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 If the IMF cometh

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PostSubject: If the IMF cometh   Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:26 am

“Once you accept that profit and
greed practiced on a mass scale create the greatest possible benefits
for any society, pretty much any act of personal enrichment can be
justified as a contribution to the great creative cauldron of
capitalism, generating wealth and spurring economic growth-even if
it's only for yourself” (Naomi Klein, 2007, “The shock doctrine”
P. 313 NY Picador)



The boom-bust cycle in Ireland is
in its penultimate phase; the next step is calling in the IMF,
massive privatizations, denial of workplace rights, and the rest of
the "shock doctrine" tactics. The precedents; Chile,
Argentina, South Africa, Russia.....so is there any way we can avoid
it?

There are two; one involves a complete overhaul of our
entire system as radical and oriented to social justice as 1916-1921
and this govt is certainly not going to do that. The second is very
simple mathematically;

1. Get rid of all the non-Irish
freeloaders on our welfare system, saving perhaps E4 million a
week
2. Get rid of all non-Irish doing jobs that can be filled by
Irish people, reducing unemployment



  1. Make redundant all non-essential
    civil servants, ie those not directly dealing with people; this
    completes the book-balancing








Interestingly, this govt has no choice
but to start on this latter plan in advance of the IMF
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PostSubject: Re: If the IMF cometh   Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:07 am

So, when we say "freeloaders", does that include those who were paying taxes, and are now drawing welfare? And how do you suggest the irish government should complete a programme of getting rid of all non-Irish employees without running afoul simultaneously of its own discrimination legislation, and similar EU legislation?

Surprisingly, the last suggestion is actually even more stupid than the previous two, if a good deal less immoral - you can trim administration, record-keeping, oversight, management, but you cannot dispense with them any more than an army can dispense with officers. Erigena, how about you stick to the academia, and stay away from social and economic policy, because if this is the stuff you come up with, I'm forced to say it shows all the intellectual capacity of a teenage skinhead.
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PostSubject: Re: If the IMF cometh   Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:15 am

erigena wrote:




The boom-bust cycle in Ireland is
in its penultimate phase; the next step is calling in the IMF,
massive privatizations, denial of workplace rights, and the rest of
the "shock doctrine" tactics. The precedents; Chile,
Argentina, South Africa, Russia.....so is there any way we can avoid
it?


So you're a socialist who supports workers' rights.

Quote :
There are two; one involves a complete overhaul of our
entire system as radical and oriented to social justice as 1916-1921
and this govt is certainly not going to do that. The second is very
simple mathematically;

1. Get rid of all the non-Irish
freeloaders on our welfare system, saving perhaps E4 million a
week
2. Get rid of all non-Irish doing jobs that can be filled by
Irish people, reducing unemployment

So you're a nationalist who supports workers' rights so long as they're Irish.


Hmmm... A Nationalist Socialist Irish Workers platform. If only you had a party, a strong leader and a snappy logo...
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PostSubject: Re: If the IMF cometh   Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:35 am

erigena wrote:
“Once you accept that profit and
greed practiced on a mass scale create the greatest possible benefits
for any society, pretty much any act of personal enrichment can be
justified as a contribution to the great creative cauldron of
capitalism, generating wealth and spurring economic growth-even if
it's only for yourself” (Naomi Klein, 2007, “The shock doctrine”
P. 313 NY Picador)



The boom-bust cycle in Ireland is
in its penultimate phase; the next step is calling in the IMF,
massive privatizations, denial of workplace rights, and the rest of
the "shock doctrine" tactics. The precedents; Chile,
Argentina, South Africa, Russia.....so is there any way we can avoid
it?

There are two; one involves a complete overhaul of our
entire system as radical and oriented to social justice as 1916-1921
and this govt is certainly not going to do that. The second is very
simple mathematically;

1. Get rid of all the non-Irish
freeloaders on our welfare system, saving perhaps E4 million a
week
What about our own home grown free loaders?
I cannot accept this anti-Irish attitude that says we are not as good as other peoples at anything we put our mind to.
erigena wrote:
2. Get rid of all non-Irish doing jobs that can be filled by
Irish people, reducing unemployment
One small fly I can see in this admittedly otherwise almost perfect ointment, what if word of this clever manoeuvre got out, so to speak. If, for example, the Americans, the Brits, the Australians or others indeed, noticing the successful implementation of your excellent plan decided to copy it, perhaps starting with the Irish (as we would be foremost in their mind, just at that point) and these otherwise descent but uprooted folk arrived back to their home shores, would we not be, well, in some trouble, not to say rightly fucked, in such an event?

erigena wrote:
1. Make redundant all non-essential
civil servants, ie those not directly dealing with people; this
completes the book-balancing
That makes 2 number 1's, I don't know what to say in this situation.


Last edited by tonys on Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:02 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: If the IMF cometh   Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:56 am

tonys wrote:
That makes 2 number 1's, I don't know what to say in this situation.

There's certainly a lot of no. 2 there, along with much no. 1, wind, and bluster.
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PostSubject: Re: If the IMF cometh   Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:58 am

erigena wrote:


1. Get rid of all the non-Irish
freeloaders on our welfare system, saving perhaps E4 million a
week

Fo a start, why do you think you'll save 4mm a week doing this?

Secondly do you realise that this is only 208MM?
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PostSubject: Re: If the IMF cometh   Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:24 am

ibis wrote:
So, when we say "freeloaders", does that include those who were paying taxes, and are now drawing welfare? And how do you suggest the irish government should complete a programme of getting rid of all non-Irish employees without running afoul simultaneously of its own discrimination legislation, and similar EU legislation?

Surprisingly, the last suggestion is actually even more stupid than the previous two, if a good deal less immoral - you can trim administration, record-keeping, oversight, management, but you cannot dispense with them any more than an army can dispense with officers. Erigena, how about you stick to the academia, and stay away from social and economic policy, because if this is the stuff you come up with, I'm forced to say it shows all the intellectual capacity of a teenage skinhead.

perhaps you might wait until you get a few publications in this area before administering such judgements? Darwinism etc not impressive, buddy.

and, btw, you do not seem to have a clue about what your own absolutely immoral political party is doing on a daily basis. they went into govt in 2007 knowing what they were dealing with. I know, as I wrote many of the dail questions they asked . off your high horse!


Last edited by erigena on Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: If the IMF cometh   Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:31 am

Before this goes any further

1.
The IMF is coming

2. What it is about to do is much worse than
portrayed on this discussion group

3. Having lived as an
(involuntary, due to irish state criminality see
http://academictenure.blogspot.com/) emigrant in multicultural
societies for 10 years now, the last thing I would do is justify
deporting people. What this contribution is about is the simple
fact that it is going to happen, da neoin no ainneoin





The math does work. Morally, it is
repugnant, and will be opposed, but to no avail.



shutuplaura wrote:
erigena wrote:


1. Get rid of all the non-Irish
freeloaders on our welfare system, saving perhaps E4 million a
week

Fo a start, why do you think you'll save 4mm a week doing this?

Secondly do you realise that this is only 208MM?
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PostSubject: Re: If the IMF cometh   Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:35 am

as you can see, I'm an admirer of Naomi klein. Nothing else on this topic.

toxic avenger wrote:
erigena wrote:




The boom-bust cycle in Ireland is
in its penultimate phase; the next step is calling in the IMF,
massive privatizations, denial of workplace rights, and the rest of
the "shock doctrine" tactics. The precedents; Chile,
Argentina, South Africa, Russia.....so is there any way we can avoid
it?


So you're a socialist who supports workers' rights.

Quote :
There are two; one involves a complete overhaul of our
entire system as radical and oriented to social justice as 1916-1921
and this govt is certainly not going to do that. The second is very
simple mathematically;

1. Get rid of all the non-Irish
freeloaders on our welfare system, saving perhaps E4 million a
week
2. Get rid of all non-Irish doing jobs that can be filled by
Irish people, reducing unemployment

So you're a nationalist who supports workers' rights so long as they're Irish.


Hmmm... A Nationalist Socialist Irish Workers platform. If only you had a party, a strong leader and a snappy logo...
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PostSubject: Re: If the IMF cometh   Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:38 am

erigena wrote:
ibis wrote:
So, when we say "freeloaders", does that include those who were paying taxes, and are now drawing welfare? And how do you suggest the irish government should complete a programme of getting rid of all non-Irish employees without running afoul simultaneously of its own discrimination legislation, and similar EU legislation?

Surprisingly, the last suggestion is actually even more stupid than the previous two, if a good deal less immoral - you can trim administration, record-keeping, oversight, management, but you cannot dispense with them any more than an army can dispense with officers. Erigena, how about you stick to the academia, and stay away from social and economic policy, because if this is the stuff you come up with, I'm forced to say it shows all the intellectual capacity of a teenage skinhead.

perhaps you might wait until you get a few publications in this area before administering such judgements?

No, I think anyone who can vote can judge a policy suggestion, and it's not as if these are in any way complicated suggestions - stupid, and immoral, certainly, but not complicated. There seems little requirement to hold to academic standards suggestions that are: (a) are not anywhere near academic quality; (b) of general application, and; (c) well outside the suggester's field of academic expertise in any case.

Last but not least, publication doesn't equal value, and the further one goes in the direction of semiotic obfuscation, the more so. How about you wait until you've supported yourself in the real world for a couple of decades? It might knock some of these simplistic notions out of you.
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PostSubject: Re: If the IMF cometh   Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:48 am

I agree.
This is a very simple point about what the Irish state is likely to do

erigena wrote:
as you can see, I'm an admirer of Naomi klein. Nothing else on this topic.

toxic avenger wrote:
erigena wrote:




The boom-bust cycle in Ireland is
in its penultimate phase; the next step is calling in the IMF,
massive privatizations, denial of workplace rights, and the rest of
the "shock doctrine" tactics. The precedents; Chile,
Argentina, South Africa, Russia.....so is there any way we can avoid
it?


So you're a socialist who supports workers' rights.

Quote :
There are two; one involves a complete overhaul of our
entire system as radical and oriented to social justice as 1916-1921
and this govt is certainly not going to do that. The second is very
simple mathematically;

1. Get rid of all the non-Irish
freeloaders on our welfare system, saving perhaps E4 million a
week
2. Get rid of all non-Irish doing jobs that can be filled by
Irish people, reducing unemployment

So you're a nationalist who supports workers' rights so long as they're Irish.


Hmmm... A Nationalist Socialist Irish Workers platform. If only you had a party, a strong leader and a snappy logo...
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PostSubject: Re: If the IMF cometh   Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:58 am

ibis wrote:
erigena wrote:
ibis wrote:
So, when we say "freeloaders", does that include those who were paying taxes, and are now drawing welfare? And how do you suggest the irish government should complete a programme of getting rid of all non-Irish employees without running afoul simultaneously of its own discrimination legislation, and similar EU legislation?

Surprisingly, the last suggestion is actually even more stupid than the previous two, if a good deal less immoral - you can trim administration, record-keeping, oversight, management, but you cannot dispense with them any more than an army can dispense with officers. Erigena, how about you stick to the academia, and stay away from social and economic policy, because if this is the stuff you come up with, I'm forced to say it shows all the intellectual capacity of a teenage skinhead.

perhaps you might wait until you get a few publications in this area before administering such judgements?


Last but not least, publication doesn't equal value, and the further one goes in the direction of semiotic obfuscation, the more so. How about you wait until you've supported yourself in the real world for a couple of decades? It might knock some of these simplistic notions out of you.


I have absolutely no idea whom you
think you're talking to. However, not only have I had to support
myself and my musician partner in the real world for several
decades, but I've had to do so in the face of massive opposition from
the Irish state. Google (Irish music scam) and you will know what I
mean. You will note that your Gomgreen heroes emerge in quite a
different light there.




What I will not do is to be further
punished by insinuation that we are in some way incompetent, that
Irish culture is in some way inferior to the garbage pushed by this
government (Westlife, BS I love you etc) or that it is immoral to
portray Irish culture as a very positive thing.




So Turn up Ronan Keating on your Ipod,
baby, and dream on!
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PostSubject: Re: If the IMF cometh   Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:07 am

It appears you have as little clue about what I might be like as you say I do of you. Well, perhaps so.

I'm comfortable with my comments on your, er, policy suggestions. I'm not sure exactly how you get to the idea that I think Irish culture is immoral from my comments, but I think I can guess, and if I'm interested in that kind of obtuseness, youngdan at least has the saving grace of being amusing.


Last edited by ibis on Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:10 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: If the IMF cometh   Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:09 am

pangur wrote:
I agree.
This is a very simple point about what the Irish state is likely to do

You've created a new username to agree with yourself? At seven in the morning? I'm convinced by you now...
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PostSubject: Re: If the IMF cometh   Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:12 am

toxic avenger wrote:
pangur wrote:
I agree.
This is a very simple point about what the Irish state is likely to do

You've created a new username to agree with yourself? At seven in the morning? I'm convinced by you now...

Shame he uses exactly the same posting style (even to being the only user who quotes after his own comments). Perhaps he feels that he needs to be a mousecatcher more than a scholar when dealing with us simple souls?
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PostSubject: Re: If the IMF cometh   Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:16 am

Erigena recognises the scope of the problem and has suggested some solutions. He wants to hack the civil service down to size. An excellent suggestion. Now that Ireland is going into a European superstate why do we need 30000 wankers pushing papers. Can not the wankers in the county councils push an extra few sheets for them and save about 2 billion a year.

There is one lad in Dublin who could be the first to go. His name and address are public knowledge and is given here

http://fundrace.huffingtonpost.com/neighbors.php?type=emp&employer=Irish+Civil+Service

This lad has more money than sense and if he does not have a green card or US citizenship he broke the law and could face prison here. I am a nice guy and will give him the benefit of the doubt.

There ya go Erigena, your taxes went to the American election. How do ya like that.
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PostSubject: Re: If the IMF cometh   Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:35 am

If the choice is cutting back on everything (no exceptions) or having the bunch of pricks known as the IMF in your wallet, then the cutbacks are the only way. I would not let the IMF run a hot-dog stand. Useless bunch of bastards who make a pigs breakfast of everything they touch. Close Shannon Airport so they must arrive in Dublin. It makes it easier to shoot them as they arrive.
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PostSubject: Re: If the IMF cometh   Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:26 pm

Pangur, Our Charter below for your reference - Rules and Legal/B14

http://machinenation.forumakers.com/charter-f14/machine-nation-charter-and-rules-t643.htm
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PostSubject: Re: If the IMF cometh   Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:43 pm

This is a timely topic for discussion.
As a mod I would like to warn both erigena and Ibis that it is not the occasion for personal attacks in either direction. They are off topic and contrary to the Charter.

Naomi Klein is an internationalist whose whole work is based on the principle that people of all states and none are of equal worth. She wouldn't countenance 1. in erigena's list.

Splitting people up to fight amongst themselves over race would be one way of distracting people from the real causes of the system failure that is going on internationally.

Please study the Charter. Outings and multiple identities are both destructive of good debate and are banning offences.
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PostSubject: Re: If the IMF cometh   Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:47 pm

Kells Angel published this list on the ISEQ P.ie thread yesterday. Controversial stuff but along the lines we should be trying to think I think. Cost cutting is great but we need to generate wealth too and there are plenty of natural resources in this country. Eamon Ryan was talking about introducing a Carbon Tax which I've a feeling would help. I always see it as one sort of ceiling on printing of money, money allowed to be printed that is.

http://www.politics.ie/economy/19036-iseq-crash-deepens-down-over-70-a-461.html#post1351262
H.R. Haldeman wrote:
Could anyone actually write a list of where €8b might come from? There's all this noise about slashing the PS and so forth, but I have no idea how much even massively radical change there could do. Is it even in the billions?

Can anyone come up with anything else that even nearly meets that kind os shortfall? I am at a complete loss as to where that money could be found even if you had the political balls to halve the pension or stop funding for the arts or other such draconian measures.

kellsangel wrote:

Department of Agriculture
Farm Grants, Reps, Subsidies 50% reduction saving €950Million
Development Aid eliminate saving €850Million
Public pay bill reduction by 10% also reducing tax take
saving €1200million
Disband the 75% of the army or hire them out to
the UN saving €600 million

Hire the remainder to the UN raising €200million
Disband the Air Corps
Social Welfare 10% cutback saving €1050 million



Reduce social welfare rent allowance by 25%
( interest rates lower)

Levy rates on the equity only in rented residential property
raising €500 million
Reduce public representatives salaries, expenses, pensions by 33%

Introduce a land tax of €20 per acre on arable land
10,000,000 acres x 40 raising €400 million

Levies on Rural one off houses raised to €30,000
x 15,000 raising €450 million

Double Land registry fees (maintaining revenue) raising €000million

Introduce a loan scheme to cover the cost of
Third level Education saving €1500 million

Department of the gaeltacht half budget saving €180 million

Rent Reduction for property rented by
the state less 33% saving €50 million

Net 15% CGT tax on principle residence with roll
over relief
increase inheritance tax, gift tax,
raising 1000 million

Abolish stamp duty on residential property
reduce it on commercial property to 2%

Increase development levies and for
urban development by 100%

Levy a tax of 10% pa on undeveloped zoned
land.

Limit tax relief on pension contributions to the lower rate

Hold a Tax Amnesty to raise 20 billion to recapitalise the Banks and Nationalise them
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PostSubject: Re: If the IMF cometh   Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:22 pm

Review the NDP for goodness sake. Very costly projects there (many billions) some of which have a small employment component.

Back to the rest of this later.
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PostSubject: Re: If the IMF cometh   Thu Jan 08, 2009 3:23 pm

Auditor #9 wrote:

kellsangel wrote:


  1. Department of Agriculture Farm Grants, Reps, Subsidies 50% reduction saving €950Million
  2. Development Aid eliminate saving €850Million
  3. Public pay bill reduction by 10% also reducing tax take saving €1200million
  4. Disband the 75% of the army or hire them out to the UN saving €600 million
  5. Hire the remainder to the UN raising €200million
  6. Disband the Air Corps
  7. Social Welfare 10% cutback saving €1050 million
  8. Reduce social welfare rent allowance by 25%(interest rates lower)
  9. Levy rates on the equity only in rented residential property raising €500 million
  10. Reduce public representatives salaries, expenses, pensions by 33%
  11. Introduce a land tax of €20 per acre on arable land 10,000,000 acres x 40 raising €400 million
  12. Levies on Rural one off houses raised to €30,000 x 15,000 raising €450 million
  13. Double Land registry fees (maintaining revenue) raising €000million
  14. Introduce a loan scheme to cover the cost of Third level Education saving €1500 million
  15. Department of the gaeltacht half budget saving €180 million
  16. Rent Reduction for property rented by the state less 33% saving €50 million
  17. Net 15% CGT tax on principle residence with roll over relief increase inheritance tax, gift tax, raising 1000 million
  18. Abolish stamp duty on residential property reduce it on commercial property to 2%
  19. Increase development levies and for urban development by 100%
  20. Levy a tax of 10% pa on undeveloped zoned land.
  21. Limit tax relief on pension contributions to the lower rate
  22. Hold a Tax Amnesty to raise 20 billion to recapitalise the Banks and Nationalise them
While I disagree with the red highlighted suggestions on the gounds they are taking from the poor, he at least deserves credit for compiling such a list. Those in green I'd have no problem with.

The issue of a loan scheme for Third Level is also going to be controversial. Personally, I think education always pays for itself in the long run and it ought to be seen by the State as a long term investment worth making. Reintroducing fees or setting up a loan system is just going to erect barriers for some people (usually the least well off).

Cutting 50% off farm payments is surely going to break a significant number of farmers and drive them off the land? Is this good social policy?

I'm not sure of the practicality of disbanding entirely the Army & Air Corps? The Air Corps maybe, but then I think we should be spending far more on the Navy anyway to effectively manage our enormous marine resources.

It's not clear to me what how reducing stamp duty raises funds?

I wouldn't be cutting the Dept of Gaeltacht funding by half without knowing what services would be discontinued as a result. What do they do anyway?

What sort of funds could be realised if we introduced a property tax on all residential property other than primary residences? (Holiday homes, rental property)

Reducing tax relief on pensions contributions is probably a good idea, but it will on exacerbate the medium term pension problem by discouraging people from starting or staying in schemes.

Rather than a tax amnesty to fund nationalisation fo the banks, why not just buy them on the open market? They are essentially worthless. Better still, just seize the banks we need and let the rest fend for themselves.

My own few suggestions:

  1. Sell stake in Aer Lingus
  2. RPT on all second and subsequent residential properties
  3. Property Tax on Church Land.
  4. Break up RTE. Retain only broadcast infrastructure and sell Montrose and move base to Athlone.
  5. Break up ESB. Retain only eirgrid.
  6. Ban on use of 'consultants' by Government.
  7. No payment for people appointed to state boards.
  8. TD's to earn average industrial wage. Ministers to earn twice that. Taoiseach thrice that.
  9. Abolition of all Junior Ministers.
  10. No state funds whatsoever for Private Schools or Private Hospitals.
  11. Reorganise tax system into three bands 20%, 40% & 60% for low, medium and high earners. Let those who can afford to pay more, rather than just gouging PAYE sector as usual. What would the tax take be if we paid no tax on anything below 15k, 20% on income between 15k-40k, 40% on income between 40k-80k and 60% on everything above 80k?
  12. Abolish VAT on food and clothing.
That's my dirty dozen. Needless to say I haven't bothered my hole to cost any of this and they are mostly just a reflection of my own prejudices, but they'd surely raise a few bob.
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PostSubject: Re: If the IMF cometh   Thu Jan 08, 2009 3:50 pm

coc wrote:

I'm not sure of the practicality of disbanding entirely the Army & Air Corps? The Air Corps maybe, but then I think we should be spending far more on the Navy anyway to effectively manage our enormous marine resources.

The Air Corps is a vital part of our strategy to effectively manage our enormous marine resources. Boats aren't much use if they don't know where to go and who is in our waters. The Air Corps provides a huge strategic support to the Navy.


Quote :
I wouldn't be cutting the Dept of Gaeltacht funding by half without knowing what services would be discontinued as a result. What do they do anyway?

It is Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs... their area also includes support for community and voluntary projects as well as the regulation of charities... of which there is little.

Quote :

What sort of funds could be realised if we introduced a property tax on all residential property other than primary residences? (Holiday homes, rental property)

We already do, you pay tax on your rental income and the last budget introduced a levy on holiday homes. Perhaps you would like it to be increased.
Quote :

Reducing tax relief on pensions contributions is probably a good idea, but it will on exacerbate the medium term pension problem by discouraging people from starting or staying in schemes.

Reducing it won't necessarily do that... it shouldn't be abolished, but reduced perhaps.

Quote :
Rather than a tax amnesty to fund nationalisation fo the banks, why not just buy them on the open market? They are essentially worthless. Better still, just seize the banks we need and let the rest fend for themselves.

It is unlikely that this would be allowed by European Competition Law. The policing of Competition Law seems to be relaxed at the moment but fullscale nationalisation would, in my opinion, be blocked by the EU. I don't think it would be a good thing anyway.

Quote :
My own few suggestions:

  1. Sell stake in Aer Lingus
  2. RPT on all second and subsequent residential properties
  3. Property Tax on Church Land.
  4. Break up RTE. Retain only broadcast infrastructure and sell Montrose and move base to Athlone.
  5. Break up ESB. Retain only eirgrid.
  6. Ban on use of 'consultants' by Government.
  7. No payment for people appointed to state boards.
  8. TD's to earn average industrial wage. Ministers to earn twice that. Taoiseach thrice that.
  9. Abolition of all Junior Ministers.
  10. No state funds whatsoever for Private Schools or Private Hospitals.
  11. Reorganise tax system into three bands 20%, 40% & 60% for low, medium and high earners. Let those who can afford to pay more, rather than just gouging PAYE sector as usual. What would the tax take be if we paid no tax on anything below 15k, 20% on income between 15k-40k, 40% on income between 40k-80k and 60% on everything above 80k?
  12. Abolish VAT on food and clothing.
1. Probably a good idea provided market indicators suggest we are getting a decent price. I don't know enough to know if we are but it would be stupid to sell it if the indicators are we would get a better price in a years time... we probably wouldn't though.
2. This already exists on holiday homes since the last budget and as I said people pay tax on their rental income but perhaps you want a form of rates introduced on rented homes. How will you stop them passing the cost on to tenants?
3. Where did you cook this one up and what is the justification for it? Will you be including a tax on schools which are under the patronage of Churches and will you support such a tax on the property of all organisations with charitable status?
4. Selling the Montrose base was an obvious one and has been an obvious one for the last decade, sadly they have largely missed the boat on this one. I don't know why they didn't do it 5 years ago. They should have sold 90% of that site maintaining the bit at the end where they do their sets. They should have then built a great office block and major broadcast centre in the City Centre like most big broadcasters have and they would still have made a profit of hundreds of million. I disagree with the sale of the state broadcaster though, I think it lacks foresight and will likely result in reduced educational and informative programming.
5. Break up of ESB would be a good thing provided their is decent price regulation and the maintaining of the grid, as you allude to, is enormously important.
6. "Ban"? Seems a bit extreme. This is one of those very difficult things to implement. A ban is a nonsense which cannot work, what about when the Government requires and independent and impartial report? In that situation you need them. On the otherhand any commitment to a reduction of their use is going to be unenforceable.
7. Reduced payment perhaps, no payment seems wrong. Why should people not get paid for work they are doing?
8. Arguments for and against. You could certainly reduce wages very easily.
9. Abolition of all junior ministers would require the creation of new ministries. For example, the Minister for Children, is a very important one but currently a junior ministry. You would have to elevate this to a full ministry, at additional cost, if you want a complete abolition of junior ministries. A reduction of junior ministries would perhaps be the better option.
10.On what do you base your argument that children attending fee paying schools are not entitled to the same level of Government support as those who do not? This is a discrimination against children, not their parents. Do you also support the means testing of child welfare? It is precisely the same thing but does not appear on your list. It would also be open to many constitutional challenges.
11. A reorganisation of the tax system would be a good thing.
12. Agree insofar as essential food and clothing. VAT should be payable on luxury food and clothing.
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PostSubject: Re: If the IMF cometh   Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:35 pm

coc wrote:
Auditor #9 wrote:

kellsangel wrote:


  1. Department of Agriculture Farm Grants, Reps, Subsidies 50% reduction saving €950Million
  2. Development Aid eliminate saving €850Million
  3. Public pay bill reduction by 10% also reducing tax take saving €1200million
  4. Disband the 75% of the army or hire them out to the UN saving €600 million
  5. Hire the remainder to the UN raising €200million
  6. Disband the Air Corps
  7. Social Welfare 10% cutback saving €1050 million
  8. Reduce social welfare rent allowance by 25%(interest rates lower)
  9. Levy rates on the equity only in rented residential property raising €500 million
  10. Reduce public representatives salaries, expenses, pensions by 33%
  11. Introduce a land tax of €20 per acre on arable land 10,000,000 acres x 40 raising €400 million
  12. Levies on Rural one off houses raised to €30,000 x 15,000 raising €450 million
  13. Double Land registry fees (maintaining revenue) raising €000million
  14. Introduce a loan scheme to cover the cost of Third level Education saving €1500 million
  15. Department of the gaeltacht half budget saving €180 million
  16. Rent Reduction for property rented by the state less 33% saving €50 million
  17. Net 15% CGT tax on principle residence with roll over relief increase inheritance tax, gift tax, raising 1000 million
  18. Abolish stamp duty on residential property reduce it on commercial property to 2%
  19. Increase development levies and for urban development by 100%
  20. Levy a tax of 10% pa on undeveloped zoned land.
  21. Limit tax relief on pension contributions to the lower rate
  22. Hold a Tax Amnesty to raise 20 billion to recapitalise the Banks and Nationalise them
While I disagree with the red highlighted suggestions on the gounds they are taking from the poor, he at least deserves credit for compiling such a list. Those in green I'd have no problem with.

The issue of a loan scheme for Third Level is also going to be controversial. Personally, I think education always pays for itself in the long run and it ought to be seen by the State as a long term investment worth making. Reintroducing fees or setting up a loan system is just going to erect barriers for some people (usually the least well off).

Cutting 50% off farm payments is surely going to break a significant number of farmers and drive them off the land? Is this good social policy?

I'm not sure of the practicality of disbanding entirely the Army & Air Corps? The Air Corps maybe, but then I think we should be spending far more on the Navy anyway to effectively manage our enormous marine resources.

It's not clear to me what how reducing stamp duty raises funds?

I wouldn't be cutting the Dept of Gaeltacht funding by half without knowing what services would be discontinued as a result. What do they do anyway?

What sort of funds could be realised if we introduced a property tax on all residential property other than primary residences? (Holiday homes, rental property)

Reducing tax relief on pensions contributions is probably a good idea, but it will on exacerbate the medium term pension problem by discouraging people from starting or staying in schemes.

Rather than a tax amnesty to fund nationalisation fo the banks, why not just buy them on the open market? They are essentially worthless. Better still, just seize the banks we need and let the rest fend for themselves.

My own few suggestions:

  1. Sell stake in Aer Lingus
  2. RPT on all second and subsequent residential properties
  3. Property Tax on Church Land.
  4. Break up RTE. Retain only broadcast infrastructure and sell Montrose and move base to Athlone.
  5. Break up ESB. Retain only eirgrid.
  6. Ban on use of 'consultants' by Government.
  7. No payment for people appointed to state boards.
  8. TD's to earn average industrial wage. Ministers to earn twice that. Taoiseach thrice that.
  9. Abolition of all Junior Ministers.
  10. No state funds whatsoever for Private Schools or Private Hospitals.
  11. Reorganise tax system into three bands 20%, 40% & 60% for low, medium and high earners. Let those who can afford to pay more, rather than just gouging PAYE sector as usual. What would the tax take be if we paid no tax on anything below 15k, 20% on income between 15k-40k, 40% on income between 40k-80k and 60% on everything above 80k?
  12. Abolish VAT on food and clothing.
That's my dirty dozen. Needless to say I haven't bothered my hole to cost any of this and they are mostly just a reflection of my own prejudices, but they'd surely raise a few bob.

Good work there coc although I think johnfás has raised some decent concerns about some of your points.

On Eirgrid,
this is a big question as to whether it will be torn away from the side of the ESB and some of the power stations there privatised. Would the state generate a lot of money from the sale of more power stations ? I've little doubt that part of our recovery has a lot to do with energy which is why I'd like to see a

Carbon tax
This should offset overtime a lot of our energy imports which are costing us doubly because we don't use local employment when we import Columbian coal. We might do so if we focused on biomass and forestry more here. Using peat would also be out as I believe it's a high CO2 producer. This is no harm as it's a competitor with forestry anyway although they could be used alongside one another for a spell but biomass is something we could use as a sustainable local industry as it's agricultural and labour-intensive. Any measures to induce more of this would be welcome including land taxes.

Taxes in General
Wouldn't it be beneficial to have a more responsive tax system ? Within limits like a CO2 ceiling, a reduced tax on a second car might be an idea, especially if there is a lot of supply around - it might get some stock moving as well as releasing some pent up savings into the economy. Taxing petrol instead might also be an idea and scrapping the car tax altogether but generally perhaps the tax system could do with decent reform big scale to make it more flexible, responsive, equitable and intelligent.

Consultants
Couldn't we use students instead ? I agree with johnfás that banning them might not be the way to go but there is a big question over how much gets frittered away on expensive reports that locals could do. Already €38 million was spent on reports into the Metro North for example. Feckin hell! Changing the C&AG's remit and giving him wider powers might be something here. Also, making it obligatory to publish certain info under FOI so we can all have a look, a moan, a whinge to our local TD then bust his balls when there's an overspend. People should know what they're getting for what the state spends. It should be bloody unlawful to keep information from the public instead of asking the public to pay for it. Lack of information is often the source of poor regulation in a marketplace. The mechanic in your community who rips you off better be well aware that you know feck all about mechanical stuff otherwise you could be mouthing him off far and near.

EVM
wanted to start a project here and has done so on reducing public expenditure or at least investigating the spends and compiling data on the spending so as to accumulate enough for feedback to happen eventually. It's a worthy project and necessitates figures and numbers to be included and is ongoing. Accurate enough costings with our own ideas would be mighty but it is unrealistic to expect people to go to those lengths although it would be perhaps very patriotic.

On the Army and Overseas Aid and other drastic stuff
Would it not be excusable to cut these things for a spell if necessary until we get ourselves sorted out?
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PostSubject: Re: If the IMF cometh   Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:38 pm

johnfás wrote:

The Air Corps is a vital part of our strategy to effectively manage our enormous marine resources. Boats aren't much use if they don't know where to go and who is in our waters. The Air Corps provides a huge strategic support to the Navy.
That's a good point. Let's keep the Air Corps so.

johnfás wrote:
2.We already do, you pay tax on your rental income and the last budget introduced a levy on holiday homes. Perhaps you would like it to be increased.
I suspect that a lot of rental income goes undeclared or at least underdeclared. I would be against using a bureacracy to police this system when it ought to be far easier to determine that a person owns 5 houses and tax the hole off him accordingly - we used to have RPT here on even primary residences, didn't we?

johnfás wrote:
3. Where did you cook this one up and what is the justification for it? Will you be including a tax on schools which are under the patronage of Churches and will you support such a tax on the property of all organisations with charitable status?
My justification is that the church is enormously wealthy and so should pay its way like everyone else. Perhaps exclusions could be granted for church land that is signed over for educational use?

johnfás wrote:
4. I disagree with the sale of the state broadcaster though, I think it lacks foresight and will likely result in reduced educational and informative programming.
We could issue licences to TV companies, they way it is done for Radio, requiring certain, standards, contents etc, to ensure this doesn't happen.

johnfás wrote:
6. "Ban"? Seems a bit extreme. This is one of those very difficult things to implement. A ban is a nonsense which cannot work, what about when the Government requires and independent and impartial report? In that situation you need them. On the otherhand any commitment to a reduction of their use is going to be unenforceable.
Perhaps Ban is not the right word. But it has been obvious for a long time now that whole swathes of the Civil Service are 'decision averse' and that consultants are used to do the real work, with disasterous results in the case of, for example, PPARS. I, for one, have great difficulty in believing in the impartialiaty and independence of some of the consultants used and strongly a culture of consultation has emerged wihich means civil servants never have to make an unpalatable decision and their friends in the 'private' sector get paid handsomely. The use of consultants ought to be a rare and exceptiuonal occurance, like if Martians landed and we wanted to know what to do about it. For more mundane matters civil servants are supposed to be the consultants are they not? if not, what do we have them for?

johnfás wrote:
7. Reduced payment perhaps, no payment seems wrong. Why should people not get paid for work they are doing?
Because in many cases it is not clear that they are doing any work at all? What do you imagine Joe Burke or Celia Larkin bring to the table at their respective roles? The current scheme is totally corrupt and obviously so. I would be honoured if asked to serve on a State Board and certainly would not expect remuneration or expense for doing so. I would consider it an answer to the call to patriotic duty. LOL.

johnfás wrote:
9. Abolition of all junior ministers would require the creation of new ministries. For example, the Minister for Children, is a very important one but currently a junior ministry.
Mary Harney is the Minister for Health & Children. I consider her singularly unqualified for the role, but I don't think the solution to incompetent Ministers is to provide them all with seconds. Most of the junior posts are made up rubbish jobs we had no apparent need for 30 years ago.

johnfás wrote:
10.On what do you base your argument that children attending fee paying schools are not entitled to the same level of Government support as those who do not? This is a discrimination against children, not their parents. Do you also support the means testing of child welfare? It is precisely the same thing but does not appear on your list. It would also be open to many constitutional challenges.
As above, people who send their children to Clongowes,for example, can clearly afford to pay the teachers salaries. So they should have to. The State could provide an agreed basic standard of education for everyone. If people want to opt out of that and pay more for water-polo or rugby coaches, that's great, but I'm not prepared to subsidise the super-rich in their rugby playing paradise when my kids are bing educated in portakabins. Any state funded school should be open to all citizens without discrimination on the grounds of wealth.

johnfás wrote:
12. Agree insofar as essential food and clothing. VAT should be payable on luxury food and clothing.
I suspect the definition of luxury vs essential would take a few thousand civil servants years to fully work out at enourmous expense, so it might be easier to have a simple 'can you eat it, can you wear it' rule and live with the admitedly disturbing consequence of the use of edible knickers going untaxed.
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