport to islands second city)

This is by no means a complete list but explains why the Northside needs proper infrastructure and can do without outsiders deciding whether it deserves it or not. This gombeen kleptocracy we call a government have wasted billions on nonsense elsewhere, but the deserving cause of Northside infrastructure must not be forgotten.

How many of these facilities are within walking distance of Metro North ? (btw I know and love this area well).
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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:15 pm

johnfás wrote:
Slim Buddha wrote:
I am always amazed at people who are not from the northside of Dublin "deciding" that "using a CBA, xyz is not feasible for the northside" or some such judgement. OK, I am in the legal game so the following is somewhat biased but anything of real interest or practicality in Dublin is on the Northside.

The Four Courts (Architecture and Law)
The Kings Inns (Architecture and Law)
The Law Society (Law)
Busaras (Architecture and Transport)
The Customs House (Government and Architecture)
The Phoenix Park (Public Amenity)
The Botanic Gardens (Public Amenity)
Bull Island (Ornithology and Public Amenity)
Dublin Airport (Transport and Means of Escape)
St. Anne's Park (Public Amenity)
Alexandra Road Basin (Premier point of nations imports)
Croke Park (Nations premier sports stadium)
Connolly Station (Train station for transport to islands second city)

This is by no means a complete list but explains why the Northside needs proper infrastructure and can do without outsiders deciding whether it deserves it or not. This gombeen kleptocracy we call a government have wasted billions on nonsense elsewhere, but the deserving cause of Northside infrastructure must not be forgotten.

I don't think anyone is attempting to deprive the Northside of infratructure but merely what is the most efficient and cost effective way of doing that. You might note that Connelly Station, the Customs House, Busáras, The Phoenix Park and the Four Courts are all linked by the Luas and both the Kings Inn and the Law Society are within walking distance.

In regard to the point about the Aircoach... it is expensive but subsidising it heavily would be alot more cost effective than the Metro.

It was certainly not efficient or cost-effective putting the LUAS on the Southside. Costs ballooned out of control (the cynic in me says it was a subvention from the government to the CIF) to the point where the total cost of the LUAS exceeded the 8000 miles of track from Hobart to Darwin. But the southside got its cute transport system.

The Aircoach is designed to take people from the southside to the Airport as quickly as possible. It doesn't do anything for the Northside.

This is not a bitter rant or anything like that. We are used to getting the shitty end of the stick. But some of us vote with our feet anyway. I did. My brother did. My sister did. So it doesn't affect us. But we see the bias. And it is not unexpected.
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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:31 pm

There is a massive advantage for non-Dubs in the Luas going as far as it does. It means that people from Wicklow, Kildare, Laois, Offaly can commute towards town and leave their cars at the Red Cow or Tallaght and not have to clog up the city while they work, attend matches or whatever. It's a little blinkered Slim Buddha to suggest that the cute southside transport is only for southsiders, cute or otherwise.

I share your cynicism but bear in mind that when work began on the Grand Canal in 1756, the first twenty miles cost double the initial estimate to build at a snail's pace and eventually Dublin Corporation, as it was at the time, ran out of money. This problems are nothing new, unfortunately.

What's the shitty end of the stick, by the way when it comes to Northsiders getting to the airport? You're closer than anyone else, have public transport and more taxis apparently than one could shake a shitty stick at.
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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:37 pm

And you have all those lovely trees and green spaces.
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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:38 pm

Kate P wrote:
There is a massive advantage for non-Dubs in the Luas going as far as it does. It means that people from Wicklow, Kildare, Laois, Offaly can commute towards town and leave their cars at the Red Cow or Tallaght and not have to clog up the city while they work, attend matches or whatever. It's a little blinkered Slim Buddha to suggest that the cute southside transport is only for southsiders, cute or otherwise.

I share your cynicism but bear in mind that when work began on the Grand Canal in 1756, the first twenty miles cost double the initial estimate to build at a snail's pace and eventually Dublin Corporation, as it was at the time, ran out of money. This problems are nothing new, unfortunately.

What's the shitty end of the stick, by the way when it comes to Northsiders getting to the airport? You're closer than anyone else, have public transport and more taxis apparently than one could shake a shitty stick at.

With respect Kate, you have just undermined your point. You reckon the 33 bus from Loughshinny cuts the mustard. So the LUAS while serving the people of Wicklow, Kildare, Laois and Offaly but the prople of Garristown and the Naul and Swords can make do with buses????

With regard to the Airport being on the Northside, I would suggest that it was primarily situated there because the good folk on the south side did not want the noise. We "have public transport"?? You are joking, aren't you??

So it's taxis then. Northsiders really do pay a premium for all the facilities we have.
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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:56 pm

Quote :
With respect Kate, you have just undermined your point. You reckon the 33 bus from Loughshinny cuts the mustard. So the LUAS while serving the people of Wicklow, Kildare, Laois and Offaly but the prople of Garristown and the Naul and Swords can make do with buses????

You know well that's not what I'm suggesting - but I can't blame you for trying.

You attacked the Luas, I defended it. If the Luas had been built on the Northside, you wouldn't be whingeing about it as a class divisor - it would simply be a tram that happens to make your life more convenient and meet the needs of a whole pile of people who don't actually live in the city. Then again, I often forget to remind myself that there are many Dubliners who don't know that three quarters of the country's population doesn't live in Dublin and that in fact an awful lot of them live off the M7 / N7 that is served by the Luas.

Quote :
With regard to the Airport being on the Northside, I would suggest that it was primarily situated there because the good folk on the south side did not want the noise. We "have public transport"?? You are joking, aren't you??

Well we could just as well argue that the old Vikings put Dublin on the East Coast because they thought hell had to be better than Connaught but that won't get us very far right now. The airport is where it is. And you may note that I haven't actually said at any point that Metro North shouldn't be built and I have a notion your response is based on the presumption that that is what I believe.

Quote :
So it's taxis then. Northsiders really do pay a premium for all the facilities we have.
There is a network of public transport that operates out of and into the Northside (and I'm not sure why we're still dividing the city using those terms) and there are a huge number of taxis. People who live on the Northside are closer than anyone else in the country almost, to the airport - you could walk from the Naul, for God's sake. Poor Johnfás on the Southside would have to take out a mortgage to get from his neck of the woods to the airport.

Quite apart from all of the above, access to the airport is not a fundamental human right, nor is it a marker of a body's worth as a citizen - of Dublin or anywhere else. It's not even weekly bread.
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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:58 pm

Having said all that, I have no support for the destruction of Stephen's Green whatsoever.
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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:00 pm

cactus flower wrote:
And you have all those lovely trees and green spaces.

And it's great that we have them, given north Dublin is as good as a public transport-free zone and likely to remain so. Mind you, planning corruption affects all of Dublin and the effects of all the corruption going back as far as Burke in the early 70s means that we can never really get out of the mess we have with public transport. Ever.
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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:07 pm

Kate P wrote:
Poor Johnfás on the Southside would have to take out a mortgage to get from his neck of the woods to the airport.

If he isn't leaving the car in the carpark he gets the 16 bus which takes getting on towards two hours as it also serves vast tracts of the Northside... which is ironic given this debate Razz. Not all the southside is well served by public transport. I don't have anymore bus route serving Terenure than most areas on the Northside.
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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:08 pm

[quote="Slim Buddha"]
cactus flower wrote:
And you have all those lovely trees and green spaces.

And it's great that we have them, given north Dublin is as good as a public transport-free zone and likely to remain so. Mind you, planning corruption affects all of Dublin and the effects of all the corruption going back as far as Burke in the early 70s means that we can never really get out of the mess we have with public transport. Ever.[/quote]

What do you mean by that, SB?
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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:11 pm

If I were a betting man I would put money on there being serious an ongoing damage being done to Stephens Green if it were to go ahead. You'd just find the Fusilier's Arch sank onto the track one day or something like that.
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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:19 pm

Kate P wrote:
Quote :
With respect Kate, you have just undermined your point. You reckon the 33 bus from Loughshinny cuts the mustard. So the LUAS while serving the people of Wicklow, Kildare, Laois and Offaly but the prople of Garristown and the Naul and Swords can make do with buses????

You know well that's not what I'm suggesting - but I can't blame you for trying.

You attacked the Luas, I defended it. If the Luas had been built on the Northside, you wouldn't be whingeing about it as a class divisor - it would simply be a tram that happens to make your life more convenient and meet the needs of a whole pile of people who don't actually live in the city. Then again, I often forget to remind myself that there are many Dubliners who don't know that three quarters of the country's population doesn't live in Dublin and that in fact an awful lot of them live off the M7 / N7 that is served by the Luas.

Quote :
With regard to the Airport being on the Northside, I would suggest that it was primarily situated there because the good folk on the south side did not want the noise. We "have public transport"?? You are joking, aren't you??

Well we could just as well argue that the old Vikings put Dublin on the East Coast because they thought hell had to be better than Connaught but that won't get us very far right now. The airport is where it is. And you may note that I haven't actually said at any point that Metro North shouldn't be built and I have a notion your response is based on the presumption that that is what I believe.

Quote :
So it's taxis then. Northsiders really do pay a premium for all the facilities we have.
There is a network of public transport that operates out of and into the Northside (and I'm not sure why we're still dividing the city using those terms) and there are a huge number of taxis. People who live on the Northside are closer than anyone else in the country almost, to the airport - you could walk from the Naul, for God's sake. Poor Johnfás on the Southside would have to take out a mortgage to get from his neck of the woods to the airport.

Quite apart from all of the above, access to the airport is not a fundamental human right, nor is it a marker of a body's worth as a citizen - of Dublin or anywhere else. It's not even weekly bread.

Walk from the Naul? To where? The airport? Ok you do it and I'll time you!
Yes, people on the north side are nearer the Airport. One thing that bothers me about the disaster we call Dublin Airport is the huge number of cars parked with reg. plates from Longford and Tipperary and so on. When the second terminal was being discussed and Harney disgracefully blocked the final decision for six and a half years trying to make it a totally private facility for the benefit of the McEvaddy's or O'Leary, O'Leary should have been told he could have an airport in Athlone as long as he built it himself. I still believe that. As he lives in Mullingar, he could oversee the building almost from home. It would be a great piece of infrastructure for the midlands

I didn't attack the LUAS. I merely indicated that I was not surprised that such a transport innovation in Dublin inevitably serves the south side first. It's the way of things.

I don't believe in a northside/southside class divide. There is some validity in an East/West divide in Dublin these days. But the public transport problem is more easily explained in a north/south manner because that's the way it was planned.

As for the high percentage of people who do not live in Dublin, yes we are aware of them. We are also aware that you have your own political operators whose job they believe is to ensure you get enough out of the pork barrel we call government. They are your gofors, even if, as in your case, Kate, the polltopper in your constituency is a bit busy these days.
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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:29 pm

[quote="Kate P"]
Slim Buddha wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
And you have all those lovely trees and green spaces.

And it's great that we have them, given north Dublin is as good as a public transport-free zone and likely to remain so. Mind you, planning corruption affects all of Dublin and the effects of all the corruption going back as far as Burke in the early 70s means that we can never really get out of the mess we have with public transport. Ever.[/quote]

What do you mean by that, SB?

I mean that Dublin is one of the worst planned cities in Europe. Decisions were made on land which was totally unsuitable for building purposes by using what used to be section 4 of the planning act, which enabled elected councillors overturn the recommendation not to build initially given by the engineers/town planners/county surveyors (experts, in other words). How was the decision to build Tallaght arrived at? Vast areas of west Swords? Ronanstown? How come Lucan, once a lovely village, is now buried in a welter of housing estates? There are countless examples of the mindless civic vandalism visited by councillors on the city of Dublin.

Now trhat we have uncontrolled urban sprawl, coupled with Article 43 of the constitution (which enshrines the sanctity of private property), how can we ever get out of this mess? Compulsory Purchase Orders only go so far.
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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:50 pm

How many landowners ever had success arguing a CPO with Section 43 - has it been done? Has it been ruled against for policy reasons?

Zoning is still a reserved function of councillors and decisions are made every day in this country, rezoning lands for developments for which they are not suitable.
Quote :

Last month, two Midlands councils zoned a floodplain on the outskirts of a town centre for development -- despite warnings from the Office of Public Works about flood risks.
Offaly County Council and Tullamore Town Council proposed a multi-million euro scheme to develop the Grand Canal Quarter in Tullamore, an area which is prone to flooding. A majority of councillors backed the plans, just weeks before the new guidelines are due to be announced.
Planning sources said yesterday that councillors often relied on flood risk reports from consultants who were also employed by the developers seeking planning permission.
"A consultant will always say flooding won't happen because they're paid to say so," one said. "Landowners tend to be relentless in seeking permission -- they keep coming back again and again."
The planning guidelines follow on claims that developments are being allowed in locations with known flood risks.
In one case, planning permission was granted for a one-off house in Co Galway, even though photographs were submitted with the site under water.
And Galway-based developers Oyster Homes has sought planning permission for the second time for a large development in Carrick on Shannon, even though the site is at risk of flooding, while new homes built in Co Limerick could be at risk of being washed away because they are so close to the river bank.
Chief executive of the Northern Fisheries Board, Harry Lloyd, said yesterday that the widespread flooding that hit Carlow was because large parts of the floodplain were built upon in the 1960s.
There was no excuse for not knowing if land was prone to flooding as risk assessment maps could be built quite easily, he said.
from this article

It is a badly planned city, but I'm not getting
the connection between planing corruption and the inability, ever to get out of hthe mess we have with public transport. Though I'd agree that it will be the case unless there's some creative and inventive thinking when it comes to transport.

The Naul Road runs right by the airport (which is why I thought it closer than it is when I posted above, a little tongue in cheek.) But even at that, I'd walk it faster than Johnfás would make it by bus from Terenure.

There are plans, would you believe, for an airport in Offaly, link here though Michael O'Leary has nothing to do with it.
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PostSubject: Re: Metro North: The Pros and Cons   Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:59 pm

In most European cities, public policy requirements (the necessity for an efficient mass transit system) beat the private property concerns of those who have to make way for such an infrastructural development. But then again, in most European countries, planning is done years in advance and NOT subject to the brown-envelope fuelled desires of a few unscrupulous minor politicos. The fact remains that Ireland is a country where a car is as necessary to exist as a pair of lungs. I cannot see that changing since a seismic shift in thinking is needed as are the legal tools to implement such drastic change.
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