Machine Nation

Irish Politics Forum - Politics Technology Economics in Ireland - A Look Under The Nation's Bonnet


Devilish machinations come to naught --Milton
 
PortalPortal  HomeHome  FAQFAQ  SearchSearch  MemberlistMemberlist  UsergroupsUsergroups  RegisterRegister  Log in  GalleryGallery  MACHINENATION.org  

Share | 
 

 Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : 1, 2  Next
AuthorMessage
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme   Sun Jan 04, 2009 9:21 pm

A number of people have separately pointed out that they feel the current situation in Gaza is comparable in some ways to the Warsaw Uprising.

There is a television programme on the Uprising tonight (Sunday) on RTE 2 at 8.00 p.m.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme   Sun Jan 04, 2009 9:27 pm

I wonder how apt these things are?

I remember in 2006 the BBC doing a brilliant four-part documentary on the Suez canal crisis, to mark its 50th anniversary. Of course all sorts of comparison were made between that little colonial disaster and the then dire situation in Iraq.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme   Sun Jan 04, 2009 9:34 pm

905 wrote:
I wonder how apt these things are?

I remember in 2006 the BBC doing a brilliant four-part documentary on the Suez canal crisis, to mark its 50th anniversary. Of course all sorts of comparison were made between that little colonial disaster and the then dire situation in Iraq.

Well, the programme might give some idea of how apt or not the comparison is. Warsaw was very different in all kinds of ways, but people still see some factors in common. The population was trapped and fought street to street against a heavily armed military force. I've read about the uprising, and seen a very good Polish film based on it, but maybe after I've seen the film on RTE I'll change my mind about any similarities.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme   Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:08 pm

Starting now.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme   Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:15 pm

They seem fond to villify the Ruskis.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme   Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:16 pm

Godforsaken.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme   Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:55 pm

evercloserunion wrote:
They seem fond to villify the Ruskis.

They're right to do so. Okay, the Rising was premature, but the Russians were happy to let them die, and refused British and American repeated requests to be allowed to use Russian territory to land and refuel after dropping supplies to the besieged rebels. Many British airmen lost their lives in the heroic attempt to get supplies to what they already knew was a hopelessly outnumbered and outgunned Polish Resistance, having flown all the way from Northern Italy, and not a few of them as a result of deliberate Russian obstinacy in refusal. The evil bastard Stalin (for that is what he was) was happy to see them be wiped out, all the better to control the place afterwards. Just as he had Free Polish Ministers murdered at the end of the war, just as he ordered the Katyn massacre before Barbarossa, just as he wiped out the Polish 'intelligentsia' when in control. The Russians were bastards.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme   Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:27 am

toxic avenger wrote:
evercloserunion wrote:
They seem fond to villify the Ruskis.

They're right to do so. Okay, the Rising was premature, but the Russians were happy to let them die, and refused British and American repeated requests to be allowed to use Russian territory to land and refuel after dropping supplies to the besieged rebels. Many British airmen lost their lives in the heroic attempt to get supplies to what they already knew was a hopelessly outnumbered and outgunned Polish Resistance, having flown all the way from Northern Italy, and not a few of them as a result of deliberate Russian obstinacy in refusal. The evil bastard Stalin (for that is what he was) was happy to see them be wiped out, all the better to control the place afterwards. Just as he had Free Polish Ministers murdered at the end of the war, just as he ordered the Katyn massacre before Barbarossa, just as he wiped out the Polish 'intelligentsia' when in control. The Russians were bastards.

Agree with all that, except Stalin did not represent all Russians, and plenty of Russians were murdered by him and his supporters. He nearly destroyed the Red Army by sending thousands of experienced officers to Siberia.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme   Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:38 am

cactus flower wrote:
toxic avenger wrote:
evercloserunion wrote:
They seem fond to villify the Ruskis.

They're right to do so. Okay, the Rising was premature, but the Russians were happy to let them die, and refused British and American repeated requests to be allowed to use Russian territory to land and refuel after dropping supplies to the besieged rebels. Many British airmen lost their lives in the heroic attempt to get supplies to what they already knew was a hopelessly outnumbered and outgunned Polish Resistance, having flown all the way from Northern Italy, and not a few of them as a result of deliberate Russian obstinacy in refusal. The evil bastard Stalin (for that is what he was) was happy to see them be wiped out, all the better to control the place afterwards. Just as he had Free Polish Ministers murdered at the end of the war, just as he ordered the Katyn massacre before Barbarossa, just as he wiped out the Polish 'intelligentsia' when in control. The Russians were bastards.

Agree with all that, except Stalin did not represent all Russians, and plenty of Russians were murdered by him and his supporters. He nearly destroyed the Red Army by sending thousands of experienced officers to Siberia.

Granted. When I say they're right to vilify the Russians, I mean they're right to vilify the Russians' actions as ordered by Stalin, not that the Russian people weren't just as much, if not more so, victims of his.

I must add here a high recommendation for a film by Andrzej Wajda from the late 50s called 'Kanal' about the Rising, following resistance fighters as they descended into the sewers to escape the Germans. I saw it only once, as a kid many years ago on Channel 4, and haven't seen it since, but I remember it well, it's a film that haunted me.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme   Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:44 am

toxic avenger wrote:
evercloserunion wrote:
They seem fond to villify the Ruskis.

They're right to do so. Okay, the Rising was premature, but the Russians were happy to let them die, and refused British and American repeated requests to be allowed to use Russian territory to land and refuel after dropping supplies to the besieged rebels. Many British airmen lost their lives in the heroic attempt to get supplies to what they already knew was a hopelessly outnumbered and outgunned Polish Resistance, having flown all the way from Northern Italy, and not a few of them as a result of deliberate Russian obstinacy in refusal. The evil bastard Stalin (for that is what he was) was happy to see them be wiped out, all the better to control the place afterwards. Just as he had Free Polish Ministers murdered at the end of the war, just as he ordered the Katyn massacre before Barbarossa, just as he wiped out the Polish 'intelligentsia' when in control. The Russians were bastards.
I'm no fan of Stalin or the Soviets but a lot of this is speculation. For one we can't be sure why he waited outside Warsaw for so long. It is ironic that the Russians are criticized for not entering Warsaw themselves, when in fact the ideal situation for the uprising organizers would have been to take back Warsaw without Russian help. IIRC the Allies stopped just short of Paris in order to let the French Resistance and Free French Army take back the city for themselves, and this was considered a noble and admirable act. It is the height of hypocrisy, therefore, to criticize the Soviets for acting similarly in Warsaw.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme   Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:46 am

Yes, that's the film that I mentioned. This is the only still I can find. One of my top 30 films, I think.



Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme   Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:49 am

evercloserunion wrote:
toxic avenger wrote:
evercloserunion wrote:
They seem fond to villify the Ruskis.

They're right to do so. Okay, the Rising was premature, but the Russians were happy to let them die, and refused British and American repeated requests to be allowed to use Russian territory to land and refuel after dropping supplies to the besieged rebels. Many British airmen lost their lives in the heroic attempt to get supplies to what they already knew was a hopelessly outnumbered and outgunned Polish Resistance, having flown all the way from Northern Italy, and not a few of them as a result of deliberate Russian obstinacy in refusal. The evil bastard Stalin (for that is what he was) was happy to see them be wiped out, all the better to control the place afterwards. Just as he had Free Polish Ministers murdered at the end of the war, just as he ordered the Katyn massacre before Barbarossa, just as he wiped out the Polish 'intelligentsia' when in control. The Russians were bastards.
I'm no fan of Stalin or the Soviets but a lot of this is speculation. For one we can't be sure why he waited outside Warsaw for so long. It is ironic that the Russians are criticized for not entering Warsaw themselves, when in fact the ideal situation for the uprising organizers would have been to take back Warsaw without Russian help. IIRC the Allies stopped just short of Paris in order to let the French Resistance and Free French Army take back the city for themselves, and this was considered a noble and admirable act. It is the height of hypocrisy, therefore, to criticize the Soviets for acting similarly in Warsaw.

To the best of my memory, the population of Warsaw begged for help from the Russians. Was that the case with Paris?
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme   Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:57 am

evercloserunion wrote:
toxic avenger wrote:
evercloserunion wrote:
They seem fond to villify the Ruskis.

They're right to do so. Okay, the Rising was premature, but the Russians were happy to let them die, and refused British and American repeated requests to be allowed to use Russian territory to land and refuel after dropping supplies to the besieged rebels. Many British airmen lost their lives in the heroic attempt to get supplies to what they already knew was a hopelessly outnumbered and outgunned Polish Resistance, having flown all the way from Northern Italy, and not a few of them as a result of deliberate Russian obstinacy in refusal. The evil bastard Stalin (for that is what he was) was happy to see them be wiped out, all the better to control the place afterwards. Just as he had Free Polish Ministers murdered at the end of the war, just as he ordered the Katyn massacre before Barbarossa, just as he wiped out the Polish 'intelligentsia' when in control. The Russians were bastards.
I'm no fan of Stalin or the Soviets but a lot of this is speculation. For one we can't be sure why he waited outside Warsaw for so long. It is ironic that the Russians are criticized for not entering Warsaw themselves, when in fact the ideal situation for the uprising organizers would have been to take back Warsaw without Russian help. IIRC the Allies stopped just short of Paris in order to let the French Resistance and Free French Army take back the city for themselves, and this was considered a noble and admirable act. It is the height of hypocrisy, therefore, to criticize the Soviets for acting similarly in Warsaw.

I deliberately didn't say any of that. Nothing in my post is speculation, either. If you read my post again you'll note that I carefully avoided all mention of that one allegation, being fully aware of the arguments both ways on the issue. I confined my point to the deliberate decision by Stalin not to allow the RAF to use Russian territory to land in, thus limiting supplies and resulting in the deaths of many RAF airmen. I did not mention the halt of the Red Army. It is, however, an incontrovertible fact that Stalin was happy to see the Polish Home Army and Government wiped out, knowing as he did the threat that they posed to the post-War Russian supremacy, as evidenced by the examples I gave of his actions elsewhere. It is also uncontroversial to note that the Russians gave no aid or supplies by air to Warsaw, despite being a stone's throw away, while the British went to the extreme of flying on virtual suicide missions from Italy.


Last edited by toxic avenger on Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:59 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme   Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:58 am

cactus flower wrote:
evercloserunion wrote:
toxic avenger wrote:
evercloserunion wrote:
They seem fond to villify the Ruskis.

They're right to do so. Okay, the Rising was premature, but the Russians were happy to let them die, and refused British and American repeated requests to be allowed to use Russian territory to land and refuel after dropping supplies to the besieged rebels. Many British airmen lost their lives in the heroic attempt to get supplies to what they already knew was a hopelessly outnumbered and outgunned Polish Resistance, having flown all the way from Northern Italy, and not a few of them as a result of deliberate Russian obstinacy in refusal. The evil bastard Stalin (for that is what he was) was happy to see them be wiped out, all the better to control the place afterwards. Just as he had Free Polish Ministers murdered at the end of the war, just as he ordered the Katyn massacre before Barbarossa, just as he wiped out the Polish 'intelligentsia' when in control. The Russians were bastards.
I'm no fan of Stalin or the Soviets but a lot of this is speculation. For one we can't be sure why he waited outside Warsaw for so long. It is ironic that the Russians are criticized for not entering Warsaw themselves, when in fact the ideal situation for the uprising organizers would have been to take back Warsaw without Russian help. IIRC the Allies stopped just short of Paris in order to let the French Resistance and Free French Army take back the city for themselves, and this was considered a noble and admirable act. It is the height of hypocrisy, therefore, to criticize the Soviets for acting similarly in Warsaw.

To the best of my memory, the population of Warsaw begged for help from the Russians. Was that the case with Paris?
I can't be sure cactus, I wasn't there. I would be interested to know how they begged the Russians for help though, considering they were being chased underground and the Russians weren't even in the city. Besides, the troops had just finished a very long march. Taking a city is difficult enough, even moreso when you have strong German entrenchments backed up by massive artillery fire. To enter Warsaw while exhausted and in these conditions would have been suicidal.

All considered, there is absolutely nothing to suggest that the Allies would not have done the same had they been in the Soviets' position.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme   Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:05 am

Quote :

I deliberately didn't say any of that. If you read my post again
you'll note that I carefully avoided all mention of that one
allegation, being fully aware of the arguments both ways on the issue.
I confined my point to the deliberate decision by Stalin not to allow
the RAF to use Russian territory to land in, thus limiting supplies and
resulting in the deaths of many RAF airmen. I did not mention the halt
of the Red Army. It is, however, an incontrovertible fact that Stalin
was happy to see the Polish Home Army and Government wiped out, knowing
as he did the threat that they posed to the post-War Russian supremacy,
as evidenced by the examples I gave of his actions elsewhere. It is
also uncontroversial to note that the Russians gave no aid or supplies
by air to Warsaw, despite being a stone's throw away, while the British
went to the extreme of flying on virtual suicide missions from Italy.
Regarding the aid and supplies, the Russians took a hit in WWII that no Brit or Yank would ever understand. They were devastated by the initial German onslaught both economically and in terms of human casualties. I would think twice before suggesting that they had food and supplies to drop into enemy hands.

Regarding letting the RAF refuel, it was probably more a political decision than anything. Stalin was well aware that outside the narrow context of the war he and the West were enemies, and I would be nervous about letting a powerful enemy fly through my territory, maybe Stalin was of the same mind. In any case it's not as if he actively prevented Allied air forces from flying over the city.

Most of your claims are based on a negative image of the Russians painted by the massacres and other atrocities committed by Stalin which leads to the presumption that where the Russians acted they acted on sinister hidden motives. That's fair enough, but don't forget Dresden or Hiroshima or Nagasaki.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme   Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:09 am

So who got to form the Polish Government, after the uprising was defeated?

" border="0" alt="" />

You can be sure it wasn't these guys.

The view that the Soviet Union leaders deliberately held back in order to let the Germans eliminate a potential "bourgeois opposition" to a Soviet friendly puppet government is very widely held. As a lot of new information is being released from Russian archives, perhaps we will get a definitive answer.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/636161/Warsaw-Uprising


Last edited by cactus flower on Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:15 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme   Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:12 am

Okay cactus, if you don't want to address the points that's fine. Again, I never said Stalin was anything but a bastard and I never said the USSR was a Western-friendly democracy. I'm just asking for a little critical thinking when analysing all this.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme   Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:17 am

cactus flower wrote:
So who got to form the Polish Government, after the uprising was defeated?

[img][/img]

You can be sure it wasn't these guys.

The view that the Soviet Union leaders deliberately held back in order to let the Germans eliminate a potential "bourgeois opposition" to a Soviet friendly puppet government is very widely held. As a lot of new information is being released from Russian archives, perhaps we will get a definitive answer.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/636161/Warsaw-Uprising

May well have been some of these guys though... they also fought in the uprising.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme   Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:35 am

evercloserunion wrote:
Quote :

I deliberately didn't say any of that. If you read my post again
you'll note that I carefully avoided all mention of that one
allegation, being fully aware of the arguments both ways on the issue.
I confined my point to the deliberate decision by Stalin not to allow
the RAF to use Russian territory to land in, thus limiting supplies and
resulting in the deaths of many RAF airmen. I did not mention the halt
of the Red Army. It is, however, an incontrovertible fact that Stalin
was happy to see the Polish Home Army and Government wiped out, knowing
as he did the threat that they posed to the post-War Russian supremacy,
as evidenced by the examples I gave of his actions elsewhere. It is
also uncontroversial to note that the Russians gave no aid or supplies
by air to Warsaw, despite being a stone's throw away, while the British
went to the extreme of flying on virtual suicide missions from Italy.
Regarding the aid and supplies, the Russians took a hit in WWII that no Brit or Yank would ever understand. They were devastated by the initial German onslaught both economically and in terms of human casualties. I would think twice before suggesting that they had food and supplies to drop into enemy hands.

Regarding letting the RAF refuel, it was probably more a political decision than anything. Stalin was well aware that outside the narrow context of the war he and the West were enemies, and I would be nervous about letting a powerful enemy fly through my territory, maybe Stalin was of the same mind. In any case it's not as if he actively prevented Allied air forces from flying over the city.

Most of your claims are based on a negative image of the Russians painted by the massacres and other atrocities committed by Stalin which leads to the presumption that where the Russians acted they acted on sinister hidden motives. That's fair enough, but don't forget Dresden or Hiroshima or Nagasaki.

Our posts are crossing, but I won't go over ground already covered by Toxic Avenger.

The last phase of the war was a race for control and territory, with the word "liberation" being used as liberally and inaccurately as the word "democratisation" is used nowadays. You are questioning a very widely held view of events, and at the moment we are putting one set of speculations up against another, and not really getting very far.

You said
Quote :
Regarding the aid and supplies, the Russians took a hit in WWII that no Brit or Yank would ever understand. They were devastated by the initial German onslaught both economically and in terms of human casualties. I would think twice before suggesting that they had food and supplies to drop into enemy hands.

Who were the "enemy hands" ? the Poles and the British were allies against the Germans at this stage of the war.

Russia took a terrible hammering and in my view, the Russians won the war against Germany, a much lesser role taken by the UK, whilst the US sat back and watched them hammer each other and was the strategic winner. Standing back from action worked for them.

In relation to what I said about new archive material, a new collaborative book on the Uprising was produced last year by Polish and Russian historians.
This is what was said about the matter we are discussing:

Quote :
But there is one controversy this book still leaves unsettled. By August 1944 the Red Army had already freed Warsaw's suburbs. The Polish capital was just weeks away from liberation. And at this moment another force - the Polish underground army - declared it was strong enough to free Warsaw from the Nazis.

“It’s an implementation of the concept of the Polish government-in-exile, which was in London then. From a military point of view, that uprising was a pure gamble. They had twice as many soldiers as the Germans did. But only 30 per cent of them were equipped. Could they start an uprising?” Vladimir Makarov wonders.

The Red Army was on the opposite bank of the Vistula River when the uprising began. Some accuse the soviet command of undertaking nothing to help Poland. Historians have their explanation.

“No one asked Stalin or the military for help. The Poles started the uprising themselves and hoped to deal with it on their own as well. It wouldn't have been wise for the Soviet command to send in troops to carry out an offensive operation without a thought-through plan. It's clear to historians. That's why we didn't touch upon this issue in this book,” historian Vasily Khristoforov explains.

No help for us there.

http://www.russiatoday.com/features/news/15146

A caption reads "this book is aimed at bringing the two countries together"
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme   Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:50 am

evercloserunion wrote:

Regarding the aid and supplies, the Russians took a hit in WWII that no Brit or Yank would ever understand. They were devastated by the initial German onslaught both economically and in terms of human casualties. I would think twice before suggesting that they had food and supplies to drop into enemy hands.

No I wouldn't. The first two sentences are absolutely correct beyond dispute. The third is wrong, the Russians had ample supplies to aid Warsaw by mid-1944, much of it having been supplied by British ships via the Arctic convoy, the British basically halving their lend-lease supplies with the Russians from late 1941. Arms, at the very least, were abundant enough by that time to spare some for the Rising.

Quote :
Regarding letting the RAF refuel, it was probably more a political decision than anything. Stalin was well aware that outside the narrow context of the war he and the West were enemies, and I would be nervous about letting a powerful enemy fly through my territory, maybe Stalin was of the same mind. In any case it's not as if he actively prevented Allied air forces from flying over the city.


No, there was no suspicion in Stalin's mind that the flights were for any other purpose, whatever suspicions he may have had about the delay in opening the second front. And yes he did, the Russians fired on RAF planes that strayed into their airspace, some of the planes brought down were done so by the Russians, while virtually all the ones that were brought down by the Germans might not have happened had they not been forced to take a near-suicide mission as a result of Stalin's refusal to let them land.

And please don't forget Stalin's own words. The insurgents were 'a handful of criminals', and the rising was inspired by 'enemies of the Soviet Union'. Motive and opportunity.

Quote :
Most of your claims are based on a negative image of the Russians painted by the massacres and other atrocities committed by Stalin which leads to the presumption that where the Russians acted they acted on sinister hidden motives. That's fair enough, but don't forget Dresden or Hiroshima or Nagasaki.

My views, as a trained historian, are based on having read all about the Rising, including Stalin's own words. It has nothing to do with Dresden or Hiroshima, they are separate issues to be studied in isolation. I'm not a fan of moral relativism, what the Notherners call 'whatabouttery'...
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme   Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:51 am

Quote :

The last phase of the war was a race for control and territory,
with the word "liberation" being used as liberally and inaccurately as
the word "democratisation" is used nowadays. You are questioning a very
widely held view of events, and at the moment we are putting one set of
speculations up against another, and not really getting very far.
Of course a lot of people think Stalin withheld in order to see the Polish exterminated etc. etc. History is, after all, written by the winner. But you are making out as if I am questioning something which has been proven as fact and accepted universally, which it hasn't. There is room for doubt. As well as most communist historians and USSR officials at the time, some Western historians also believe there were other factors at play.

Once again, I am not saying Stalin was a saint. I am not even saying your theory is wrong. But I am saying is that it's not settled fact and I'd like to see a little more open-mindedness and critical thinking.

Quote :
Who were the "enemy hands" ? the Poles and the British were allies against the Germans at this stage of the war.
But Warsaw was a German-occupied city. The Allies attempted to airdrop supplies and the vast majority of these supplies went to the Germans. Why would the Russians make the same mistake? I doubt they could afford to.

Quote :

Russia took a terrible hammering and in my view, the Russians won
the war against Germany, a much lesser role taken by the UK, whilst the
US sat back and watched them hammer each other and was the strategic
winner. Standing back from action worked for them.
Interesting how the Russians are villified and demonized for refraining to intervene in a city uprising while there is no such criticism of America for sitting back while an entire continent destroys itself.

Quote :

In relation to what I said about new archive material, a new
collaborative book on the Uprising was produced last year by Polish and
Russian historians.
This is what was said about the matter we are discussing:

...

No help for us there.

http://www.russiatoday.com/features/news/15146

A caption reads "this book is aimed at bringing the two countries together"
Is there no help for us there? The book seems to favour my theory. In any case it proves that it's no open-shut case and maybe Irish documentarians would do well to borrow from these historians and address controversial points of history in slightly more open-minded and professional a manner in future.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme   Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:00 am

Quote :

No I wouldn't. The first two sentences are absolutely correct
beyond dispute. The third is wrong, the Russians had ample supplies to
aid Warsaw by mid-1944, much of it having been supplied by British
ships via the Arctic convoy, the British basically halving their
lend-lease supplies with the Russians from late 1941. Arms, at the very
least, were abundant enough by that time to spare some for the Rising.
To an Allied-controlled territory maybe, but what was effectively a German-occupied city? Why would the Russians want to give the Germans more guns?

Quote :

No, there was no suspicion in Stalin's mind that the flights were
for any other purpose, whatever suspicions he may have had about the
delay in opening the second front. And yes he did, the Russians fired
on RAF planes that strayed into their airspace, some of the planes
brought down were done so by the Russians, while virtually all the ones
that were brought down by the Germans might not have happened had they
not been forced to take a near-suicide mission as a result of Stalin's
refusal to let them land.
The country was at war, and it shot at foreign warplanes that flew over its territory. Is there no way this could be explained other than by concluding that Stalin personally wanted the Poles to suffer?

Quote :

And please don't forget Stalin's own words. The insurgents were 'a
handful of criminals', and the rising was inspired by 'enemies of the
Soviet Union'. Motive and opportunity.
Source please? I'm not saying you're wrong, it would just be interesting to read.

No doubt Stalin thought the same about the Allies he fought alongside. And no doubt they thought the same about him. I'm sure you can see how that proves nothing.

Quote :

My views, as a trained historian, are based on having read all
about the Rising, including Stalin's own words. It has nothing to do
with Dresden or Hiroshima, they are separate issues to be studied in
isolation. I'm not a fan of moral relativism, what the Notherners call
'whatabouttery'...
I was just criticizing the reasoning that had been put forth, and I was also pointing out the hypocrisy of those who think that it was the squeaky clean Allies vs the evil Germans and Russians in WWII. Call it off topic if you want.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme   Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:04 am

"evercloserunion"]
Quote :

Quote :
The last phase of the war was a race for control and territory,
with the word "liberation" being used as liberally and inaccurately as
the word "democratisation" is used nowadays. You are questioning a very
widely held view of events, and at the moment we are putting one set of
speculations up against another, and not really getting very far.
Of course a lot of people think Stalin withheld in order to see the Polish exterminated etc. etc. History is, after all, written by the winner. But you are making out as if I am questioning something which has been proven as fact and accepted universally, which it hasn't. There is room for doubt. As well as most communist historians and USSR officials at the time, some Western historians also believe there were other factors at play.

On the contrary, I am leaving room for uncertainty and room for the possibility that there will be greater certainty at some stage in the future. You have asked valid questions. Toxic Avenger has answered some of them.

Quote :
Once again, I am not saying Stalin was a saint. I am not even saying your theory is wrong. But I am saying is that it's not settled fact and I'd like to see a little more open-mindedness and critical thinking.

Not my theory, a theory that is very widely believed and cited, as in the Britannica link, but I could find you scores more.

Quote :
Quote :
Who were the "enemy hands" ? the Poles and the British were allies against the Germans at this stage of the war.
But Warsaw was a German-occupied city. The Allies attempted to airdrop supplies and the vast majority of these supplies went to the Germans. Why would the Russians make the same mistake? I doubt they could afford to
.

You were referring to the Germans. As TA said, Stalin viewed the Polish insurgents as enemies.

Quote :
Quote :

Russia took a terrible hammering and in my view, the Russians won
the war against Germany, a much lesser role taken by the UK, whilst the
US sat back and watched them hammer each other and was the strategic
winner. Standing back from action worked for them.
Interesting how the Russians are villified and demonized for refraining to intervene in a city uprising while there is no such criticism of America for sitting back while an entire continent destroys itself.

This thread is about the Warsaw Uprising. I've posted extensively, and critically, about the US's hostility to and competition with Europe, in the context of WWII.

Quote :

In relation to what I said about new archive material, a new
collaborative book on the Uprising was produced last year by Polish and
Russian historians.
This is what was said about the matter we are discussing:

...

No help for us there.

http://www.russiatoday.com/features/news/15146

A caption reads "this book is aimed at bringing the two countries together"
Quote :
Is there no help for us there? The book seems to favour my theory. In any case it proves that it's no open-shut case and maybe Irish documentarians would do well to borrow from these historians and address controversial points of history in slightly more open-minded and professional a manner in future.

The book does not favour either theory - it doesn't cover the issue at all. The book appears to be in part a poltical exercise, as is much history writing. The fact that this controversy was not covered in the book if anything suggests to me that the documentary evidence was not such as would help in "bringing the two countries together".
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme   Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:14 am

evercloserunion wrote:

To an Allied-controlled territory maybe, but what was effectively a German-occupied city? Why would the Russians want to give the Germans more guns?
For the same reasons as the British? The British thought it worthwhile, even if only as a gesture, and even with drop captures by the enemy. The Russians could have done it with more precision. Only not involving thousand-mile suicide missions.

Quote :
The country was at war, and it shot at foreign warplanes that flew over its territory. Is there no way this could be explained other than by concluding that Stalin personally wanted the Poles to suffer?
No. Unless you're almost touchingly gullible.

Quote :
Source please? I'm not saying you're wrong, it would just be interesting to read.
From Times Online:
Quote :
Stalin wanted to make Poland part of Moscow’s sphere of influence and,
in a letter to his two wartime allies, dismissed the Home Army, which
was directed by the Polish government in exile in London, as “a handful
of criminals”.
http://www.warsawuprising.com/paper/times_online.htm

From the Warsaw Rising Museum website:
Quote :
The U.S. ambassador in Moscow receives information that the Soviet
government will not give its permission because the Rising was inspired
by “enemies of the Soviet Union.”
http://www.1944.pl/index.php?a=site_text&id=12440&se_id=12445


Quote :
I was just criticizing the reasoning that had been put forth, and I was also pointing out the hypocrisy of those who think that it was the squeaky clean Allies vs the evil Germans and Russians in WWII. Call it off topic if you want.
There may be a little of that, though it's incontrovertible that there was no comparison between the British and Americans' conduct and that of the Germans and Russians, but I take everything in isolation. Something's either motivated by right or wrong. This was horribly wrong.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme   Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:24 am

Quote :

On the contrary, I am leaving room for uncertainty and room for the
possibility that there will be greater certainty at some stage in the
future. You have asked valid questions. Toxic Avenger has answered some
of them.
You certainly don't seem to be leaving much room for uncertainty. From where I'm standing your stance seems to be that you are correct and everyone knows it, but they won't be able to prove it for a few years. Sure what is prove when we have geo-politics to go on anyway.

I'm not saying I'm right, I'm not saying that one thing or another definitely happened. I've simply raised concerns that I have about treating one-sided speculation as indisputable fact, as the documentary did. Toxic has shouted down some of my concerns but has been largely unable to ease them in spite of all his years of historical training.

Quote :
Not my theory, a theory that is very widely believed and cited, as in the Britannica link, but I could find you scores more.
And again, I never said that theory was not supported by many. Do you deny that some historians favour other explanations?

Quote :

The book does not favour either theory - it doesn't cover the issue
at all. The book appears to be in part a poltical exercise, as is much
history writing. The fact that this controversy was not covered in the
book if anything suggests to me that the documentary evidence was not
such as would help in "bringing the two countries together".
My mistake. The book itself offered no help but the authors' reasons for excluding the issue gave some help IMO. Apparently the theory that Stalin had a sinister ulterior motive for declining to march on Warsaw is not as universally accepted as you or toxic would have us believe.
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme   

Back to top Go down
 
Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 2Go to page : 1, 2  Next
 Similar topics
-
» ICSI Student Induction programme (SIP)-IMPORTANT NEWS
» B.Com (CA & Admin) - An education programme by IGNOU ICSI
» cs executive programme notes
» Tax Law Notes for CS Executive programme
» cs professional programme notes

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Machine Nation  :: History :: General History-
Jump to: