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 The Privatisation of Irish Politics

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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:17 pm

Auditor #9 wrote:
I'm in agreement with cookie, youngdan and slim buddha even though I'm a big leftie according to the test. Clear, simple, meaningful regulation, perhaps with an intuitive, transparent mechanism for update and adjustment.

This is one of the things which I get confused/annoyed about over the whole left/right divide. The idea that one, being a leftie MUST be infavour of massive amounts of regulation on every aspect of everything and one being a righty must favour little or no regulation at all on anything. It's simply not the case either way.

I am, however, an advocate of as little regulation as necessary but I don't go as far as some to say that there should be none. The Daddy of Classical economics, Adam Smith, recognised the need for some regulation.

But what we have seen, in recent times and what I believe is partly to blame for the damaged economic outlook, is a low/moderate amount of regulation but none of it has been smart regulation. Those making it were underfunded and anybody who could have been useful and bright enough to create effective regulation was poached by those who would be regulated to create more complex ways to exploit the existing regulation rather than have then hit a balance between to two. The gulf then became exponential as the money on one side increased and dried up on the other. It simply wasn't sustainable. But even after the tipping point was reached and everything went tits up the regulation situation looks like it's not going to change! Which is, of course, madness. Nobody, either on the right or left, political divide wants to see a repeat of the last yeat or what looks likely to be the next 3-5 years of financial turmoil as it benefits neither.
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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:25 pm

Anticoalition wrote:
Cookie would be an expert in exploitation, by highly paid people, wouldn't he?
I have no idea what you are getting at here, nor have I any desire to find out.

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It is bad faith, and bad politics, to suggest that Libertas does not want to middle in national politics in Ireland or any EU country, and is only interested in a pan-European Party.
How is the truth bad faith/politics? That is the case and there is nothing anywhere to suggest otherwise.

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Libertas was founded on meddling in an Irish constitutional referendum. And we are all being held accountable for it.
Libertas was founded, or at least came into the limelight, to promote a particular opinion in the Lisbon Treaty referendum. Advocating and promoting that view isn't, in my vire, "meddling".

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Hiring a load of smart people, with no principles, is not how to run a government, in Ireland, or anywhere else.
Quango much?

If you are suggesting the above about Libertas you are very wrong to suggest that those involved are unprincipled. Also, there is no suggestion that Libertas intend to run any government or indeed run anything other than another successful Lisbon campaign and a successful pan-european political party.

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What about education Cookie? Doesn't that count for something? The reality is that we now have some mediocre businessman, with no third level education, prancing around telling everyone what to do, when he has no idea what he is talking about. And anything that does come out of his mouth is contradicted by fact and logic.
What? Honestly? You're suggesting that somebody without a Third Level degree shouldn't be listend to, respected? Shouldn't be allowed lead a successful campaign? Shouldn't be allowed promote his ideas to the people of ireland or the people of Europe and ask for their supporty? That's total and utter crap! Having a third level degree shouldn't and doesn't matter a damn, to suggest otherwise is total nonsense and I am genuinely shocked that you would suggest such a thing.

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Speaking of facts, does this look like a very inspiring set of denials to you?
http://libertas.eu/facts
Yes. It does.
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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:47 pm

cookiemonster wrote:
Anticoalition wrote:
Cookie would be an expert in exploitation, by highly paid people, wouldn't he?
I have no idea what you are getting at here, nor have I any desire to find out.

[mod]A mild warning to Anticoalition here. Slagging other posters is not acceptable. Libertas is a corporate entity, and has no feelings to be hurt, but the rest of us are human, and do.[/mod]


Last edited by ibis on Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:48 pm

cookiemonster wrote:
toxic avenger wrote:
Youngdan is correct, lip service is paid to the 'free market', as it is to 'free trade', but they're not 'free'. There is complete hypocrisy in relation to both (don't get me started on 'free trade', it's an abominable joke). Youngdan would no doubt prefer that regulation didn't exist, I'd prefer that the markets were regulated up to their eyeballs, but his point is correct.

I'd much prefer that they were lightly regulated but regulated by good regulation and dynamic regulation being created by smart people, with a balance of those who create and worth within said regulation on both sides rather than lots of regulation by mediocre people being exploited by exceptionally bright and well paid people on the opposite side.

I was exaggerating the point to an extent, I think that much of what has been de-regulated clearly has to be re-regulated, I think even the right in America know that now, but obviously not knuckle-headed red-tape and pen-pushing. I'd probably prefer more regulation than you, but your point is basically correct.
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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:50 pm

toxic avenger wrote:
cookiemonster wrote:
toxic avenger wrote:
Youngdan is correct, lip service is paid to the 'free market', as it is to 'free trade', but they're not 'free'. There is complete hypocrisy in relation to both (don't get me started on 'free trade', it's an abominable joke). Youngdan would no doubt prefer that regulation didn't exist, I'd prefer that the markets were regulated up to their eyeballs, but his point is correct.

I'd much prefer that they were lightly regulated but regulated by good regulation and dynamic regulation being created by smart people, with a balance of those who create and worth within said regulation on both sides rather than lots of regulation by mediocre people being exploited by exceptionally bright and well paid people on the opposite side.

I was exaggerating the point to an extent, I think that much of what has been de-regulated clearly has to be re-regulated, I think even the right in America know that now, but obviously not knuckle-headed red-tape and pen-pushing. I'd probably prefer more regulation than you, but your point is basically correct.

I'd go for the lower and smarter levels of regulation myself. I'm happy to be in the relatively unregulated sector I'm in than something like import/export.
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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:16 am

Cookie. Face facts. Your 'organisation' is a sham. You have no candidates and no platform. Your organisation stands for nothing, but the glorification of greed and ego. You want our money and our vote, and yet you claim you don't want to meddle in our politics. What a joke.

Now that you are here can you please tell us if Libertas got EU money for its No campaign?
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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:19 am

I would like to know more about the kind of new party you would like to see Anti-coalition.
I agree the class base of our politics has been obscured to some extent by nationalism of various tendencies.

Your point about Libertas is interesting. We have had politicians, like McCreevy, who represent the corporations, but we are less used to a political party that is a corporation.

That is a clear statement by cookiemonster - an opportunity, or opportunities, have been seen in the structure of EU politics.

Youngdan's point I also agree with up to a point: without political support, there are limits to what Libertas can do.
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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:49 am

Anticoalition wrote:
Cookie. Face facts.
Unlike you and some of your cohorts I have no difficulty facing facts, should anything you present resemble a fact I would be delighted to take it into consideration. Thus far, however, you have failed. But I remain optimistic for the future.

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Your 'organisation' is a sham.
That's your opinion, you are entitled to it, but I don't agree.

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You have no candidates and no platform.
No, we don't. However we are working on that. It's a very exciting time.

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Your organisation stands for nothing
Sure we do.

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but the glorification of greed and ego.
Not at all.

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You want our money and our vote, and yet you claim you don't want to meddle in our politics. What a joke.
You're moving goalposts. Libertas want votes, sure and need money, show me a political party that seeks neither. I disagree with your use of the word "meddle" which suggests doing something wrong or untoward. Libertas, obviously, seeks to become involved in European politics. I don't consider it a joke.

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Now that you are here can you please tell us if Libertas got EU money for its No campaign?
Seeing as you are the only person I am aware of who has ever brought up the possibility of Libertas having recieved EU funding for it's No to Lisbon campaign can you please indicate under what legislation, rule, organisational precedure or otherwise an organisation such as Libertas may have had access to EU funding for such a campaign?
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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:54 am

cactus flower wrote:
I would like to know more about the kind of new party you would like to see Anti-coalition.
I agree the class base of our politics has been obscured to some extent by nationalism of various tendencies.

Your point about Libertas is interesting. We have had politicians, like McCreevy, who represent the corporations, but we are less used to a political party that is a corporation.

That is a clear statement by cookiemonster - an opportunity, or opportunities, have been seen in the structure of EU politics.

Youngdan's point I also agree with up to a point: without political support, there are limits to what Libertas can do.

Any political party is primarily a collection of people. We need people we can believe in, and be inspired by, who have the knowledge and experience to do the job they are given. Libertas fails on the first hurdle.

I think it would be rash to suddenly propose an instant re-writing of almost a century of evolution of Irish laws and policies, which make up the system we have now. One of the biggest problems we have in the country is a lack of enforcement, due to manipulation by private interests.

Since the Magna Charta itself was written, it has been the function of every administration in Ireland to rape the public purse, and haul off as much of the national resources as possible, to a circle of cronies. I would like to see that practice come to an end, and a true spirit of public, rather than self service, take hold in Ireland.

As for the left/right divide, I like elements of both, and I suppose a centrist path would best fit, if there had to be a description. I believe in competition, but I also believe in regulation.

The ideology would be based on human and civil rights, protecting and empowering the citizen, as opposed to the corporation, as much as possible.

I would support a European confederacy more than a European federal government. That is why I think it is dangerous, and futile, to separate national from EU politics. They are now different levels of the same system, which is evolving a little too quickly, in some respects, and a little too slowly in others. But it works, and I hope it continues to, and we can enjoy peace and prosperity, and be free from economic and military tyranny.


Last edited by Anticoalition on Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:09 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:00 am

cookiemonster wrote:
Anticoalition wrote:
Now that you are here can you please tell us if Libertas got EU money for its No campaign?
Seeing as you are the only person I am aware of who has ever brought up the possibility of Libertas having recieved EU funding for it's No to Lisbon campaign can you please indicate under what legislation, rule, organisational precedure or otherwise an organisation such as Libertas may have had access to EU funding for such a campaign?

Answering a question with more questions is the oldest form of evasion there is.

It was a simple question. Did Libertas receive EU funding for the No campaign?
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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:08 am

Anticoalition wrote:
cookiemonster wrote:
Anticoalition wrote:
Now that you are here can you please tell us if Libertas got EU money for its No campaign?
Seeing as you are the only person I am aware of who has ever brought up the possibility of Libertas having recieved EU funding for it's No to Lisbon campaign can you please indicate under what legislation, rule, organisational precedure or otherwise an organisation such as Libertas may have had access to EU funding for such a campaign?

Answering a question with more questions is the oldest form of evasion there is.

It was a simple question. Did Libertas receive EU funding for the No campaign?

So you can't direct us to any precedure/function/grant/rule or legislation where by Libertas may have had access to EU funding for their No to Lisbon campaign?
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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:10 am

If they did, presumably they were entitled to it?

It is something I've never seen suggested - eurosceptic funding suggested here and everyone else not excluding the tooth fairy, but not the EU.

EU Funding for Lisbon cached search.

UK eurosceptics claimed that pro Constitution groups were EU funded and if you looked around you would find all kinds of funding from all sides.
I don't see the connection of this issue with the interesting thread topic.
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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:15 am

cookiemonster wrote:
Anticoalition wrote:
cookiemonster wrote:
Anticoalition wrote:
Now that you are here can you please tell us if Libertas got EU money for its No campaign?
Seeing as you are the only person I am aware of who has ever brought up the possibility of Libertas having recieved EU funding for it's No to Lisbon campaign can you please indicate under what legislation, rule, organisational precedure or otherwise an organisation such as Libertas may have had access to EU funding for such a campaign?

Answering a question with more questions is the oldest form of evasion there is.

It was a simple question. Did Libertas receive EU funding for the No campaign?

So you can't direct us to any precedure/function/grant/rule or legislation where by Libertas may have had access to EU funding for their No to Lisbon campaign?

Another dodge, instead of an answer.

This is exactly why Libertas are so dodgy.

Why don't you tell us the answer? After all, you are the ones fighting for openness, accountability and transparency.

It can't be so difficult. If you don't know, then get on the IM to your buddy Dec, and put it to him. Then tell us the answer. Yes or no. It's not very complicated. What's the problem?
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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:25 am

cactus flower wrote:
If they did, presumably they were entitled to it?

It is something I've never seen suggested - eurosceptic funding suggested here and everyone else not excluding the tooth fairy, but not the EU.


EU Funding for Lisbon cached search.

UK eurosceptics claimed that pro Constitution groups were EU funded and if you looked around you would find all kinds of funding from all sides.
I don't see the connection of this issue with the interesting thread topic.

Sorry if we are wandering off-topic here. But I think that the issue of funding, along with the willingness to be open about it, goes to the heart of what the problem is with Libertas, and what should not be the problem with any new political party. Let's see if we can get one straight answer from Cookie Libertas while we have him here.

Based on his response so far, I believe that they did receive EU funding, and want to keep it a secret. Now they are worried that the cat is out of the bag, and want to check to make sure if we know for sure, before they admit to anything. If the answer was no, then Cookie would have said it immediately, wouldn't he?


Last edited by Anticoalition on Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:33 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:30 am

Anticoalition wrote:
cookiemonster wrote:
Anticoalition wrote:
cookiemonster wrote:
Anticoalition wrote:
Now that you are here can you please tell us if Libertas got EU money for its No campaign?
Seeing as you are the only person I am aware of who has ever brought up the possibility of Libertas having recieved EU funding for it's No to Lisbon campaign can you please indicate under what legislation, rule, organisational precedure or otherwise an organisation such as Libertas may have had access to EU funding for such a campaign?

Answering a question with more questions is the oldest form of evasion there is.

It was a simple question. Did Libertas receive EU funding for the No campaign?

So you can't direct us to any precedure/function/grant/rule or legislation where by Libertas may have had access to EU funding for their No to Lisbon campaign?

Another dodge, instead of an answer.

This is exactly why Libertas are so dodgy.

Why don't you tell us the answer? After all, you are the ones fighting for openness, accountability and transparency.

It can't be so difficult. If you don't know, then get on the IM to your buddy Dec, and put it to him. Then tell us the answer. Yes or no. It's not very complicated. What's the problem?

What you have done is your usual trick of fabricating a weird and potentially damaging issue out of your arse with the sole intention of creating a straw man issue to hide the fact that you're totally out of shit to throw at Libertas and Declan Ganley.

You've just made the issue up. You haven't a clue.
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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:31 am

Anticoalition wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
If they did, presumably they were entitled to it?

It is something I've never seen suggested - eurosceptic funding suggested here and everyone else not excluding the tooth fairy, but not the EU.


EU Funding for Lisbon cached search.

UK eurosceptics claimed that pro Constitution groups were EU funded and if you looked around you would find all kinds of funding from all sides.
I don't see the connection of this issue with the interesting thread topic.

Sorry if we are wandering off-topic here. But I think that the issue of funding, along with the willingness to be open about it, go to the heart of what the problem is with Libertas, and what should not be the problem with any new political party. Let's see if we can get one straight answer from Cookie Libertas while we have him here.

I think it is off-topic in this thread: there are a couple of threads here already that deal with it. Your opening post is about Libertas as a company/party, if I understand it rightly, and the possibility of a new form of party in general.

Plus I'm a little confounded by the question. I'm sure the EU funded all kinds of groups that made the pro case at one stage or another. Why would it be a big issue if Libertas was EU funded (- apologies, I'm off topic too now).
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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:36 am

cactus flower wrote:
Anticoalition wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
If they did, presumably they were entitled to it?

It is something I've never seen suggested - eurosceptic funding suggested here and everyone else not excluding the tooth fairy, but not the EU.

EU Funding for Lisbon cached search.

UK eurosceptics claimed that pro Constitution groups were EU funded and if you looked around you would find all kinds of funding from all sides.
I don't see the connection of this issue with the interesting thread topic.

Sorry if we are wandering off-topic here. But I think that the issue of funding, along with the willingness to be open about it, go to the heart of what the problem is with Libertas, and what should not be the problem with any new political party. Let's see if we can get one straight answer from Cookie Libertas while we have him here.

I think it is off-topic in this thread: there are a couple of threads here already that deal with it. Your opening post is about Libertas as a company/party, if I understand it rightly, and the possibility of a new form of party in general.

Plus I'm a little confounded by the question. I'm sure the EU funded all kinds of groups that made the pro case at one stage or another. Why would it be a big issue if Libertas was EU funded (- apologies, I'm off topic too now).

The primary necessity for any new party is credibility or integrity. Can we believe what they say? Can we trust them to tell the truth?

I am not too concerned one way or the other, whether Libertas got EU funding, but I am concerned that they would try to hide it; that they would be dishonest about it. And I am even more concerned when I ask a member a direct question, and can't get a simple answer.


Last edited by Anticoalition on Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:58 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:37 am

So far it does seem like a private party with a self appointed leader and paid staff.
Most counties in the 27 links on Libertas.ue lead to a generic page looking for candidates and cash. NO content.
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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:39 am

Anticoalition wrote:


Based on his response so far, I believe that they did receive EU funding, and want to keep it a secret.
What you believe and what is actually the case have very little if anything in common.


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Now they are worried that the cat is out of the bag,
I am sure Libertas are worried about a great many thing, attempting to launch a pan european political party across 27 countries is no small deal I assure you.


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and want to check to make sure if we know for sure, before they admit to anything.
There are a number of people greatly interested in EU funding, some of them leading figures in the EU itself. I as full sure that should such funding exist they would both know about it and made it public by now.

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If the answer was no, then Cookie would have said it immediately, wouldn't he?
That just goes to show that you don't know me very well.
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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:43 am

Anticoalition wrote:


I am not too concerned one way or the other, whether Libertas got EU funding,
Given the song and dance you have caused over this non issue, that would seem not to hold true.

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but I am concerned that they would try to hide it;
Indeed, were you able to provide one even tenuious shred of proof that it was actually the case.

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that they would be dishonest about it.
As would creating a non-issue to further your weird anti-libertas agenda.

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And I am even more concerned when I ask a member a direct question, and can't get a simple answer.
I am concerned over people who fabricate facts, lie, smear and peddle in innuendo.
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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:43 am

I'll make it very simple for you Cookie.

Did Libertas receive EU funding for the No campaign?

YES

or

NO


(Failing to answer with a yes or no indicates that the answer is in fact YES)
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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:45 am

How would his failure to answer indicate yes? Perhaps he doesn't know, perhaps he doesn't want to comment.
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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:49 am

Anticoalition wrote:
I'll make it very simple for you Cookie.

Did Libertas receive EU funding for the No campaign?

YES

or

NO


And I will make it very simple. And you point to anything, a sentence anywhere which you think may have allowed Libertas access to EU funds for their No To Lisbon campaign? Or have you just made this up?


Quote :
(Failing to answer with a yes or no indicates that the answer is in fact YES
That might work if we were 12. We're not.
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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:51 am

johnfás wrote:
How would his failure to answer indicate yes? Perhaps he doesn't know, perhaps he doesn't want to comment.

He is speaking on behalf of Libertas. He has a duty to know, or find out, and answer the question, which concerns the use of public money (i.e. our money) by Libertas. We have a right to know.

Failing to answer the simple and reasonable question is an act of avoidance, pure and simple, which to me is a sign of guilt.
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PostSubject: Re: The Privatisation of Irish Politics   Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:54 am

Frightened Albanian wrote:
So far it does seem like a private party with a self appointed leader and paid staff.
Most counties in the 27 links on Libertas.ue lead to a generic page looking for candidates and cash. NO content.

This is what they look like so far - only a few are in the native languages too - Estonia for example.
http://www.libertas.eu/estonia

Surely they'll want candidates and voters who have an interest in the content - policies, manifestos etc. .. maybe they just created those links recently and the site is more of a building site at the moment. Understandable, no ?



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