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 Dublin Bay Motorway returns!

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PostSubject: Dublin Bay Motorway returns!   Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:47 am

The Dublin Bay motorway scheme has been resurrected again. An NRA report puts it forward as an "Eastern Bypass". IT article here.

The excuse this time is that "rising traffic levels will eventually make the road necessary", but this idea comes up at least once every decade. There's something about the wide open spaces of Dublin Bay that just drives road planners into a frenzy.

Anybody care to argue the case for?
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PostSubject: Re: Dublin Bay Motorway returns!   Fri Jan 09, 2009 7:36 am

ibis wrote:
The Dublin Bay motorway scheme has been resurrected again. An NRA report puts it forward as an "Eastern Bypass". IT article here.

The excuse this time is that "rising traffic levels will eventually make the road necessary", but this idea comes up at least once every decade. There's something about the wide open spaces of Dublin Bay that just drives road planners into a frenzy.

Anybody care to argue the case for?
Well, it should help restart the construction sector. God knows they probably need it :-) And, of course, we can expand the IFSC out as far as the new motorway creating lots of new tax-break opportunities - Sorry, I mean appartments - in the process. Also, as the entire Government's finances seem to be based on property related taxes, anything to get money pumping in that area should be welcomed. And, that's before you consider the electoral implications - opposing the scheme will be a sure-fire vote winner for the Greens...
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PostSubject: Re: Dublin Bay Motorway returns!   Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:12 am


http://www.spencerdock.ie/transport/proposed/eastern_bypass

There will be a Dublin Bay Bridge running in the strand along Sandymount from Irishtown or the Docks (?) -- will planning be granted for that ??? Or will it be tunnelled under the city at that point before it emerges and loops back in to join up with the dual carriageway around Stillorgan (?)

Dublin needs more roads like this I feel anyway - this one needs to have a good old toll on it too. There's way too much traffic going through the city and this might divert some around. Overall traffic could be reduced there using public transport and cycling but there needs to be an alternative for motorists --the car is not going to suddenly disappear next year or the year after. Will it?

I read recently in the IT that Dublin is shrinking in population slightly. This probably won't be a trend but even if it is a road like that around the city will help lift it while being built and will be a useful piece of infrastructure for motorists. I could see another road from the Docks tunnelled under the Liffey going West at some other stage but this would do for now. Again though there is a surprising lack of public transport in the city too.

Good time economically to borrow to build this I'd say. Time to get the best value out of the developers. Have we very hard road contract negotiators in the NRA I wonder ?

Nothing on archiseek yet on it..
http://www.archiseek.com/content/forumdisplay.php?f=49
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PostSubject: Re: Dublin Bay Motorway returns!   Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:22 am

Looks sensible. They should build it so that it passes more north easterly towards Raheny, no?
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PostSubject: Re: Dublin Bay Motorway returns!   Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:43 am

Respvblica wrote:
Looks sensible. They should build it so that it passes more north easterly towards Raheny, no?
It will link up with the Port Tunnel I believe but it does look like there's plenty of scope for a route up past EVMs house on there past Raheny.
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PostSubject: Re: Dublin Bay Motorway returns!   Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:37 pm

I think it was the IEI that brought this up last time, maybe 5 years ago.
If it goes anywhere near my house I'll call in an airstrike.
It would also enable me to get to the southside without getting lost.

Are they proposing a golden gate type bridge or land reclamation ?
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PostSubject: Re: Dublin Bay Motorway returns!   Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:10 pm

More lunacy. Get ready to stand in the Locals, DublinBayEVM.
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PostSubject: Re: Dublin Bay Motorway returns!   Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:17 pm

Better idea than Metro North anyway... and over €1 billion cheaper.
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PostSubject: Re: Dublin Bay Motorway returns!   Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:22 pm

It's another one of these ideas that makes complete sense as a line on a map - or indeed to people who don't live in Dublin. It doesn't make sense when you look at the amenity/cultural/historic value of the Strand and the Bay. It's train set planning.
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PostSubject: Re: Dublin Bay Motorway returns!   Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:25 pm

johnfás wrote:
Better idea than Metro North anyway... and over €1 billion cheaper.

No better and no worse than Metro North imo - both would be disasters.
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PostSubject: Re: Dublin Bay Motorway returns!   Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:27 pm

Weren't there a number of huge diggers on mounds out in the sea in front of Sanymount two or three years ago. It looked like they had built op sand to park on when the tide came in. I presumed they were doing investigations for road building. Anyone got the skinny on their activities?
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PostSubject: Re: Dublin Bay Motorway returns!   Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:33 pm

This would be a very good idea if it can be combined with a sea defence for the dart line from Blackrock into the inner city, and for the houses between the Dart line and the sea. That coast road between Sandymount strand and coastal housing is 3 metres above sea level TOPS and the housing behind it is lower....
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PostSubject: Re: Dublin Bay Motorway returns!   Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:06 pm

Lunacy.
We're starved of public transport in Dublin but we'll piss away a few billion on a motorway already served by the M50 and a network of city streets.
Yes, I know there is congestion, but building more roads won't solve that.

CF, what have you got against Metro North?
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PostSubject: Re: Dublin Bay Motorway returns!   Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:23 pm

I have no faith in the NRA.

I don't care if they come in under budget and ahead of time, their methodology, planning and the fiasco that masquerades as 'public consultation' are all a joke.

There is no need for this road. The rejuvenated and much improved (more to do, I know) M50 can get you from home to the southside in no time, EVM.

I'm at a loss to know why we need a road that will take the route as planned whose purpose, as far as I can see from the above posts, is to make more convenient for a small number of people at any given time, their occasional trip to the airport.

The airport is not an everyday destination and Dublin is a small city. It's possible to get from Sandyford to the airport in anything between 20 mins and half an hour at the moment by taking the M50.



It's clear from the map that ibis posted that the CBD is the hub from which the rest of the city radiates, served well by buses, luas and taxis.

Do people have any idea how wide a motorway is? How much would have to be levelled or hollowed to make it possible? It's lunacy.
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PostSubject: Re: Dublin Bay Motorway returns!   Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:36 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Dublin Bay Motorway returns!   Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:24 pm

Leave Dublin Bay alone.
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PostSubject: Re: Dublin Bay Motorway returns!   Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:06 pm

ceacg wrote:
Leave Dublin Bay alone.
So it could be some kind of causeway down the beach at Sandymount, if I have the geography right, which will house a road or will the area between the causeway and the current road be filled in a built on? Would some tunnel under the strand there be a possibility? It would then be hidden from view. If the tunnel boring machine was knocking around the city still after the Port Tunnel then maybe it wouldn't be so costly to bore under the strand ?

Do you foresee unrest and a landslide of planning objections ceacg and would that be enough to stop the project anyway ?
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PostSubject: Re: Dublin Bay Motorway returns!   Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:14 pm

Auditor #9 wrote:
ceacg wrote:
Leave Dublin Bay alone.
So it could be some kind of causeway down the beach at Sandymount, if I have the geography right, which will house a road or will the area between the causeway and the current road be filled in a built on? Would some tunnel under the strand there be a possibility? It would then be hidden from view. If the tunnel boring machine was knocking around the city still after the Port Tunnel then maybe it wouldn't be so costly to bore under the strand ?

Do you foresee unrest and a landslide of planning objections ceacg and would that be enough to stop the project anyway ?

If you put a road across the Strand, you lose the amenity value of the Strand, plus almost inevitably you would eventually get infill building - which would then constitute an enormous hostage to rising sea levels.

If you put the motorway over the Strand on a bridge, you lose much of the amenity value of the Strand, the views of the sea for everyone on the coastal strip, and the view of Dublin from the sea.

If you put the motorway under the Strand, what you're doing is putting a vibrating pipe under wet sand - think about it.

Whatever you do will change the sedimentation patterns of the Bay, which will have unknown effects on Dublin port and the other amenity areas along the Dublin coast.

All of that, in exchange for a motorway which cuts a small amount off travel time...until it gets clogged to the same level as the alternative routes, because roads are a case of "if you build it, they will come". That roads fill up to the same level of congestion (because more people choose to take more journeys by car when more road space is available) has been a known fact of transport planning for nearly twenty years. Why the hell are people ignoring it to tout the DUblin Bay route again?
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PostSubject: Re: Dublin Bay Motorway returns!   Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:26 pm

If you build it, charge them a massive fortune I say.

Would the tunnel not be in the bedrock or is that too deep ?
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PostSubject: Re: Dublin Bay Motorway returns!   Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:39 pm

Auditor #9 wrote:
If you build it, charge them a massive fortune I say.

Would the tunnel not be in the bedrock or is that too deep ?

Just don't build it.

But what would the NRA do with itself if it didn't have communities to divide, environmental groups to ostracise, politicians to please...
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PostSubject: Re: Dublin Bay Motorway returns!   Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:11 pm

Auditor #9 wrote:
If you build it, charge them a massive fortune I say.

Would the tunnel not be in the bedrock or is that too deep ?

Up to 40m down, and there's an old Liffey channel down there somewhere too. Would you believe we don't actually know?
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PostSubject: Re: Dublin Bay Motorway returns!   Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:01 am

Dublin City Council is already investigating the building of a tidal barrier in Dublin Bay. It seems obvious that the possiblilty of an Eastern Bypass should be examined along with that.

That fact that a man-made structure would be added to Dublin Bay does not mean that the amenities of the bay would necessarily diminish. Look at the North Bull Wall for example, which created Bull island.

There are problems with travelling between North East and South East Dublin. If you are not on a Dart or Luas route then you really have no choice but to drive. Dublin Bus is too slow. Also, the opening of the O2 centre has seriously devalued the infrastructural value of the East Link (and the completion of the Point Village will make it worse). This means that driving through the city centre is going to increase rather than decrease in volume. You cannot remove traffic from the city centre without a viable eastern traffic route.

There is also lots of green space in Dublin. A bridge/causeway/motorway coming to shore in Booterstown could reach the Stillorgan road (N11) without a major impact on buildings (I am basing this on Google maps).

It would be great if there was excellent public transport in Dublin, but there isn't in all areas.
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PostSubject: Re: Dublin Bay Motorway returns!   Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:15 am

Is there really lots of green space in Dublin ? I've looked for stats on it but short of google-earthing the green space area and calculating it manually I've no idea if stats exist on it. I know the Phoenix park is massive but it'd be better if it was busted in half and one of the halves re-distributed around the city centre in four or five parks. Blasphemy I know - watch out if I become dictator ever. There's no green space in the IFSC for example .. Very little on the Northside outside the Eastern part of the Northside.

That's parks for you.

Quote :
Route Option One (€3.95bn at 2015 prices): 2.5km viaduct, nine metres above the ground, across Dublin Port, tunnel under Dublin Bay, viaduct across Sandymount strand with a tunnel under Booterstown and tunnel from the N11 to Sandyford interchange. Route Option Two (€4.2bn): High viaduct across the Port, with a tunnel under bay, across Sandymount Strand, under Booterstown and from the N11 to Sandyford. Route Option Three (€4.35bn): Cut and cover tunnel across the Port. Tunnel under bay, across Sandymount Strand and under Booterstown and a part tunnel from the N11 to Sandyford. THE TIMESCALE: 2008-2011: Statutory procedures, including planning and design stage. 2012: Land purchases. 2013: Contract awarded. 2018: Eastern bypass opens.
http://www.pressdisplay.com/pressdisplay/viewer.aspx

I got that from "press display" but it's from an Indo.
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PostSubject: Re: Dublin Bay Motorway returns!   Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:59 am

Auditor #9 wrote:
Is there really lots of green space in Dublin ? I've looked for stats on it but short of google-earthing the green space area and calculating it manually I've no idea if stats exist on it. I know the Phoenix park is massive but it'd be better if it was busted in half and one of the halves re-distributed around the city centre in four or five parks. Blasphemy I know - watch out if I become dictator ever. There's no green space in the IFSC for example .. Very little on the Northside outside the Eastern part of the Northside.

That's parks for you.

Have a look at this map:-


There is lots of green between Booterstown and the N11.
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PostSubject: Re: Dublin Bay Motorway returns!   Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:10 am

Half of that (to the right of Booterstown Ave) is Blackrock College, to the left of Booterstown Ave is St Andrew's College and then the bit with the maze looking thing at the rear of it is a Radisson Hotel. They aren't exactly public amenities.
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