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 System Breakdown

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PostSubject: System Breakdown   Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:32 pm

It should be clear that what lads like me were saying 18 months ago is now happening. Most have no idea of what is coming.

We are after seeing a bubble being popped. You are being told that it was a property bubble. That was but a result of the main bubble. The bubble that has popped is the debt based Fiat currency bubble. It is called debt based because money is created by borrowing it into existance. Because of the interest rates on the money the amount of money must be continually expanded to allow for new money to be created to pay the interest on the old money. In a debt based system there must always be inflation. That is why there is now talk of borrowing trillions. The expansion has ceased and the system is coming down.

The fiat money was a great advantage to politicians and bankers as the could spend more than they took in seemingly indefinately. A struggle will ensue to keep this system going as long as possible but it is over.

All the Ron Pauls, Jimmy Rogers, Peter Schiffs are right and the spin meisters on cnbc are wrong. Obama will wreck the country and that is a foregone conclusion. Ireland will follow the money men in Dusseldorf until they are starving. There is no leadership in FF or FG because they are just out for themselves.

To think that Cowen cares about the Dell workers is childish in the extreme. If he did Michael Dell would not be heading to Poland at great expense.

A nrew party is needed but most of all what is needed is a change of mentality of the Irish people.

Are they going down without a whimper. Most likely
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PostSubject: Re: System Breakdown   Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:02 pm

FF got 6/12 seats in Clare and Limerick at the last general election (2007). They got 29/77 after the last local elections (2004). Let's see how they do in June. If the people of Limerick/Clare do not wipe the grin of Willie's face then I must conclude that you are right.

You may be right in your assessment of FG too, but for me it would be incredible if Dell workers and their friends and families do not jump out of the frying pan they are in. To my mind jumping into the fire is at least a first step, after which a jump out of the fire can be considered. Just sitting in the frying pan is unthinkable.
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PostSubject: Re: System Breakdown   Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:11 pm

I wonder how many times in the last century have we all been wrong and the Ron Pauls right and we have all been doomed because the system was finally coming down.

You're sounding more and more like a socialist every day yd. Don't worry, I used to spout that kind of rubbish when I was young, you'll get over it Razz
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PostSubject: Re: System Breakdown   Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:41 pm

coc wrote:
FF got 6/12 seats in Clare and Limerick at the last general election (2007). They got 29/77 after the last local elections (2004). Let's see how they do in June. If the people of Limerick/Clare do not wipe the grin of Willie's face then I must conclude that you are right.

You may be right in your assessment of FG too, but for me it would be incredible if Dell workers and their friends and families do not jump out of the frying pan they are in. To my mind jumping into the fire is at least a first step, after which a jump out of the fire can be considered. Just sitting in the frying pan is unthinkable.
Aye, it’s incredible alright and no mistake about that.
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PostSubject: Re: System Breakdown   Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:11 pm

youngdan wrote:
It should be clear that what lads like me were saying 18 months ago is now happening. Most have no idea of what is coming.

We are after seeing a bubble being popped. You are being told that it was a property bubble. That was but a result of the main bubble. The bubble that has popped is the debt based Fiat currency bubble. It is called debt based because money is created by borrowing it into existance. Because of the interest rates on the money the amount of money must be continually expanded to allow for new money to be created to pay the interest on the old money. In a debt based system there must always be inflation. That is why there is now talk of borrowing trillions. The expansion has ceased and the system is coming down.

The fiat money was a great advantage to politicians and bankers as the could spend more than they took in seemingly indefinately. A struggle will ensue to keep this system going as long as possible but it is over.

All the Ron Pauls, Jimmy Rogers, Peter Schiffs are right and the spin meisters on cnbc are wrong. Obama will wreck the country and that is a foregone conclusion. Ireland will follow the money men in Dusseldorf until they are starving. There is no leadership in FF or FG because they are just out for themselves.

To think that Cowen cares about the Dell workers is childish in the extreme. If he did Michael Dell would not be heading to Poland at great expense.

A nrew party is needed but most of all what is needed is a change of mentality of the Irish people.

Are they going down without a whimper. Most likely

This is about where policy hinges with money production which hinges with how money is spent and on what stuff and how that should come back around and influence policy again. Or something. There's a circle in there somewhere that we have to unravel or see the elements of and try to discern at what point it starts eating its own tail. At the moment it looks ever decreasing - 2k Dell jobs go, perhaps 4k secondary jobs go after as a result, there are grave social and economic consequences, there are potential opportunities.

I've a feeling it's less bleak than we think and in fact I think the problem might be a capacity for over-production on one level and bad management of scarce resources on another that are big elements of this. Strange that 1900 jobs can go and we can be so bleak yet one result might be that computers halve in price and double in power within another year. Maybe. Depends on that circle and how the wind might be knocked out of demand by that big Dell domino falling.

I'd say the answer could be in creating an economy with plenty of variety in it so there are levels to fall back on if a floor collapses but we also should start looking seriously now at money and what it means. I thought you might have been nodding towards Gold in your post youngdan but you didn't and anyway you know I don't believe it's the only way of regulating the money supply and interest which is kind of obscene for the reasons you mention in your post. Money is like cancer in that system.

Conventional economics is dead or dying fast and it's time for a massive rethink I think,
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PostSubject: Re: System Breakdown   Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:18 pm

Ireland does not have the luxary of even debating a gold backed currency because they don't have any gold.
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PostSubject: Re: System Breakdown   Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:26 pm

youngdan wrote:
Ireland does not have the luxary of even debating a gold backed currency because they don't have any gold.

Oh come on, dan...

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/NR/rdonlyres/128F0D9E-35FB-49A1-899D-9393E54FC9FD/0/GOLD.PDF

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/02/ireland.mining?gusrc=rss&feed=networkfront

We just put the children in the river with a couple of pan lids when they ask for pocket money.


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PostSubject: Re: System Breakdown   Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:28 pm

youngdan wrote:
Ireland does not have the luxary of even debating a gold backed currency because they don't have any gold.

There's a load of it in Croagh Patrick, come to that.
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PostSubject: Re: System Breakdown   Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:10 am

youngdan wrote:
It should be clear that what lads like me were saying 18 months ago is now happening. Most have no idea of what is coming.

We are after seeing a bubble being popped. You are being told that it was a property bubble. That was but a result of the main bubble. The bubble that has popped is the debt based Fiat currency bubble. It is called debt based because money is created by borrowing it into existance. Because of the interest rates on the money the amount of money must be continually expanded to allow for new money to be created to pay the interest on the old money. In a debt based system there must always be inflation. That is why there is now talk of borrowing trillions. The expansion has ceased and the system is coming down.

Just so I understand what you are saying.

Are you saying the US dollar will end up like the Italian Lira; 100,000 for a can of Pepsi?
Is this how the collapse of the dollar will look?

and by the way, YD, LOOK OUT Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: System Breakdown   Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:16 am

A million ounces of gold is not to be sniffed at all right but not enough to back a currency and it is privately owned. I saw a lot of lads in Ireland last year that might have worked in South African mines so get them a shovel

What about Tara mine workers possibly getting laid off. 440000 tones between the two metals.

Ireland had 7 tons of gold and they gave it away
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PostSubject: Re: System Breakdown   Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:24 am

Thanks for the warning. I used to post there pretending I was a Korean. No way would they figure it out as I used a Korean name, Yong-dang. They wont get me.
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PostSubject: Re: System Breakdown   Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:26 am

Quote :
South Korea said on Thursday it had arrested an elusive blogger accused of undermining the country’s financial markets with his doom-mongering, ending a case that has illustrated government unease with the growing influence of online ­gossip in the world’s most-wired economy

What a Face Pretty serious stuff, Johnny.

So who took our gold, youngdan?
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PostSubject: Re: System Breakdown   Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:32 am

Nobody took it, Cowen gave it to the ECB as part of a 15% gold backing to the Euro. A outright con job because the ECB turned round and sold it.

Who ever bought it is laughing.
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PostSubject: Re: System Breakdown   Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:39 am

youngdan wrote:
Nobody took it, Cowen gave it to the ECB as part of a 15% gold backing to the Euro. A outright con job because the ECB turned round and sold it.

Who ever bought it is laughing.
What was the minister for foreign affairs doing with our gold?
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PostSubject: Re: System Breakdown   Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:41 am

Johnny Keogh wrote:
and by the way, YD, LOOK OUT Laughing
good for them.
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PostSubject: Re: System Breakdown   Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:48 am

It is not your gold any longer Tony so don't refer to it as OUR GOLD.
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PostSubject: Re: System Breakdown   Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:50 am

youngdan wrote:
It is not your gold any longer Tony so don't refer to it as OUR GOLD.
"was" ?
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PostSubject: Re: System Breakdown   Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:01 am

Who gives a flying toss about the gold though? Isn't productive capacity, visitors as tourists, natural resources, human ingenuity, morale and ambitions of the populace etc. - aren't these things the true Gold of economies nowadays as it's going out of fashion even as a precious item. Tools are now giving their chicks platinum when they propose or white gold whatever that is but I'd say it's 1% gold and 94% aluminium and then a secret ingredient.

Seriously, the only reason I'd see gold being something special is that if there were aliens who would come down here and loot the planet for it. Those with the gold would be rewarded, those without, vaporised. The aliens would then take it back to their planet and use it liberally as some superstitious cure for baldness or some shite.
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PostSubject: Re: System Breakdown   Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:29 am

You are stuck in the past Tony.

It Was Our gold, now in the present it IS not Your
gold.

So don't refer to it as OUR GOLD

Get a grip Audi. Gold is 860 dollars an ounce. If you find any pick it up
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PostSubject: Re: System Breakdown   Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:36 am

youngdan wrote:
You are stuck in the past Tony.

It Was Our gold, now in the present it IS not Your
gold.

So don't refer to it as OUR GOLD
“was” it Cowen or “was” it not.
Come on now YD, you’re very fond of telling us how you don’t mind admitting when you’re wrong, so stump up now and stop your wafflin’
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PostSubject: Re: System Breakdown   Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:39 am

Auditor #9 wrote:
Who gives a flying toss about the gold though? Isn't productive capacity, visitors as tourists, natural resources, human ingenuity, morale and ambitions of the populace etc. - aren't these things the true Gold of economies nowadays as it's going out of fashion even as a precious item. Tools are now giving their chicks platinum when they propose or white gold whatever that is but I'd say it's 1% gold and 94% aluminium and then a secret ingredient.

Seriously, the only reason I'd see gold being something special is that if there were aliens who would come down here and loot the planet for it. Those with the gold would be rewarded, those without, vaporised. The aliens would then take it back to their planet and use it liberally as some superstitious cure for baldness or some shite.

One of the top visitor attractions in Hong Kong is a gold toilet - that is a seriously productive use for the stuff.
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PostSubject: Re: System Breakdown   Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:39 am

youngdan wrote:
You are stuck in the past Tony.

It Was Our gold, now in the present it IS not Your
gold.

So don't refer to it as OUR GOLD

Get a grip Audi. Gold is 860 dollars an ounce. If you find any pick it up

Well it wouldnt be any harm if the country built up its gold reserves afresh.

Heres a thought - Dont announce anything, just send out the Gardi and the army to all the wealthy houses one night and confescate all the gold in the country and put away in a national valut. It would belong to state but the state could never use it(only in a bankrupting emergency) At least we'd have something to show for the boom.
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PostSubject: Re: System Breakdown   Fri Jan 09, 2009 2:02 am

Sorry Tony, with all your waffling I did not pay attention to my own waffling. When the transfer took place my buddy was in fact not the minister of finance or indeed the minister of foreign affairs but was a lowly minister of health.

So for this particular sin he is only due the blame of an assenting voice at cabinet and that is small for his position at the time.

So in this instance and frequently elsewhere I have maligned him wrongly as it was Bertie and McGreevy to blame. So a big fat assumption and mistake on my part.

Whatever happened to McGreevey, after giving away the Irish gold, it would noyt surprise me if he got a big EU job.
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PostSubject: Re: System Breakdown   Fri Jan 09, 2009 2:05 am

Respvblica wrote:
youngdan wrote:
You are stuck in the past Tony.

It Was Our gold, now in the present it IS not Your
gold.

So don't refer to it as OUR GOLD

Get a grip Audi. Gold is 860 dollars an ounce. If you find any pick it up

Well it wouldnt be any harm if the country built up its gold reserves afresh.

Heres a thought - Dont announce anything, just send out the Gardi and the army to all the wealthy houses one night and confescate all the gold in the country and put away in a national valut. It would belong to state but the state could never use it(only in a bankrupting emergency) At least we'd have something to show for the boom.
Yes it helped us get rid of those pesky rights.
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PostSubject: Re: System Breakdown   Fri Jan 09, 2009 2:34 am

Auditor #9 wrote:
Who gives a flying toss about the gold though? Isn't productive capacity, visitors as tourists, natural resources, human ingenuity, morale and ambitions of the populace etc. - aren't these things the true Gold of economies nowadays as it's going out of fashion even as a precious item. Tools are now giving their chicks platinum when they propose or white gold whatever that is but I'd say it's 1% gold and 94% aluminium and then a secret ingredient.

Seriously, the only reason I'd see gold being something special is that if there were aliens who would come down here and loot the planet for it. Those with the gold would be rewarded, those without, vaporised. The aliens would then take it back to their planet and use it liberally as some superstitious cure for baldness or some shite.

Kind of with you on that one Auditor - I've never had the gold obsession myself - always seemed quite ridiculous to me to peg the worth of everything in the world to a shiny malleable tho non corruptable metal that has few enough uses apart from purely decorative - except in electronics,dentistry and spacecraft.

When you think of it - it is estimated that in all history only 160,000 tons of it has ever been mined - thats roughly 4.9 Trillion USD dollars at todays prices and gold hasn't always been at todays prices - and the extraction of it is getting harder and harder as all the easy seams have been mined and the extractive processes used are the most toxic and destructive to the environment in the mining industry and over 30% of all the gold extracted every year comes from child labour and other slave labour outfits in the third world where the miner or herself get less than 20$usd a gram( in one mine in Peru - the miners work for 6 days on 14 hour shifts for the chance on the 7th day to go into the mine and are allowed grab as much rock as they can carry - what gold they find it -they can keep - thats their wage! -its a lottery - total bollox )- you cant eat it,can't use to produce energy, fertilize crops -its purely a magpie thing - attraction to shiny things - might aswell be sea shells - funny the way humans prioritise things in their lives - as the Author of "the power of Gold" himself put it "Its never been clear if we have gold -or gold has us"

If like YD has suggested we all leg it back to Gold as the only currency of exchange - stand by for a vastly impoverished world with little or no growth and one with the lungs and body ripped out of it in a futile attempt to get rich - there was a point to the tale of Midas.
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