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 CAEUC - The Left Opposition to Lisbon

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PostSubject: CAEUC - The Left Opposition to Lisbon   Sun Dec 14, 2008 5:44 pm

http://www.caeuc.org/index.php?q=node/6

In Lisbon 1 a limited amount was heard on the boards from the Left opposition to Lisbon.

The Campaign Against the EU Constitution (CAEUC) is a grouping of leftwing parties and organisations who co-ordinated a campaign against the Lisbon Treaty. These are the parties:

Communist Party of Ireland
Community & Workers Action Group
Éirígí
Irish Anti-War Movement
Irish Republican Socialist Party
Irish Socialist Network
Peace & Neutrality Alliance
People Before Profit
People's Movement
Sinn Féin
Socialist Party
Socialist Workers Party
Workers Party
Affiliates from other EU countries:
ATTAC Austria
ATTAC France

The Campaign put out a very short Press Release on 12th December
http://www.caeuc.org/

Quote :
As it stands, the Lisbon Treaty commits the EU to liberalise trade, prohibit restrictions on capital movements, and boost military capabilities. In other words, it continues the free market, militaristic policies that got the world into the economic and political mess it is now in – from the financial crisis to the killing fields of Iraq and Afghanistan.

We need a different model of Europe – one that would be supported by the vast majority of European people if they were given a say in the matter – that prioritises social development, justice and peace.

Anyone is welcome to post for or against the CAEUC viewpoint on this thread.
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PostSubject: Re: CAEUC - The Left Opposition to Lisbon   Sun Dec 14, 2008 6:14 pm

I wonder on what CAEUC bases the belief that the European Union contributed to the military invasion of Iraq. If anything, a stronger Union would have been more likely to halt such a development given that there would have been a stronger and better defined policy from the bloc.
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PostSubject: Re: CAEUC - The Left Opposition to Lisbon   Sun Dec 14, 2008 6:30 pm

johnfás wrote:
I wonder on what CAEUC bases the belief that the European Union contributed to the military invasion of Iraq. If anything, a stronger Union would have been more likely to halt such a development given that there would have been a stronger and better defined policy from the bloc.

As far as I can make out a lot of it is driven by "anything military is bad, and it's a thousand times worse if we can be considered in any way connected to it". Hand-washing hypocrisy.
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PostSubject: Re: CAEUC - The Left Opposition to Lisbon   Sun Dec 14, 2008 7:25 pm

That looks like a very diverse group. I wonder if it is difficult for them to come up with anything very specific they can agree on.
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PostSubject: Re: CAEUC - The Left Opposition to Lisbon   Sun Dec 14, 2008 7:28 pm

Yes I would imagine the Peace and Neutrality Alliance and Éirigí have good fun sharing a room.
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PostSubject: Re: CAEUC - The Left Opposition to Lisbon   Sun Dec 14, 2008 7:32 pm

johnfás wrote:
Yes I would imagine the Peace and Neutrality Alliance and Éirigí have good fun sharing a room.

Online, at least, they seem to get along very well.
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PostSubject: Re: CAEUC - The Left Opposition to Lisbon   Sun Dec 14, 2008 7:58 pm

ibis wrote:
johnfás wrote:
Yes I would imagine the Peace and Neutrality Alliance and Éirigí have good fun sharing a room.

Online, at least, they seem to get along very well.

From that is seems that Eirigi is part of PANA.
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PostSubject: Re: CAEUC - The Left Opposition to Lisbon   Sun Dec 14, 2008 8:14 pm

I see that PANA/CAEUC were behind the mock funeral procession for the Lisbon Treaty on Friday:

Quote :
Mock "Funeral" for the Lisbon Treaty
Article six of the Irish Constitution states that all power derives from the people and they must agree to change it by way of a referendum. They were asked in such a referendum if they wished to amend the Constitution to ensure the provisions of the Lisbon Treaty became part of and superior to the Irish Constitution. They voted no. It is dead.

The Irish Government and the Irish ruling class have refused to accept the sovereign will of the Irish people and intend to use all their power and wealth to intimidate them into reversing their decision in 2009 and will be informing the EU ruling elite of their decision on the 11th of December.

To mark the occasion PANA and CAECU are organisng a mock "funeral" for the Lisbon Treaty which will assemble outside the EU office in Molesworth Street at 6.00pm on the 11th of December and march to government Buildings in Merrion Street.

The first paragraph contains a factual error - the provisions of EU treaties are not superior to the Irish Constitution.

The second contains the usual guff about 'elites', which continues to form a major part of the narrative of political victimhood despite regular reports from outside observer bodies showing we have a free and fair press, a free and fair political system, and low levels of corruption - and further external reports showing that these things are equally true of the EU.

The third merely contains spelling errors.

My own thesis at this stage is that we have to put up with this kind of rhetorical hyperbole not merely because many of those involved think that way, but because the parties/people concerned know that their real arguments will persuade only the already persuaded handful.
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PostSubject: Re: CAEUC - The Left Opposition to Lisbon   Sun Dec 14, 2008 8:20 pm

First paragraph really depends on your interpretation of the situation. In actual law the Constitution, by way of alteration, granted the European legal order precedence over Irish law thus maintaining its position as the de jure most superior source of Irish law. However, the obvious outcome of that is that European Law is superior to all aspects of Irish law. Quite how the Supreme Court would cope with an action which sought to pit the Constitution against the European Treaties is an interesting one. It is however entirely hypothetical because it would always be ensured that the Treaties did not conflict with the Constitution and if they were to the Government would propose amendment of whatever Constitutional provision in tandem with an amendment to ratify whatever Treaty was in conflict.
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PostSubject: Re: CAEUC - The Left Opposition to Lisbon   Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:02 am

I love it when commies try to make legal arguments.
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PostSubject: Re: CAEUC - The Left Opposition to Lisbon   Mon Dec 15, 2008 11:59 am

evercloserunion wrote:
I love it when commies try to make legal arguments.

It is my hope that someone from PANA might find their way here and present their analysis of the EU. Is there anyone we could invite?
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PostSubject: Re: CAEUC - The Left Opposition to Lisbon   Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:08 pm

Surely Hermes will suffice as the resident Leftie? I can't remember where he stands on the issue.

The mock funeral thing is getting quite pathetic. Whatever about the legality of re-running the referendum or the morals or the ethics, IT IS HAPPENING. STOP STICKING YEER HEADS IN THE SAND AND INSISTING THAT IT'S DEAD. ACCEPT THAT IT IS STILL THERE.
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PostSubject: Re: CAEUC - The Left Opposition to Lisbon   Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:11 pm

905 wrote:
Surely Hermes will suffice as the resident Leftie? I can't remember where he stands on the issue.

The mock funeral thing is getting quite pathetic. Whatever about the legality of re-running the referendum or the morals or the ethics, IT IS HAPPENING. STOP STICKING YEER HEADS IN THE SAND AND INSISTING THAT IT'S DEAD. ACCEPT THAT IT IS STILL THERE.

Depending on where you stand, a need for reinforcements might be felt.
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PostSubject: Re: CAEUC - The Left Opposition to Lisbon   Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:21 pm

There is no issue of legality, I think that has been pretty much determined. A court intervention to stop the Oireachtas carrying out its job within the remit of the Constitution would be entirely unconstitutional. As Costello CJ (I think) said your correct course of action is to lobby Leinster House, not the Four Courts.

Morals and ethics is an entirely different matter which is subjective in nature.
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PostSubject: Re: CAEUC - The Left Opposition to Lisbon   Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:49 pm

Your resident leftie has sent out for reinforcements. I'm not a member of CAEUC and it wouldn't be proper for me to presume to speak on their behalves. Besides that, I'm not up to scratch with regard to debating Lisbon. Being anti-EU and being able to argue my position well from that perspective, somewhat neutralised the need for me to bone up on Lisbon, to the degree at least where I wouldn't look like a punch drunk in need of sympathy rather than the beating I'd be taking. That being the case, I've mostly stayed out of the Lisbon debate as most of my arguments tend to drag intricate arguments miles off course. I think my input might frustrate all concerned, myself included. And worse, it might shine a bad light on those of my persuasion, who can and will put together relevant arguments.

We should have a new member registering with us later this week. I'm quite sure that he'll provide much food for thought.
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PostSubject: Re: CAEUC - The Left Opposition to Lisbon   Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:29 pm

Hermes wrote:
Your resident leftie has sent out for reinforcements. I'm not a member of CAEUC and it wouldn't be proper for me to presume to speak on their behalves. Besides that, I'm not up to scratch with regard to debating Lisbon. Being anti-EU and being able to argue my position well from that perspective, somewhat neutralised the need for me to bone up on Lisbon, to the degree at least where I wouldn't look like a punch drunk in need of sympathy rather than the beating I'd be taking. That being the case, I've mostly stayed out of the Lisbon debate as most of my arguments tend to drag intricate arguments miles off course. I think my input might frustrate all concerned, myself included. And worse, it might shine a bad light on those of my persuasion, who can and will put together relevant arguments.

We should have a new member registering with us later this week. I'm quite sure that he'll provide much food for thought.

Thanks Hermes.
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PostSubject: Re: CAEUC - The Left Opposition to Lisbon   Mon Dec 15, 2008 9:36 pm

Intriguing. Been spreading the good news have we Hermes?
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PostSubject: Re: CAEUC - The Left Opposition to Lisbon   Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:25 pm

905 wrote:
Intriguing. Been spreading the good news have we Hermes?

Looking forward to fresh meat, 905? Razz
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PostSubject: Re: CAEUC - The Left Opposition to Lisbon   Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:36 am

*taps fingers on laptop*
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