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 The Privatisation of Irish Politics

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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:10 am

So do organisations like Libertas not qualify for EU fundiing then to run campaigns ? Does our own Government donate ££ to those who run campaigns - don't we allocate some $$ to the sides at all or are they completely on their own ?

If Libertas are running as a European Party will they qualify for funding as parties in this state are entitled to funding ?
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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:15 am

Anticoalition wrote:


Couldn't it even be possible that (c) he does know, and (d) he doesn't want to expose another weakness in the dogma?

You're just covering all bases now, and appear to be accepting your own assertions as fact and once again without a shread of proof.

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It seems like you are taking sides, but no worries.
Oh I seriously doubt that.

Quote :

This thread has pretty well been shredded, in typical cookie style, but at least the true colours shine through once again.
That's more nonsense from you. You are the one who started by making false statements about Libertas funding if you stuck to dealing with facts (real ones with proof and stuff, not ones you've made up) this thread would have been a whole lot better. But if you think you can make shit up, expect people to swallow it and the blame me when you are, once again, proven to be a fanatical liar and a fantacist you can think again. The only true colours which have been revealed are yours.

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Hopefully we can get back to a constructive conversation about a the future of Ireland and the EU, and we will find the truth about the EU funding in other places.
"Constructive", "truth", with you around? Not a bloody hope!
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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:17 am

Auditor #9 wrote:
So do organisations like Libertas not qualify for EU fundiing then to run campaigns ? Does our own Government donate ££ to those who run campaigns - don't we allocate some $$ to the sides at all or are they completely on their own ?

The government does subsidise parties with Dáil representation.

Auditor #9 wrote:
If Libertas are running as a European Party will they qualify for funding as parties in this state are entitled to funding ?

As far as I know, nobody gets funding to run a campaign as such. The EU subsidises EU Parliamentary parties that have MEPs, the government subsidises parties with TDs. If you don't win, you're not in.

It's interesting, of course - as publicity becomes a more expensive proposition, the risks grow of politics being dominated exclusively by the wealthy, as per the US model.


Last edited by ibis on Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:19 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:18 am

Auditor #9 wrote:
So do organisations like Libertas not qualify for EU fundiing then to run campaigns ? Does our own Government donate ££ to those who run campaigns - don't we allocate some $$ to the sides at all or are they completely on their own ?

If Libertas are running as a European Party will they qualify for funding as parties in this state are entitled to funding ?

It might there is the 17mil fund that the Libertas Foundation can qualify for but it can't be used to fund the party.
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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:19 am

Auditor #9 wrote:
So do organisations like Libertas not qualify for EU fundiing then to run campaigns ? Does our own Government donate ££ to those who run campaigns - don't we allocate some $$ to the sides at all or are they completely on their own ?

If Libertas are running as a European Party will they qualify for funding as parties in this state are entitled to funding ?

They are all very good questions, and I don't know any of the answers.

I am not saying that Libertas was not entitled to get funding, as a third party or lobby group, during the referendum. I just really have a problem with the idea of them getting EU government funding, and then failing to be open and transparent about it.
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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:21 am

Frightened Albanian wrote:
Is it a private party? Well it is registered as a limited company and mea culpa for not getting the documents. No one elected a leader so Ganley is self appointed.
The party evolved from a "think tank" the Libertas Institute, Has it wound down or is it a parallel organisation like the Forum on Public Safety in Europe and North America?

You're not making any sense at all. I've told you before that the Forum on Public Safety isn't a think tank and isn't the "sister organisation" of Libertas as you keep claiming it is.

As for Declan being the "leader" I wouldn't call him that but I am happy for him to be the head of the organisation. He's a bright, articulate and able person, why wouldn't anybody want him as the chairman and he's a decent bloke to boot.

Quote :

To me it seems a private affair but is now looking for candidates and cash and is threatening to run candidates in the EU elections.

To you it seems... to everybody it seems, there was a bloody launch in Brussels, you're talking like it's news... very odd behaviour.
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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:23 am

Auditor #9 wrote:
So do organisations like Libertas not qualify for EU fundiing then to run campaigns ? Does our own Government donate ££ to those who run campaigns - don't we allocate some $$ to the sides at all or are they completely on their own ?

No, only parties in the Dail. I'm not sure if it's limited to general funding or if there is specific funding for referendums etc. but I don't think it's the case.

Quote :

If Libertas are running as a European Party will they qualify for funding as parties in this state are entitled to funding ?
Like above there is funding available of this kind of thing, Libertas have, I believe, applied for such funding.
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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:23 am

ibis

So Libertas have to win some seats before they can get funding ? They'll be relying on grassroots of whatever persuasion big scale though won't they to win any seats at all ? Are there any other new parties getting cooked up btw ? Are the People's Alliance Party running candiates ? A bit off topic as it refers to the publicisation of Irish / EU politics but what's the real difference in the end ?

Please tell me as I don't know.
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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:25 am

Anticoalition wrote:
I just really have a problem with the idea of them getting EU government funding, and then failing to be open and transparent about it.

But you have no reason to believe that they did get EU funding for the No To Lisbon campaign. Why are you worried about something you have no reason to believe has happened?
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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:26 am

cookiemonster wrote:
Frightened Albanian wrote:
Is it a private party? Well it is registered as a limited company and mea culpa for not getting the documents. No one elected a leader so Ganley is self appointed.
The party evolved from a "think tank" the Libertas Institute, Has it wound down or is it a parallel organisation like the Forum on Public Safety in Europe and North America?

You're not making any sense at all. I've told you before that the Forum on Public Safety isn't a think tank and isn't the "sister organisation" of Libertas as you keep claiming it is.

As for Declan being the "leader" I wouldn't call him that but I am happy for him to be the head of the organisation. He's a bright, articulate and able person, why wouldn't anybody want him as the chairman and he's a decent bloke to boot.

Quote :

To me it seems a private affair but is now looking for candidates and cash and is threatening to run candidates in the EU elections.

To you it seems... to everybody it seems, there was a bloody launch in Brussels, you're talking like it's news... very odd behaviour.

Ok you say he is a decent "bloke" and that he is the leader. How did that selection take place? You may have had a launch but there were no candidates announced. So what gives are you going to have candidates? Who decides? Can I run? How will I be funded if I join and run?


Last edited by Frightened Albanian on Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:28 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:27 am

Auditor #9 wrote:
ibis

So Libertas have to win some seats before they can get funding ? They'll be relying on grassroots of whatever persuasion big scale though won't they to win any seats at all ? Are there any other new parties getting cooked up btw ? Are the People's Alliance Party running candiates ? A bit off topic as it refers to the publicisation of Irish / EU politics but what's the real difference in the end ?

Please tell me as I don't know.

Well, no - if they get enough sitting MEPs to support them, they qualify for funding. The same for Dáil parties - you need to get a couple of sitting TDs to join your party, and then you qualify. Like Cookie says, it's not specifically for campaigns.

However, the idea behind it is indeed to combat the privatisation of politics, by making parties less dependent on donors.
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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:28 am

Auditor #9 wrote:
ibis

So Libertas have to win some seats before they can get funding ? They'll be relying on grassroots of whatever persuasion big scale though won't they to win any seats at all ? Are there any other new parties getting cooked up btw ? Are the People's Alliance Party running candiates ? A bit off topic as it refers to the publicisation of Irish / EU politics but what's the real difference in the end ?

Please tell me as I don't know.

Not as far as I am aware, no. At least not on the same scale as Libertas. There are, of course, always individual groups, running candidates but I don't think any of the groups like People's Alliance are doing so save the likes of Sinn Fein and Mary Lou and the like.
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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:29 am

Frightened Albanian wrote:
cookiemonster wrote:
Frightened Albanian wrote:
Is it a private party? Well it is registered as a limited company and mea culpa for not getting the documents. No one elected a leader so Ganley is self appointed.
The party evolved from a "think tank" the Libertas Institute, Has it wound down or is it a parallel organisation like the Forum on Public Safety in Europe and North America?

You're not making any sense at all. I've told you before that the Forum on Public Safety isn't a think tank and isn't the "sister organisation" of Libertas as you keep claiming it is.

As for Declan being the "leader" I wouldn't call him that but I am happy for him to be the head of the organisation. He's a bright, articulate and able person, why wouldn't anybody want him as the chairman and he's a decent bloke to boot.

Quote :

To me it seems a private affair but is now looking for candidates and cash and is threatening to run candidates in the EU elections.

To you it seems... to everybody it seems, there was a bloody launch in Brussels, you're talking like it's news... very odd behaviour.

Ok you say he is a decent "bloke" and that he is the leader. How did that selection take place? You may have had a launch but there were no candidates announced. So what gives are you going to have candidates? Who decides? Can I run? How will I be funded if I join and run?

You seem to have spent an awful lot of time looking at libertas.eu, the answers to those questions are there.
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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:38 am

cookiemonster wrote:
Frightened Albanian wrote:
cookiemonster wrote:
Frightened Albanian wrote:
Is it a private party? Well it is registered as a limited company and mea culpa for not getting the documents. No one elected a leader so Ganley is self appointed.
The party evolved from a "think tank" the Libertas Institute, Has it wound down or is it a parallel organisation like the Forum on Public Safety in Europe and North America?

You're not making any sense at all. I've told you before that the Forum on Public Safety isn't a think tank and isn't the "sister organisation" of Libertas as you keep claiming it is.

As for Declan being the "leader" I wouldn't call him that but I am happy for him to be the head of the organisation. He's a bright, articulate and able person, why wouldn't anybody want him as the chairman and he's a decent bloke to boot.

Quote :

To me it seems a private affair but is now looking for candidates and cash and is threatening to run candidates in the EU elections.

To you it seems... to everybody it seems, there was a bloody launch in Brussels, you're talking like it's news... very odd behaviour.

Ok you say he is a decent "bloke" and that he is the leader. How did that selection take place? You may have had a launch but there were no candidates announced. So what gives are you going to have candidates? Who decides? Can I run? How will I be funded if I join and run?

You seem to have spent an awful lot of time looking at libertas.eu, the answers to those questions are there.

You are here arguing so break it down for us here.
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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:40 am

Frightened Albanian wrote:
cookiemonster wrote:
Frightened Albanian wrote:
cookiemonster wrote:
Frightened Albanian wrote:
Is it a private party? Well it is registered as a limited company and mea culpa for not getting the documents. No one elected a leader so Ganley is self appointed.
The party evolved from a "think tank" the Libertas Institute, Has it wound down or is it a parallel organisation like the Forum on Public Safety in Europe and North America?

You're not making any sense at all. I've told you before that the Forum on Public Safety isn't a think tank and isn't the "sister organisation" of Libertas as you keep claiming it is.

As for Declan being the "leader" I wouldn't call him that but I am happy for him to be the head of the organisation. He's a bright, articulate and able person, why wouldn't anybody want him as the chairman and he's a decent bloke to boot.

Quote :

To me it seems a private affair but is now looking for candidates and cash and is threatening to run candidates in the EU elections.

To you it seems... to everybody it seems, there was a bloody launch in Brussels, you're talking like it's news... very odd behaviour.

Ok you say he is a decent "bloke" and that he is the leader. How did that selection take place? You may have had a launch but there were no candidates announced. So what gives are you going to have candidates? Who decides? Can I run? How will I be funded if I join and run?

You seem to have spent an awful lot of time looking at libertas.eu, the answers to those questions are there.

You are here arguing so break it down for us here.

Well to put it bluntly, no you can't run. Libertas has stated it is looking for high calibre candidates. You are quite obviously not high calibre, you can hardly string a coherent sentence together.
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PostSubject: Vote for Frightened Albanian for Chairman of Libertas   Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:40 am

Frightened Albanian wrote:
cookiemonster wrote:
Frightened Albanian wrote:
Is it a private party? Well it is registered as a limited company and mea culpa for not getting the documents. No one elected a leader so Ganley is self appointed.
The party evolved from a "think tank" the Libertas Institute, Has it wound down or is it a parallel organisation like the Forum on Public Safety in Europe and North America?

You're not making any sense at all. I've told you before that the Forum on Public Safety isn't a think tank and isn't the "sister organisation" of Libertas as you keep claiming it is.

As for Declan being the "leader" I wouldn't call him that but I am happy for him to be the head of the organisation. He's a bright, articulate and able person, why wouldn't anybody want him as the chairman and he's a decent bloke to boot.

Quote :

To me it seems a private affair but is now looking for candidates and cash and is threatening to run candidates in the EU elections.

To you it seems... to everybody it seems, there was a bloody launch in Brussels, you're talking like it's news... very odd behaviour.

Ok you say he is a decent "bloke" and that he is the leader. How did that selection take place? You may have had a launch but there were no candidates announced. So what gives are you going to have candidates? Who decides? Can I run? How will I be funded if I join and run?

FA I think you should run. Email them. and launch your candidacy for Chairman of Libertas, and future Presidente of the EU.
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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:43 am

Anticoalition wrote:


FA I think you should run. Email them. and launch your candidacy for Chairman of Libertas, and future Presidente of the EU.

Well, we could all do with a laugh.
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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:44 am

I have thought about it. Maybe the next man through the door and looking to run will be Frightened Albanian himself! But will I get funded? and how?
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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:48 am

Frightened Albanian wrote:
I have thought about it. Maybe the next man through the door and looking to run will be Frightened Albanian himself!

Good idea. I think I will join too. I'm a believer now. Twisted Evil


Last edited by Anticoalition on Thu Dec 18, 2008 5:18 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:54 am

What will the structure of this party be? Very web based? What communications systems will be used? Will there be cumanns, local groups that meet?,Will the party elect a leader at any point or is that a position for life?
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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:59 am

Frightened Albanian wrote:
But will I get funded? and how?

I wouldn't ask too many questions up front. But I get the feeling, with all the leaks going on (like with that Irish Times journalist), that there are a more than a few disgruntled Libertas employees and former employees who would be happy to tell you.
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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Thu Dec 18, 2008 7:37 am

To finish with regulation. Fraud is fraud and would be prosecuted but government interference between business dealing is out. Start with the SEC because 50 billion has just been robbed. They are there to help their friends not Joe Smo.

Why the ado about Ganley. He is forming a party so who else should be leader. Until proven otherwise this hysterical backlash is just panic from old party members being left in the dust. Otherwise it is left wing idealists panicing that a right wing popular strongman might steal away their garden of Eden.

Lets say Ganley is wildly successfull. Why not make him president of the EU instead of picking useless toadies like Bertie or Tony Blair

I can identify with what Antioalition says at times about left/right and maybe he could make a stand in the local elections. If ever there was a time where the electorate is open to new ideas it is now.
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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Thu Dec 18, 2008 12:31 pm

youngdan wrote:
To finish with regulation. Fraud is fraud and would be prosecuted but government interference between business dealing is out. Start with the SEC because 50 billion has just been robbed. They are there to help their friends not Joe Smo.

Why the ado about Ganley. He is forming a party so who else should be leader. Until proven otherwise this hysterical backlash is just panic from old party members being left in the dust. Otherwise it is left wing idealists panicing that a right wing popular strongman might steal away their garden of Eden.

Lets say Ganley is wildly successfull. Why not make him president of the EU instead of picking useless toadies like Bertie or Tony Blair

I can identify with what Antioalition says at times about left/right and maybe he could make a stand in the local elections. If ever there was a time where the electorate is open to new ideas it is now.

I'm inclined, minus the panic, to agree with that characterisation. I oppose of Declan Ganley politically from the left. He and is organisation have been less than clear in presenting their politics: I bit of digging shows that they are a far right grouping. His business history and his politics have been mututally informative about his motivation. Now he has declared, and launched a party. At this stage, unless something new of real interest emerged, surely it is high time to focus on the politics?

The right in FG want to stick him with some cloaks and daggers "non-irish" label, in the hopes that he will go away. With the PDs gone, Ganley is politically closest to Fine Gael and they are right to think he might take votes from them.

I think its time that everyone who opposes Ganley puts their political cards on the table, or else any complaints from them about lack of transparency will not look good.

Left and right are chalk and cheese. In Ireland we have political parties mainly representing the business class and pretending that they are for all men.
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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:10 pm

youngdan wrote:
To finish with regulation. Fraud is fraud and would be prosecuted but government interference between business dealing is out. Start with the SEC because 50 billion has just been robbed. They are there to help their friends not Joe Smo.

Why the ado about Ganley. He is forming a party so who else should be leader. Until proven otherwise this hysterical backlash is just panic from old party members being left in the dust. Otherwise it is left wing idealists panicing that a right wing popular strongman might steal away their garden of Eden.

Lets say Ganley is wildly successfull. Why not make him president of the EU instead of picking useless toadies like Bertie or Tony Blair

I can identify with what Antioalition says at times about left/right and maybe he could make a stand in the local elections. If ever there was a time where the electorate is open to new ideas it is now.

There's fraud and then there's pork barrel, which isn't strictly illegal. The 'pork business' in Ireland is alive and well, and I estimate has counted for about half of Government spending over the last ten years alone. pig

To be honest, it is impossible to talk about Libertas, without talking about Ganley, because it is a one man show. Even the new Libertas.eu web site is nearly all about him.

I am glad we have some common ground dan, and look forward to exploring these issues further, although I have to retire for a week or two here, and get some work done. As for elections, not this time around anyway, as I have too many ongoing commitments.

Happy Holidays to you all santa


Last edited by Anticoalition on Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:14 pm

cactus flower wrote:
youngdan wrote:
To finish with regulation. Fraud is fraud and would be prosecuted but government interference between business dealing is out. Start with the SEC because 50 billion has just been robbed. They are there to help their friends not Joe Smo.

Why the ado about Ganley. He is forming a party so who else should be leader. Until proven otherwise this hysterical backlash is just panic from old party members being left in the dust. Otherwise it is left wing idealists panicing that a right wing popular strongman might steal away their garden of Eden.

Lets say Ganley is wildly successfull. Why not make him president of the EU instead of picking useless toadies like Bertie or Tony Blair

I can identify with what Antioalition says at times about left/right and maybe he could make a stand in the local elections. If ever there was a time where the electorate is open to new ideas it is now.

I'm inclined, minus the panic, to agree with that characterisation. I oppose of Declan Ganley politically from the left. He and is organisation have been less than clear in presenting their politics: I bit of digging shows that they are a far right grouping. His business history and his politics have been mututally informative about his motivation. Now he has declared, and launched a party. At this stage, unless something new of real interest emerged, surely it is high time to focus on the politics?

The right in FG want to stick him with some cloaks and daggers "non-irish" label, in the hopes that he will go away. With the PDs gone, Ganley is politically closest to Fine Gael and they are right to think he might take votes from them.

I think its time that everyone who opposes Ganley puts their political cards on the table, or else any complaints from them about lack of transparency will not look good.

Left and right are chalk and cheese. In Ireland we have political parties mainly representing the business class and pretending that they are for all men.

I can honestly say I am not a member, or even supporter, of any political party in Ireland. I'd like to be, and I think a lot of others would to. Maybe that's why there is such an interest, and indeed such disappointment, that when a new party was finally launched, that it is so suspect, and so anti-citizen and pro-business.
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