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 Dublin Bay Motorway returns!

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PostSubject: Re: Dublin Bay Motorway returns!   Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:15 am

It's intended that it will go under Booterstown though ?
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PostSubject: Re: Dublin Bay Motorway returns!   Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:34 am

johnfás wrote:
Half of that (to the right of Booterstown Ave) is Blackrock College, to the left of Booterstown Ave is St Andrew's College and then the bit with the maze looking thing at the rear of it is a Radisson Hotel. They aren't exactly public amenities.

Possible route?:-

I am assuming that they go overground. Going underground would remove most route selection problems.


You would have to CPO the Radisson obviously. There would obviously have to be some deals done with the schools, but surely it should be possible to give some of the Radisson land to St Andrews to compensate for the land lost to the motorway.

The Eastern Bypass is actually quite a feasible project. Wouldn't it be nice to see a Loopline style bridge running across Sandymonut strand towards the Port?
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PostSubject: Re: Dublin Bay Motorway returns!   Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:50 am

Bringing it in at Booterstown would also probably result in the destruction of Booterstown Marsh which is a Bird Sanctuary.

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PostSubject: Re: Dublin Bay Motorway returns!   Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:53 am

More road infrastructure at this point in time seems to be the wrong way to be spending money, it would look archaic by the time it was finished. We need to be getting people out of cars and look much harder at travel, living and work patterns.

What happened to the idea for a continuous Dublin east coastal cycle route?
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PostSubject: Re: Dublin Bay Motorway returns!   Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:00 am

I wonder hwo much employment this will create? It seems an odd time to start building roads from a budgetary point of view, unless this is a Keynesian-style public works project in the vein of the New Deal and the Weimar public works projects?

Arbeit Macht Frei!
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PostSubject: Re: Dublin Bay Motorway returns!   Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:01 am

We'll all be driving a volkswagan and having a family holiday each summer by the end of it...
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PostSubject: Re: Dublin Bay Motorway returns!   Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:10 am

Auditor #9 wrote:
Quote :
Route Option One (€3.95bn at 2015 prices): 2.5km viaduct, nine metres above the ground, across Dublin Port, tunnel under Dublin Bay, viaduct across Sandymount strand with a tunnel under Booterstown and tunnel from the N11 to Sandyford interchange. Route Option Two (€4.2bn): High viaduct across the Port, with a tunnel under bay, across Sandymount Strand, under Booterstown and from the N11 to Sandyford. Route Option Three (€4.35bn): Cut and cover tunnel across the Port. Tunnel under bay, across Sandymount Strand and under Booterstown and a part tunnel from the N11 to Sandyford. THE TIMESCALE: 2008-2011: Statutory procedures, including planning and design stage. 2012: Land purchases. 2013: Contract awarded. 2018: Eastern bypass opens.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/route-options-for-motorway-1593884.html

Dublin is clogged up with traffic in the middle, on the West, on the South, everywhere so it needs more roads. Big ones. I don't believe the road will draw more cars out of the woodwork if the price is right Wink

May people who use this road get tolled up to the back of the eyeballs (at least a tenner each way) and the proceeds sent down here to complete the bloody road from Ennis-Gort to Galway.


Last edited by Auditor #9 on Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Dublin Bay Motorway returns!   Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:11 am

Are they seriously proposing to spend money on this thing?

Road projects as carried out in Ireland are very poor work generators. The numbers of people working on the roads are small, with bigger and bigger machines.

In Spain, they are famous for having used Structural Funds for more labour intensive work, that spread the benefit more and gave the economy a greater kick.
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PostSubject: Re: Dublin Bay Motorway returns!   Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:14 am

Yes but Dublin needs more traffic decongesters such as steep toll gates. There should also be work for programmers and techies who will be using software to bolt the number-plate readings onto the victims car tax annually.

It will generate congestion money which should be spent productively later on on bus and cycle lanes. I hope this GREAT PROJECT will contribute to pedestrianising the city centre.
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PostSubject: Re: Dublin Bay Motorway returns!   Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:22 am

[quote="johnfás"]Bringing it in at Booterstown would also probably result in the destruction of Booterstown Marsh which is a Bird Sanctuary.

The bird sanctuary should not be affected -
a) the road would not necessarily pass through the bird sanctuary
b) the road would have to go under or over the Dart line so it would not be at ground level
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PostSubject: Re: Dublin Bay Motorway returns!   Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:28 am

Auditor #9 wrote:
Auditor #9 wrote:
Quote :
Route Option One (€3.95bn at 2015 prices): 2.5km viaduct, nine metres above the ground, across Dublin Port, tunnel under Dublin Bay, viaduct across Sandymount strand with a tunnel under Booterstown and tunnel from the N11 to Sandyford interchange. Route Option Two (€4.2bn): High viaduct across the Port, with a tunnel under bay, across Sandymount Strand, under Booterstown and from the N11 to Sandyford. Route Option Three (€4.35bn): Cut and cover tunnel across the Port. Tunnel under bay, across Sandymount Strand and under Booterstown and a part tunnel from the N11 to Sandyford. THE TIMESCALE: 2008-2011: Statutory procedures, including planning and design stage. 2012: Land purchases. 2013: Contract awarded. 2018: Eastern bypass opens.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/route-options-for-motorway-1593884.html

Dublin is clogged up with traffic in the middle, on the West, on the South, everywhere so it needs more roads. Big ones. I don't believe the road will draw more cars out of the woodwork if the price is right Wink

May people who use get tolled up to the back of the eyeballs and the proceeds sent down here to complete the bloody road from Ennis-Gort to Galway.

On this one, we might as well abandon words, and beat each other over the head with blunt objects. All the evidence that if you build the roads the cars will come. Is there not some more modern and sustainable technology with delightful and useful bells and whistles that might satisfy your need to move from south to north in Dublin? A lot fewer people will be able to afford cars: people are desperately trying to give them up, and now they are pushing up the cost
of public transport.

This is from a nice site by someone who loves mass transit of all kinds
http://subways-and-urban-transport.blogspot.com/2007_04_20_archive.html


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PostSubject: Re: Dublin Bay Motorway returns!   Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:33 am

People should cycle more. It is good for you and provided you buy the correct gear, which is far cheaper than a car, you are fine no matter what the weather. You can also commute on a bicycle for quite long distances. I have a friend who cycles into the city centre and back from Bray every day.
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PostSubject: Re: Dublin Bay Motorway returns!   Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:40 am

cactus flower wrote:
On this one, we might as well abandon words, and beat each other over the head with blunt objects. All the evidence that if you build the roads the cars will come. Is there not some more modern and sustainable technology with delightful and useful bells and whistles that might satisfy your need to move from south to north in Dublin? A lot fewer people will be able to afford cars: people are desperately trying to give them up, and now they are pushing up the cost
of public transport.

This is from a nice site by someone who loves mass transit of all kinds
http://subways-and-urban-transport.blogspot.com/2007_04_20_archive.html

Good. This is the Karmic way to deal with that then: you build a toll gate or two on the way to the Airport and you charge people a minimum of €20 quid per journey, justified as insurance in case the tunnel collapses and the Booterstown Birds all end up as roadkill etc.

Then you send the gathered money down to Shannon Airport. Lastly you put a massive neon lights sign up in front of the Departures at Dublin Airport stating how much money Dublin's excess donated to Shannon upto now. This mechanism should be written into the constitution, into a special part which cannot be removed by referendum or anything else.

That'll learn ye.
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PostSubject: Re: Dublin Bay Motorway returns!   Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:51 am

Quote :
Cycle Lanes
Wednesday, June 22nd, 2005
73. Mr. Gormley asked the Minister for Transport the stage of development the proposed Sutton to Sandycove coastal cycle route is at; the estimated cost, the design and timetable for the construction of the project; and the agencies responsible for its completion. [21106/05]

Minister of State at the Department of Transport (Mr. Callely): The S2S - Sutton to Sandycove - proposal involves the provision of a 22 km promenade and cycleway around Dublin Bay from Sutton to Sandycove, with links to the city centre. The plan entails linking the existing and planned walkways and cycleways around Dublin Bay by providing linking schemes and by upgrading some of the facilities that already exist.
I support the concept and am pleased to say that the DTO traffic management grant committee approved Exchequer funding for a feasibility study for the proposed scheme. The DTO, the Dublin Regional Authority, and the three local authorities in whose areas the scheme would be, that is, Dublin City Council, Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council and Fingal County Council, participated in the steering committee for the feasibility study. The report is now complete, and is being assessed by the DTO and its committees. I look forward to being advised by the DTO on its recommendations as to future progress on the scheme.

22 kilometers of cycle-pedestrian way along the coast from Sutton to Howth - Map here

http://www.s2s.ie/Maps.htm

Anyone know if this has been moved on ?
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PostSubject: Re: Dublin Bay Motorway returns!   Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:07 am

Auditor #9 wrote:
Dublin is clogged up with traffic in the middle, on the West, on the South, everywhere so it needs more roads. Big ones. I don't believe the road will draw more cars out of the woodwork if the price is right Wink

Think about it logically, Audi. What you are saying there is that you will prevent congestion on the new road by charging a toll that has the same effect of putting people off using the road as congestion does - while simultaneously saying that the road will relieve congestion. It will not relieve congestion if the "price is right" - it will become a luxury route - and developing a motorway across Dublin's major free public amenity as a luxury route is...well, things too rude to say to you. Think fist-waving, pitchforks, torches, angry mobs, ropes thrown over tree branches. There is no suitable emoticon, because a suitable one would leave a fist-sized hole in the computer screen.

Similarly, providing a couple of year's work at the expense of permanent alteration of the city's character, and of the character of the city's major free public amenity is an obscene piece of short-sightedness. When the economy turns up again, the jobs will be restored, but the amenity is gone for good.

Dublin does not need a motorway across its major free public amenity. It suits the planners because they don't have to negotiate with property owners, get compulsory purchase orders, deal with other transport and utility provisions. It has about it the false lustre of simplicity - look, you just draw a line across here and voila! transport problems are magically solved. It is being suggested because it is easy, and for no other reason. It's like crapping in your trousers because you couldn't be bothered pulling them down - and just like that, it will stink, and very quickly too.
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PostSubject: Re: Dublin Bay Motorway returns!   Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:31 am

ibis I think the reason it should relieve congestion is that it will be part of an orbital structure comprising of the M50 as well. At the moment the M50 is a half a cul de sac kind of thing - you go from Dundrum or Blackrock to the Airport on it and the only real way of coming back is via the M50 reasonably quickly. Building the Eastern bypass would be almost like doubling the capacity of the M50.

It seems there are undersea options for a tunnel with a 'high viaduct' over part of Dublin Bay then 'across' Sandymount and under Bewterstown. It's not clear if the 'across' bit refers to the tunnel going across under Sandymount but where and how would it surface if it means 'across over' unless it connects to another viaduct over Sandymount then loops under Booterstown again. Wouldn't they just tunnel under everything ?

On the toll charges - I know they probably can't charge more than the M50 or something unless they say it's specifically for trucks maybe like the Port Tunnel ??

For those lunatics who tmust ake the option of driving through the city centre going Nth Sth or Sth Nth, wouldn't there now be a better option for them so they would be unclogging the city centre to make way for pedestrianising it and so on ?
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PostSubject: Re: Dublin Bay Motorway returns!   Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:11 am

Auditor #9 wrote:
ibis I think the reason it should relieve congestion is that it will be part of an orbital structure comprising of the M50 as well. At the moment the M50 is a half a cul de sac kind of thing - you go from Dundrum or Blackrock to the Airport on it and the only real way of coming back is via the M50 reasonably quickly. Building the Eastern bypass would be almost like doubling the capacity of the M50.

It seems there are undersea options for a tunnel with a 'high viaduct' over part of Dublin Bay then 'across' Sandymount and under Bewterstown. It's not clear if the 'across' bit refers to the tunnel going across under Sandymount but where and how would it surface unless it connects to another viaduct over Sandymount then loops under Booterstown again. Wouldn't they just tunnel under everything ?

On the toll charges - I know they probably can't charge more than the M50 or something unless they say it's specifically for trucks maybe like the Port Tunnel ??

For those lunatics who tmust ake the option of driving through the city centre going Nth Sth or Sth Nth, wouldn't there now be a better option for them so they would be unclogging the city centre to make way for pedestrianising it and so on ?

There are an almost infinite number of options - any existing road route could be turned into a motorway, but it would involve buying up the land along the way. The only advantage to the Dublin Bay route is that it doesn't.

You still seem to be missing the point that the ability of new roads to generate new traffic is a really really well-known phenomenon. What stops people driving from A to B where they have other options is congestion - they decide to reschedule for a less congested time, to take public transport, to arrange matters differently, to not go.

Graphically illustrated - the numbers on the circles indicate each driver's tolerance for congestion in terms of how many other cars they can tolerate having on the road as well as them. Once the driver's tolerance is exceeded, they will no longer drive. A dashed line indicates a driver who may choose either option.



Congestion on a route is always a sign that there is pent-up demand, because there are always people who will not drive when a road is congested. Note that this is not pent-up demand for necessary journeys, because people will take those whatever the congestion levels. This is pent-up demand for taking the car option over other options. A proposed bypass will, first and foremost, take people off the DART, because there is a strong preference for driving your own car over taking public transport as long as congestion is not too bad. People who take the DART into town every morning for work drive in on a Sunday.

Short of paving over the entire city, there is no known way to reduce people's willingness to take car journeys by building more roads, period. It does not matter how well the lines on the map look, you can't reduce overall congestion by building more roads. What you actually do is create slightly lower levels of congestion in more places, and the sum total of congestion increases, while amenities, civic space, fresh air, and public transport, all decrease. That's why well-planned cities don't keep building more and bigger roads - it doesn't solve the problem except briefly. It's like taking heroin to relieve stress.
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PostSubject: Re: Dublin Bay Motorway returns!   Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:38 pm

That's a nice point about this piece of kit not needing to be built over bought-up land - that's the beauty of tunnels innit ? No feckers in a field saying "you'll take my life before you'll take my field for that road! My father and my father's father before me dug shtones the sizes of hay-bails out of that land with our bare hands and now you want to take it and build a road to Galway on it!? Over my hunger-struck body! A modest offer of a CPO of 20 mill might stop me from phoning LocalFM or the Local People etc. however"

Ha feckin ha if they can burrow underneath these bloodsuckers.

I think I get your point about the congestion though I don't really believe it. My word for this year is 'peak' and I think 'peak cars' should be induced in Dublin now as well as 'peak roads'. Dublin lacks a decent orbital route and a decent public transport system as an alternative. As you say, it wasn't a planned city so we're bumbling along with it but I believe it's the right direction if handled properly i.e. the toll proceeds go to funding public transport and a big hoo-hah is made of that fact.

I think it's immoral and unfair and unjust to let the Dublin drivers suffer the congestion of your graphic. I can appreciate this as a driver too - it's nice to have space on the road. Wouldn't it be good to have citizens who can use the infrastructure with a sense of peace and pride too ?

Dublin is congested in general I felt while living there and needs a lot more public transport. I should soak up the Metro North thread as well and perhaps some references which cross over will be necessary between this and that. People need alternatives and they just aren't there in Dublin. It's a disgrace if you look at the Northside - very poorly served by public transport, my only real memory of a decent service was the bus from Finglas. The city needs plenty of non-car transport so people can head to the airport without their car at all. The airport car park should be for us culchies - the city should be facilitated with an overwhelming choice of buses and trains going there. As you say, demand is there but give people the option of buses by charging a toll and funnelling that money into public transport.

So a public transport system needs to be more completed than a road system which also needs to be completed and I think this would be a big part of it. After that, peak everything should be induced, particularly the growth of Dublin itself.

If that outer orbital route from Drogheda were to be established then that would be a nightmare I'd think. At present anyway. The country's development is badly unbalanced as it is.
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PostSubject: Re: Dublin Bay Motorway returns!   Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:28 am

>>> Moved to Machine Nation/Energy, Transport and Infrastructure
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