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 Greek Fire - Who should pay the price of the Crash ? Greece riots

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PostSubject: Re: Greek Fire - Who should pay the price of the Crash ? Greece riots   Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:15 am

The riots in Greece are nothing to do with the Euro - as I said before they are a cyclical immature revolt against the status quo in Greece that will peter out and the country will continue on voting for the sons of the former leaders of the country - be it the Karamalis clan on the centre right (New Democracy) and the Papandreou family on the centre left(PASOK), nothing much will change - its like being in a country with 2 Fianna Fail populists parties who occupy the entire centre and total fruitcakes on the fringes of both left and right.

Greece is as much part of the Middle East as it is Europe - In fact I would claim that its political,economic and social makeup has far more in common with Lebanon than it has with Luxembourg.

The reason Greece was let into the EU was to strenghten its democracy in 1977 after the junta fell in 1974/1975 - their economy was totally unprepared for it - but funnily enough - its has been a real boon for the Greeks and they have been among its most ferverent supporters - primarily because it allowed a competent organisation to have some say in the running of their country and didnt allow their feuding politicans to totally flush the country down the loo - where have we heard that one before. Greece was been here many times before since 1977 - and everytime YD and the Telegraph have orgasms over the fact that it will signal the end of the EU - but it never seems to happen and it wont happen this time.
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PostSubject: Re: Greek Fire - Who should pay the price of the Crash ? Greece riots   Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:14 pm

http://www.examiner.ie/story/World/qlsnqlmhoj/rss2/

Quote :
Two Greek policemen in court as riots restart
By Menelaos Hadjicostis

A GREEK court ordered yesterday that two policemen be held in jail pending their trial for a teenage boy’s fatal shooting — a death that has sparked five days of intensive riots in cities across the country.

One officer has been charged with murder for allegedly shooting dead 15-year-old Alexandros Grigoropoulos in a confrontation in Athens on Saturday. The other officer has been charged as an accomplice to murder. No trial date has been set.

Earlier in the day, protesters attacked Athens’ main courthouse with firebombs during a hearing for the two officers. Riot police responded by firing tear gas, and at least two people were injured.

Quote :
Greece’s two largest labour unions organised the protest, along with a national strike yesterday that shut down schools, public services, hospitals and flights, increasing pressure on Prime Minister Costas Karamanlis’ fragile conservative government.

The demonstrations and strike had been scheduled before the riots broke out, but were fuelled by anger at the government’s handling of the riots.

"This country is not being governed. The government can no longer convince anyone," Socialist party member Evangelos Venizelos said in Parliament. "There is no way Mr Karamanlis can come back from this."
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PostSubject: Re: Greek Fire - Who should pay the price of the Crash ? Greece riots   Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:16 pm

Edo wrote:
The riots in Greece are nothing to do with the Euro - as I said before they are a cyclical immature revolt against the status quo in Greece that will peter out and the country will continue on voting for the sons of the former leaders of the country - be it the Karamalis clan on the centre right (New Democracy) and the Papandreou family on the centre left(PASOK), nothing much will change - its like being in a country with 2 Fianna Fail populists parties who occupy the entire centre and total fruitcakes on the fringes of both left and right.

Greece is as much part of the Middle East as it is Europe - In fact I would claim that its political,economic and social makeup has far more in common with Lebanon than it has with Luxembourg.

The reason Greece was let into the EU was to strenghten its democracy in 1977 after the junta fell in 1974/1975 - their economy was totally unprepared for it - but funnily enough - its has been a real boon for the Greeks and they have been among its most ferverent supporters - primarily because it allowed a competent organisation to have some say in the running of their country and didnt allow their feuding politicans to totally flush the country down the loo - where have we heard that one before. Greece was been here many times before since 1977 - and everytime YD and the Telegraph have orgasms over the fact that it will signal the end of the EU - but it never seems to happen and it wont happen this time.

There is no mechanism currently to force a State to leave the EU. The Telegraph article is based on the idea that a number of states, Ireland and Spain included, are so indebted that they will jointly threaten the euro's stability as a currency. I'm not qualified to judge whether that is the case or not, but I wouldn't have predicted the collapse of the viability of the US car industry. Your knowledge of Greek politics suggests that there will no major change in Greece, and this is a "safety valve" event. That could turn out to be the case, but there are clearly going to be massive pressures on standards of living, public services and employment that are coming out of globalism and the shift in production from west to east. The Greeks may be reacting a bit differently from the Irish over public service cuts, but the causes are the same. We have a lot in common.
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PostSubject: Re: Greek Fire - Who should pay the price of the Crash ? Greece riots   Sun Dec 14, 2008 3:06 am

No idea who this writer is but I'm wondering if he has a point here that one potential upshot of the tension in Greece could be the reintroduction of the drachma ? Unemployment is 19% among youths he says and if the old currency was there then the country could drop its rates and become competitive overnight. It can be done anyway I'm sure but the rigidity of the Euro prevents them from doing it easily. You're talking about an overnight drop in the price of everything making the country a sudden border destination for pent-up cash and capital elsewhere. Sound a bit familiar ?

This brings perhaps some issues with Europe into context and new light now as we approach the Lisbon II debate - is the Euro framework way too rigid ? In the event of recessions like we're having then it might be something if there is economic activity of some kind - Germans going across the Danish border for cheap stuff for instance - like water flowing downhill - some economic activity is better than none.

The Euro presumes a homogeneity of cultures I think doesn't it ? Or a desire to move towards some form of cultural or bureacratic parity .. but that might just not happen when you have such competing entities like Greece and Germany..

Quote :
Under the Euro, though, this option is foreclosed. Greece no longer has its own central bank. The Euro is governed by a European Central Bank, which has to balance the interests of the whole continent. The ECB has to weigh Greece’s desire for cheaper currency (and its willingness to risk more inflation) against, say, Germany’s need for lower inflation (and thus a stronger currency).


You'd wonder could the wheels come off soon with what's going on ...

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PostSubject: Re: Greek Fire - Who should pay the price of the Crash ? Greece riots   Sun Dec 14, 2008 3:34 am

Clashes continue overnight reports the international herald tribune ..
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/12/14/europe/EU-Greece-Riots.php

Looks like it's pretty organised - the silver-helmetted dudes in the picture cactus posted ..

Quote :
ATHENS, Greece: Rioting youths in the Greek capital attacked a police station, stores and banks and fought running battles with police late Saturday, authorities said, as violent protests against a police killing continued for the eighth straight day.

The clashes broke out as candlelit vigils were being held to mark a week since the police shooting of a 15-year-old boy, which triggered the riots that are threatening the stability of the government.
...
The young protesters promised to remain on the streets until their concerns — including opposition to increasingly unpopular government and worry over economic issues — are addressed.

"Speaking as an anarchist, we want to create those social conditions that will generate more uprisings and to get more people out in the streets to demand their rights," said 32-year-old protester Paris Kyriakides.
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PostSubject: Re: Greek Fire - Who should pay the price of the Crash ? Greece riots   Sun Dec 14, 2008 3:37 am

[quote="Auditor #9"
Quote :
to demand their rights," said 32-year-old protester Paris Kyriakides.
[/quote]

What rights are these?
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PostSubject: Re: Greek Fire - Who should pay the price of the Crash ? Greece riots   Sun Dec 14, 2008 3:44 am

The drop in the value of Sterling is killing off our exporting businesses - there was a report on Breaking News today on this. The Euro was low when we needed it to be high to take some of the steam out of the economy.

Is there not a strong possibility that the drachma would collapse completely?
There is probably no right answer to this.

I guess no one knows at this stage if there is or isn't a real risk to the euro from the weaker economies.
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PostSubject: Re: Greek Fire - Who should pay the price of the Crash ? Greece riots   Sun Dec 14, 2008 3:53 am

I do
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PostSubject: Re: Greek Fire - Who should pay the price of the Crash ? Greece riots   Sun Dec 14, 2008 3:56 am

johnfás wrote:
Auditor #9 wrote:
Quote :
to demand their rights," said 32-year-old protester Paris Kyriakides.

What rights are these?

Don't know johnfás - something in the Declaration of Human Rights perhaps ?

cactus perhaps you are right and the drachma would collapse anyway - depends on the state of the Greek economy and the states of the adjacent states. It's possible that they are having border flows of cash like we are here - aren't there plenty of cheaper countries nearby to them ? And could this be the inevitable tensions between frontier states of a bloc and the ones immediately outside it ? Watching Northern Ireland is suddenly becoming more interesting now ...

The report said the Greeks were up to their proverbials in debt too - is everyone and their uncle in hock to their back teeth ? I guess they had a Spanish-style building frenzy there too and now the wind is leaving the sails.

I still don't get the origin of these Greek riots though ..
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PostSubject: Re: Greek Fire - Who should pay the price of the Crash ? Greece riots   Sun Dec 14, 2008 3:59 am

Auditor #9 wrote:


I still don't get the origin of these Greek riots though ..

A kid got shot by the police.

There are certain groups which want to riot and they will take any opportunity.
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PostSubject: Re: Greek Fire - Who should pay the price of the Crash ? Greece riots   Sun Dec 14, 2008 4:07 am

johnfás wrote:
Auditor #9 wrote:


I still don't get the origin of these Greek riots though ..

A kid got shot by the police.

There are certain groups which want to riot and they will take any opportunity.
So they were demonstrating and someone gets killed and now they're demonstrating about the protester who was killed ?

Do we know why there were demonstrations in the first place ?
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PostSubject: Re: Greek Fire - Who should pay the price of the Crash ? Greece riots   Sun Dec 14, 2008 4:18 am

Auditor #9 wrote:
johnfás wrote:
Auditor #9 wrote:


I still don't get the origin of these Greek riots though ..

A kid got shot by the police.

There are certain groups which want to riot and they will take any opportunity.
So they were demonstrating and someone gets killed and now they're demonstrating about the protester who was killed ?

Do we know why there were demonstrations in the first place ?

There is a good blog/conversation here in English by Greeks
http://eugenia.gnomefiles.org/images/commentbottom.gif

quote:
Quote :
What you don’t understand Eugenia is this: The burning of the properties, as I’ve said, IS NOT JUSTIFIED. English isn’t my native language but I think that I’ve said it clearly. Let me say it once more. The burning of the properties is not justified. The outbreak doesn’t involve ONLY the burning of the properties but all these school kids and students who are reacting (without burning), all Greek people who are disgusted by our corrupt political system. Can you in return understand that the burning is only one part of the problem? Or what you have seen and read thus far was only that? And can you understand that Alex’s death isn’t the main reason why people are so angry but that his death was the trigger that set the fire?

Unemployment, bad economy, corrupt politicians, corrupt religious leaders, corrupt policemen, scandals, low-wages, rotten health system, rotten insurance system, bad education. Shall I go on? And what we have heard all these years is this: We will give you bla bla bla. And the outcome is this: a zero. We are fed up. That’s why people are so angry. That’s the reason behind all of these. Alex’s death was the fuel. And I asked you the question cause you’ve said: “The policeman who shot the kid MIGHT have been wrong”.

Lots of interesting posts.


Last edited by cactus flower on Sun Dec 14, 2008 2:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Greek Fire - Who should pay the price of the Crash ? Greece riots   Sun Dec 14, 2008 5:03 am

Would this be the link
http://eugenia.gnomefiles.org/2008/12/09/regarding-the-greek-riots/

Yeah I just got sidetracked there over as far as Iceland again - the internet is great all the same - I arrived back here via p.ie.

The icelander I've subscribed to on youtube puts his comments of the upcoming demonstrations there on the posted piece. He is saying that the latest demonstrations are focusing again on the banks and the government takeover of Glitnir bank. They think it's corrupt.

Could this be about to happen here ? Mollox had a thread on p.ie about "Do we really need to recapitalise our banks?" which I haven't read fully yet but I'm guessing that there is a strand of opinion out there which would say NO NO NO. I think the problem is that no one really has a flying bull's notion of whether we need recapitalisation or bloody not. What if it's a matter of these lads just robbing the country ???? After all they did get themselves into it, our government (the ones I didn't vote for) ALLOWED them and now we're all suffering for the mistakes of some Nick Gleeson types only less charismatic.

If the shit truly hits the fan here then could we end up like Iceland waking up one fine day to find we were financially sodomised by a cartel of nepotists ? By then it would be way too late but we'll take to the street and beat our drums in vain anyway.

The likes of this could be happening now in Greece for all we really know.
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PostSubject: Re: Greek Fire - Who should pay the price of the Crash ? Greece riots   Sun Dec 14, 2008 5:27 am



http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,466664,00.html
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PostSubject: Re: Greek Fire - Who should pay the price of the Crash ? Greece riots   Sun Dec 14, 2008 2:20 pm

Auditor #9 wrote:
Clashes continue overnight reports the international herald tribune ..
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/12/14/europe/EU-Greece-Riots.php

Looks like it's pretty organised - the silver-helmetted dudes in the picture cactus posted ..

Quote :
ATHENS, Greece: Rioting youths in the Greek capital attacked a police station, stores and banks and fought running battles with police late Saturday, authorities said, as violent protests against a police killing continued for the eighth straight day.

The clashes broke out as candlelit vigils were being held to mark a week since the police shooting of a 15-year-old boy, which triggered the riots that are threatening the stability of the government.
...
The young protesters promised to remain on the streets until their concerns — including opposition to increasingly unpopular government and worry over economic issues — are addressed.

"Speaking as an anarchist, we want to create those social conditions that will generate more uprisings and to get more people out in the streets to demand their rights," said 32-year-old protester Paris Kyriakides.

I've watched some more video footage including the things you've posted Auditory #9 and it seems that the sequence of events was that there was a General Strike and mass demonstration on December 5th over pensions, privatisation and public service cuts.
This is footage of a massive peaceful demonstration with some helmetted police in action on the edge.



The following day, the 6th December, a policeman shot a 15 year old boy in the chest in full view of a large number of witnesses. There is a distinct possibility that it was a deliberate provocation intended to provoke riots and give an excuse for police action. The reaction may have been very much bigger than was anticipated.

The helmetted lads I posted previously are almost certainly police: check the footwear is the usual rule. This would also make me think that provocation was going on.

As well as the riots, but much less publicised there have been ongoing strikes and peaceful mass demonstrations.

Karamanlis's government has a majority of one.

Attacks on shops and banks are understandable, I read the police have killed more than 100 people in the last few years and young people are frustrated with unemployment, very low wages for young people (common all along the Med) and a poor education system. But they are protest actions only and would be unlikely on their own to lead to a change of government - more likely an excuse for martial law maybe? Perhaps if the students can keep working together with the organised demonstrations and strikes and call for a general election a change of government might be possible? They clearly need/want an alternative to the present Government.

You see a few more of the silver helmetted guys here - do you remember the "anarchists" ones on the Canadian thread?



Just listening to Euronews - they could find no-one at the funeral (thousands there) who would talk the Press. There is a lot of anger with the media for only showing repeated pictures of destruction and not explaining causes.

The boy killed was a middle class kid who was just visting Exarchia for a birthday celebration. Perhaps that is partly why there was such a big reaction. Young people are on 700 euro wages a month and there are endless corruption scandals.
A slogan is "we don't have a government, we're slaves to the banks". The reporting is focusing on the riots at the exclusion of reporting the much wider opposition to the Government.

The anarchists are making the running on the streets, although there were almost certainly police provocateurs there too.
In my mind, I seriously doubt if this kind of action can achieve meaningful political change - but it is a test of anarchist street action. If this, and not the organised trades unions and big numbers of peaceful demonstrators, bring down Karamanlis, I would have to think again.
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PostSubject: Re: Greek Fire - Who should pay the price of the Crash ? Greece riots   Sun Dec 14, 2008 6:51 pm

Quote :
The helmetted lads I posted previously are almost certainly police: check the footwear is the usual rule. This would also make me think that provocation was going on.

Now that's a bit of a chilling thought - what is their ultimate aim so ? Unleash the Army against the people ? I've seen incredible footage of riot police being molotov-cocktailed and running away ablaze. It looks like an urban war and only a shade more would push it into that level. If the 'Anarchists' were organised in some way then this could blossom into something else, perhaps reminiscent of the collapse of the Iron Curtain except wiithout the relative peacefulness of that collapse (if I remember right)

But police stirring up the whole thing .. ? Wearing a 'uniform' would be a bit of a giveaway though, wouldn't it ? How did you identify them and are they getting particular media attention (sorry if they are included in those videos but I'll have to watch them later.)
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PostSubject: Re: Greek Fire - Who should pay the price of the Crash ? Greece riots   Sun Dec 14, 2008 8:55 pm

Auditor #9 wrote:
Quote :
The helmetted lads I posted previously are almost certainly police: check the footwear is the usual rule. This would also make me think that provocation was going on.

Now that's a bit of a chilling thought - what is their ultimate aim so ? Unleash the Army against the people ? I've seen incredible footage of riot police being molotov-cocktailed and running away ablaze. It looks like an urban war and only a shade more would push it into that level. If the 'Anarchists' were organised in some way then this could blossom into something else, perhaps reminiscent of the collapse of the Iron Curtain except wiithout the relative peacefulness of that collapse (if I remember right)

But police stirring up the whole thing .. ? Wearing a 'uniform' would be a bit of a giveaway though, wouldn't it ? How did you identify them and are they getting particular media attention (sorry if they are included in those videos but I'll have to watch them later.)

There seems to be huge unrest and the media is focused mainly a few burning cars. The strikes, which are probably more threatening, have been ignored. I think if there was deliberate provocation things have gone beyond anything anticipated. Police are often not very subtle when they get involved in street marches. Regulation footwear is rarely changed. The aim can be to demonise and isolate the protestors and to justify heavy handed policing. I think another "silver helmet" man is to be seen at about 0:50 of the video. So not student/anarchist style.
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PostSubject: Re: Greek Fire - Who should pay the price of the Crash ? Greece riots   Sun Dec 14, 2008 9:11 pm

If this were alot of countries in an ongoing riot like this someone would have died by now*. Heck several people died when the November sales started this year in America. I don't know whether that is down to good policing, an orderly riot or more likely a combination of the two it is certainly down to something and it is worthy of mention.


*I'm excluding the death of a teenager which sparked the riots.
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PostSubject: Re: Greek Fire - Who should pay the price of the Crash ? Greece riots   Sun Dec 14, 2008 9:40 pm

johnfás wrote:
If this were alot of countries in an ongoing riot like this someone would have died by now*. Heck several people died when the November sales started this year in America. I don't know whether that is down to good policing, an orderly riot or more likely a combination of the two it is certainly down to something and it is worthy of mention.


*I'm excluding the death of a teenager which sparked the riots.

Interesting point johnfás. A number of reports I've heard and read mention the police "backing off" in the riots. One explanation is that there is so much anger that anything more aggressive would spark off an even more massive reaction. Another is that the police aren't that bothered about a few thousand young people letting off steam with rocks and oranges, and a some buildings mainly in the student area being burnt out. Maybe they think it will play itself out. They have killed over 100 people in the last decade or so, so it can't be a question of their kindly dispositions.
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PostSubject: Re: Greek Fire - Who should pay the price of the Crash ? Greece riots   Sun Dec 14, 2008 10:37 pm

Take off the tin foil hat Cactus. Now you are saying the cops are burning the cops.

Greek cops are different, they are non-flaminable so no deaths
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PostSubject: Re: Greek Fire - Who should pay the price of the Crash ? Greece riots   Sun Dec 14, 2008 10:43 pm

youngdan wrote:
Take off the tin foil hat Cactus. Now you are saying the cops are burning the cops.

Greek cops are different, they are non-flaminable so no deaths

If you look carefully at the photos, you will see its the cops who are wearing the tin foil hats.
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PostSubject: Re: Greek Fire - Who should pay the price of the Crash ? Greece riots   Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:37 am



Quote :
ATHENS — Student protesters evaded security guards at the Acropolis on Wednesday and unfurled two giant pink banners over a wall near the Parthenon to rally support for continued demonstrations against the government.
NYT

Quote :
One of the banners proclaimed “Resistance” in Greek, English, Spanish and German, and the other called for mass demonstrations across Europe on Thursday. The police in Greece were already bracing for more protests. The stunt was the second in two days. On Tuesday, another group of young protesters stormed into the state NET television network and interrupted an afternoon newscast that featured a speech by Prime Minister Kostas Karamanlis on the violent protests.
NYT

Is this going to start spreading through all Europe and is it an organised effort ?
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PostSubject: Re: Greek Fire - Who should pay the price of the Crash ? Greece riots   Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:49 am

Quote :
Is this going to start spreading through all Europe and is it an organised effort ?
That is a very important question. I have a feeling that Europe is on a cliff edge at the moment in terms of public order. If the protests in Greece are part of a pan-European organised effort, who is organising it? If not, how long before there is one?

I would be very uneasy about who is gearing up to fly the flag for disgruntled people in Europe. Think SWP on a large scale and combine that with covert funding from sources who would be only too delighted to see Europe fall on its face and you've got a recipe for disaster.

Solution? The only obvious one I can think of is to get in there ourselves before they do and start a cohesive and coherent campaign to avert the civil unrest that is coming down the tracks to Europe like a steam train with no brakes.
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PostSubject: Re: Greek Fire - Who should pay the price of the Crash ? Greece riots   Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:03 am

floatingingalway wrote:
Think SWP on a large scale and combine that with covert funding from sources who would be only too delighted to see Europe fall on its face and you've got a recipe for disaster.

Solution? The only obvious one I can think of is to get in there ourselves before they do and start a cohesive and coherent campaign to avert the civil unrest that is coming down the tracks to Europe like a steam train with no brakes.

Ourselves ? Do you mean the thirty something unemployed aspiring or middle class ? Or is that for Libertas who are also swooping into a vacuum, perhaps. The yeats poem came to mind as I was reading your post

Quote :
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Surely some revelation is at hand;

,,

A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The Second Coming

There's some vacuum there though isn't there - there's bound to be. A lot of educated people out there now and we're not being engaged properly I think. It's bound to happen as society progresses and education and information advances. More and more people will have less and less input. The old feeling of helplessness is good to stir people up.
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PostSubject: Re: Greek Fire - Who should pay the price of the Crash ? Greece riots   Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:11 am

I wouldn't be a fan of Libertas so I suppose I do mean the
Quote :
thirty something unemployed aspiring or middle class.
Is it up to us to be engaged properly? It is not only the students in Greece who are feeling disenfranchised.
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