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 Land Access - Where do YOU stand?

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PostSubject: Land Access - Where do YOU stand?   Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:57 pm

I'm sick of the agri thread being empty - and until the charter gets something the temptation to declare myself lord and master will be there (I called it first) - so I thought I'd drag this one up from the past, stir things a little around here.

As expected, nothing real happened (yet) on the ground. But not so long ago, hiker assosiations and Irish Times columnists were up in arms over the restrictions on land access put in place by farmers and landowners. Farmers were being blamed for sucking the EU and the taxpayer dry while giving nothing back, living the life while polluting the place with their holiday homes, SUVs and country villas, pedestrian deaths and even increased obesity.

To be fair the farmers were pretty hystrical, claiming that no one else was expected to put their children in danger by letting strangers in close. And they were perfectly happy to roll out the welcome mat as long as they got some hefty compensation. But a lot of it was hysterical.

It takes a lot to get me sympathetic to the Irish Farmers Assosiation, but the Hillwalkers' group managed it, with their whining letters to the papers. That's just me though, an old-fashioned foo, who can't help but think that if you own something (like land) you should have some say over it. But don't my crazy ramblings. Where do ye stand on the issue?
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PostSubject: Re: Land Access - Where do YOU stand?   Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:55 pm

I stand on the fence on this one - I think far more off road walks are needed, but farmes and farmers need protection from daft jackeens.
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PostSubject: Re: Land Access - Where do YOU stand?   Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:02 pm

I know there is an official IFA line on this somewhere and I know that it's very different for people in hilly areas than it is for us here on the flatlands but...
... we have land here and have arrived out on a summer's morning to find people camped in a field.

There's no problem with that at all - if people would ask. We have, however, two bulls, neither of which are wicked but with which no one in their right mind should share a field with - particularly in the late summer when they are horny and cranky as hell. Pardon me if I'm a bit cynical about the attititude of many urban dwellers to the practical realities of life on the land.

Littering is a case in point, if only minor one.

My view on the hilly areas - and maybe cm knows more about the liability and insurance angle and would fill us in - is that if people want to walk through farm land there should be walks provided that are safe, fenced and animal proof. And that farmers should not have to be individually responsible for the development or maintenance of such walks and that they should be compensated. If your local council expected a right of way through your garden for a new project, you'd expect to be compensated for your loss. That's what compensation does.

Having said that, I haven't been following the debate very much so I don't know where negotiations stand at the moment.

I'd love to see more people have access to areas of natural beauty - it's important for the soul as well as for tourism, for example. But any decisions reached have to be sustainable, viable and of as little inconvenience as possible to both parties.
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PostSubject: Re: Land Access - Where do YOU stand?   Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:04 pm

IM IN YR GARDEN LOOKIN IN YR WINDOWS
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PostSubject: Re: Land Access - Where do YOU stand?   Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:35 pm

ibis wrote:
IM IN YR GARDEN LOOKIN IN YR WINDOWS

And I've got a crack Special Branch squad at my disposal. Your point?
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PostSubject: Re: Land Access - Where do YOU stand?   Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:45 pm

I'm tempted to say "IM IN YR CRACK LOOKIN AT YR DISPOSAL", but I won't. The option was there, though.


Last edited by ibis on Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Land Access - Where do YOU stand?   Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:46 pm

ibis wrote:
I'm tempted to say "IM IN YR CRACK LOOKIN AT YR DISPOSAL", but I won't.

Classy. Will you be able to say that after 24 hours of Chinese Water Torture?
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PostSubject: Re: Land Access - Where do YOU stand?   Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:49 pm

ibis wrote:
I'm tempted to say "IM IN YR CRACK LOOKIN AT YR DISPOSAL", but I won't. The option was there, though.


Have you been drinking, ibis?


Last edited by Kate P on Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:50 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : grammar)
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PostSubject: Re: Land Access - Where do YOU stand?   Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:51 pm

Kate P wrote:
ibis wrote:
I'm tempted to say "IM IN YR CRACK LOOKIN AT YR DISPOSAL", but I won't. The option was there, though.


Have you been drinking, ibis?

Well, with the water-boarding I've also got planned for the invader, he will be.


Last edited by Ard-Taoiseach on Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Land Access - Where do YOU stand?   Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:51 pm

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:
ibis wrote:
I'm tempted to say "IM IN YR CRACK LOOKIN AT YR DISPOSAL", but I won't.

Classy. Will you be able to say that after 24 hours of Chinese Water Torture?

Probably. It's hardly a tongue-twister!

Kate P wrote:
Have you been drinking ibis?

It's gremlins - who have also stolen your comma!


Last edited by ibis on Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Land Access - Where do YOU stand?   Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:52 pm

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:
Kate P wrote:
ibis wrote:
I'm tempted to say "IM IN YR CRACK LOOKIN AT YR DISPOSAL", but I won't. The option was there, though.


Have you been drinking ibis?

Well, with the water-boarding I've also got planned for the invader, he will be.

Hmm. So I take it your views on private property are stringent?
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PostSubject: Re: Land Access - Where do YOU stand?   Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:54 pm

ibis wrote:
Ard-Taoiseach wrote:
Kate P wrote:
ibis wrote:
I'm tempted to say "IM IN YR CRACK LOOKIN AT YR DISPOSAL", but I won't. The option was there, though.


Have you been drinking ibis?

Well, with the water-boarding I've also got planned for the invader, he will be.

Hmm. So I take it your views on private property are stringent?

I would say selective. I'm annoyed with the creme brulée I was served at dinner by the help tonight. I'm feeling angry. This is therapy.
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PostSubject: Re: Land Access - Where do YOU stand?   Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:55 pm

What on earth are you guys on about ?
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PostSubject: Re: Land Access - Where do YOU stand?   Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:59 pm

Husband -who knows these things - says that a deal has been made between landowners, hillwalkers and Eamon O'Cuiv's dept.

There will be designated walk with landowner co-operation. There will be a small payment for maintaining the road.
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PostSubject: Re: Land Access - Where do YOU stand?   Wed Apr 02, 2008 12:13 am

Kate P wrote:
Husband -who knows these things - says that a deal has been made between landowners, hillwalkers and Eamon O'Cuiv's dept.

There will be designated walk with landowner co-operation. There will be a small payment for maintaining the road.

That sounds fairly reasonable. I've walked over a lot of Ireland (while studying geology), including popping out of streams into people's gardens. Most people have been very good about it.

Like the OP, I find the 'open access' people very whiny, which is a shame, because I'm strongly in favour of open access.
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PostSubject: Re: Land Access - Where do YOU stand?   Wed Apr 02, 2008 3:57 am

Do you mean 'Keep Ireland Open' 905? Do they get on yer tets?

I'd like it a lot if there was more open, common land around Ireland - National Park areas, special conservation areas and a bit more space for countryside recreation. I just don't think we have the weather for too much of any of this... still, we need a lot more forestry I think and that in itself is both an amenity for recreation and a resource for burning and sometimes building. Some people even think some forestry is beautiful ...

We could do with being able to walk across fields and fields if we wanted but there are so many cows around who would chase you... Can these not be put into electric fields like in Germany away from people so the people can enjoy the countryside a bit more? There are loads of walking areas in that country and also in Killarney too.

We would not be doing a bad thing by replicating Killarney all over the country and doing the National Park thing with whole parishes of Clare and Galway and even more of Kerry and West Cork. Some people are just mental and do nutty stuff like run up feckin mountains Very Happy for sport . The likes of them lunatics would come here with and without bikes and frolic around in all sorts of inclement weather.

We could do a lot with this country if there was a roof on it - but there isn't (some crowd of councillors were talking about putting a glass roof over the streets in Tuam there once..) and the weather that is appropriate for the 'great' outdoors happens to be about 6 weeks of the year scattered throughout as the weather decides.
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PostSubject: Re: Land Access - Where do YOU stand?   Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:02 am

Interesting post, Auditor,

Quote :
I'd like it a lot if there was more open, common land around Ireland - National Park areas, special conservation areas and a bit more space for countryside recreation. I just don't think we have the weather for too much of any of this... still, we need a lot more forestry I think and that in itself is both an amenity for recreation and a resource for burning and sometimes building. Some people even think some forestry is beautiful ...


People who enjoy the outdoors don't really care about the weather.

Re forestry: Maybe you mean to distinguish between forestry - which is virtually industrial in nature, closely planted and quite samey; and woodlands which are more recreational because of being less closely planted and often having pathways and water in some form or other.

SACs to my understanding are not automatically opened to the public.

Quote :
We could do with being able to walk across fields and fields if we wanted but there are so many cows around who would chase you... Can these not be put into electric fields like in Germany away from people so the people can enjoy the countryside a bit more? There are loads of walking areas in that country and also in Killarney too.

Wasn't there a story in the last year of an elderly woman who went walking her dog in fields and was killed by marauding cattle?

As for putting them into electric fields??? Because of our grass based agricultural economy, it's unlikely to happen in the way you suggest... One could also point out that there's plenty of countryside there as it is without shifting cattle out of fields which are of limited natural beauty anyway.

I'm not sure of the reasoning behind wanting to walk across fields and fields unless it's perhaps because one can't at the present.

Wicklow also has lots of walking areas but you might find that walkers and walking paths abound in areas of natural beauty - as opposed to regular fields and private property.
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PostSubject: Re: Land Access - Where do YOU stand?   Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:18 am

What's an electric field, is it like the Matrix? If you mean an electric fence, those things are common enough around the place (I should know ). They are of limited use against a determined beast.

Cattle are becoming more wild because of the shift away from dairy farming, meaning that less cattle are being brought up by hand.

Oh, and a lot of sheep were infected with rabies in preperation for the hillwalkers' assault so watch out for them. Only joking.
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PostSubject: Re: Land Access - Where do YOU stand?   Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:29 am

Electric fences I meant. Couldn't they be put away behind electric fences inside the fields leaving margins around the fences where people can walk? I know this won't happen but here's to hoping. I just have sometimes an urge to want to walk in a line as the crow flies across the countryside but not very often. In a lot of countries you'd be surprised how easy it might be to do this.

Interesting that cows have become less domesticated since their subjection to the machines ..
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PostSubject: Re: Land Access - Where do YOU stand?   Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:38 am

Margins cost money I'm afraid, do you want the IFA demanding more compensation? And like I said, they're not entirely effective.

People should manage in fields just fine, so long as they're not complete idiots (or townies). The cattle are a little madder but they're not exactly ravenous. And dairy farming has made a small comeback in recent times, so weshould have more docile Daisys around the place soon.
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PostSubject: Re: Land Access - Where do YOU stand?   Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:46 pm

I think the "right to roam" is an excellent principle. It does not need to be limited to outdoors though. Last week some rural tourists walked into our office in their macs. They had a good mooch around peering at the walls and over our shoulders before silently mooching out again.

I think it is fine but should also be applied to urban areas. I should like to have a good mooch around Libertas's offices and the Drumcondra hot spots, check out the latest bathroom fittings in D4 etc.
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PostSubject: Re: Land Access - Where do YOU stand?   Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:30 pm

cactus flower wrote:
I think the "right to roam" is an excellent principle. It does not need to be limited to outdoors though. Last week some rural tourists walked into our office in their macs. They had a good mooch around peering at the walls and over our shoulders before silently mooching out again.
Tourists? Are you sure they weren't Auditors #4, 5 and 6? Very Happy

Is Right to Roam different from Access? I'm thinking of all that gorgeous lump of rock in the Burren - who owns that? Surely no-one. And is squatters rights also a potential problem with giving people access? Flippin crusties..

Quote :
I think it is fine but should also be applied to urban areas. I should like to have a good mooch around Libertas's offices and the Drumcondra hot spots, check out the latest bathroom fittings in D4 etc.
There is clearly an atmosphere of increased emotion in the country now that the Leader has decided to fock off.
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PostSubject: Re: Land Access - Where do YOU stand?   Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:56 am

Quote :
People should manage in fields just fine, so long as they're not complete idiots (or townies). The cattle are a little madder but they're not exactly ravenous. And dairy farming has made a small comeback in recent times, so weshould have more docile Daisys around the place soon.

Cattle (fattened for beef) and cows (for dairy or breeding cattle) are herbivores - it's not like they attack people because they're hungry...

Outside my window now are 6 bony cows and their seven very frisky month old calves. That's six bony, very protective, very maternal calves who don't like strangers around their babies and will make their feelings very clear unless you happen to be carrying a bag of meal...

It's an interesting argument that you make about cattle/cows being more docile when they're handled more. Certainly dairy cows are inclined to be easier to manage than cattle but a reduction in dairy numbers didn't lead (couldn't lead) to an increase in madness of other cows.

The right to roam is a lovely idea but I wouldn't be happy with people wandering through our land without permission, any more than you'd be happy with finding someone wandering through your back garden without permission.
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PostSubject: Re: Land Access - Where do YOU stand?   Thu Apr 03, 2008 12:51 pm

Kate P wrote:
Outside my window now are 6 bony cows and their seven very frisky month old calves. That's six bony, very protective, very maternal calves who don't like strangers around their babies and will make their feelings very clear unless you happen to be carrying a bag of meal...

It's an interesting argument that you make about cattle/cows being more docile when they're handled more. Certainly dairy cows are inclined to be easier to manage than cattle but a reduction in dairy numbers didn't lead (couldn't lead) to an increase in madness of other cows.

When dairy farming was common the calves were taken from their mothers and brought up by hand, which meant that they were used to people and quite tame. Now that dairy farming has declined calves are being left with their mothers, as in the above case of the seven sucklers. Never mind the mothers, how tame are the calves?

When they are a little older they will be much more difficult to handle than hand-reared calves and more of a threat to walkers. When they have calves, they might be more dangerous than your cows, who are at least more used to people.
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PostSubject: Re: Land Access - Where do YOU stand?   Thu Apr 03, 2008 6:59 pm

Do you farm, 905?
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