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 Poznan Climate Talks - Ireland Looking to Reduce EU Renewables Target - Friends of the Earth Protest

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PostSubject: Poznan Climate Talks - Ireland Looking to Reduce EU Renewables Target - Friends of the Earth Protest   Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:21 pm

http://www.foe.ie/news/2008/12/01/government-in-denial-as-climate-talks-reach-critical-stage/


From the Friends of the Earth Website
Government in denial as climate talks reach critical stage
1 Dec 2008

Quote :
As a new round of UN talks on climate change open today in Poznan, Poland, Friends of the Earth has accused the Government of being in denial about Ireland's responsibility to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. They say Ireland is trying dragging back EU negotiations that will help determine whether a global deal to contain climate change can be agreed in time.

Friends of the Earth Director, Oisin Coghlan, said "10 years ago ministers in this Government signed up to to our Kyoto target, then completely failed to stick to it. So this time around the plan seems to be 'commit to as little as possible'. Either the Government is in denial about the threat climate change poses or indifferent to the fate of those who will be worst affected"

The Government's key positions indicate they are trying to dodge Ireland's responsibility and are indifferent to the global consequences:

The EU wants to offer to cut emissions by 30% by 2020 in the UN talks, but in internal EU negotiations Ireland is refusing to commit to cuts of more than 20% even if there is a new global deal. The European Parliament wants 50% of the revenues from selling emissions permits to industry to be earmarked for helping developing countries adapt to climate change and reduce their own emissions. Ireland is absolutely opposed to this. A year ago the Government promised a further Oireachtas debate on a climate change bill that would put our emissions targets into law. Now it's refusing to schedule that debate.

Oisin Coghlan commented: "So much for our reputation as a champion of the developing world. The poorest people on the planet are being hit first and worst by climate change. Yet Ireland is refusing to do its fair share to stop it running out of control and refusing to support efforts to help developing countries cope with the consequences"

"There's nothing special about our cars, there's nothing sacred about our cows. We have to face up to the responsibility of cutting our pollution which is now 25% higher than it was in 1990. The Government appears to be adopting a position of 'Irish exceptionalism' which is simply unsustainable, environmentally and morally".

Minister for the Environment, John Gormley, heads to Brussels for three days of EU negotiations on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday, before heading to Poland for the UN talks next week. Taoiseach Brian Cowen will be involved in efforts to finalise the EU negotiations at the EU Summit on 11 and 12 December.

Friends of the Earth Policy Officer, Molly Walsh, arrives in Poznan today, Monday, having travelled from Dublin by boat, train and bus to avoid the greenhouse gas emissions associated with flying. Attending the UN talks as and NGO observer on the official Irish delegation, she will be blogging at www.foe.ie/blog/ from Tuesday.

At this stage, is the Green presence in Government pure Greenwash?
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PostSubject: Re: Poznan Climate Talks - Ireland Looking to Reduce EU Renewables Target - Friends of the Earth Protest   Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:28 pm

The Green Party mean well but their problem is that they, or at least their TDs, are politically inept. They may have good intentions but there is not one shrewd operator in their Parliamentary Party, save possibly for Dan Boyle who is a Senator. I would imagine they get walked all over in Government which is a sorry state of affairs for a party which is increasingly holding the balance of power in that Government.
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PostSubject: Re: Poznan Climate Talks - Ireland Looking to Reduce EU Renewables Target - Friends of the Earth Protest   Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:32 pm

johnfás wrote:
The Green Party mean well but their problem is that they, or at least their TDs, are politically inept. They may have good intentions but there is not one shrewd operator in their Parliamentary Party, save possibly for Dan Boyle who is a Senator. I would imagine they get walked all over in Government which is a sorry state of affairs for a party which is increasingly holding the balance of power in that Government.

I just found this:

Quote :
Minister for Environment, John Gormley T.D. has announced a revised ambitious target for renewable penetration in the electricity sector. The new target of 40% is a significant increase from the previous goal of 33% and exceeds considerably both current EU targets of 20% and the UK's current target of 15%.

The Minister said: "One of the most effective ways of reducing our national greenhouse gas emissions is to generate as much electricity as possible from renewable sources rather than from fossil fuels. The previous Government adopted a target that 33% of electricity consumed would be from renewable sources by 2020. Today I can confirm that the Government has now agreed, on the recommendation of my colleague, the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Eamon Ryan, T.D. to increase this target to 40%. The target is underpinned by analysis conducted in the recent All Island Grid Study which found that a 40% penetration is technically feasible, subject to upgrading our electricity grid and ensuring the development of flexible generating plant on the electricity system."

The Minister also stated that Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) statistics showed a reduction in greenhouse gas emissions of more than 1% last year. The net reduction can be attributed to reductions in emissions in the energy sector and afforestation"

The Greens here are trying to put across that Ireland is leading the way on reduction of emissions. So far, the only thing that is going to bring about a substantial drop in emissions here is the slump. I've been writing to the Department for weeks looking for details of how they proposed to reach 33% renewable electricity. No answers.
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PostSubject: Re: Poznan Climate Talks - Ireland Looking to Reduce EU Renewables Target - Friends of the Earth Protest   Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:06 pm

johnfás wrote:
The Green Party mean well but their problem is that they, or at least their TDs, are politically inept. They may have good intentions but there is not one shrewd operator in their Parliamentary Party, save possibly for Dan Boyle who is a Senator. I would imagine they get walked all over in Government which is a sorry state of affairs for a party which is increasingly holding the balance of power in that Government.

They do need to pull the finger out on this. This is one thing the Greens can't sign up for.
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PostSubject: Re: Poznan Climate Talks - Ireland Looking to Reduce EU Renewables Target - Friends of the Earth Protest   Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:36 pm

ibis wrote:
johnfás wrote:
The Green Party mean well but their problem is that they, or at least their TDs, are politically inept. They may have good intentions but there is not one shrewd operator in their Parliamentary Party, save possibly for Dan Boyle who is a Senator. I would imagine they get walked all over in Government which is a sorry state of affairs for a party which is increasingly holding the balance of power in that Government.

They do need to pull the finger out on this. This is one thing the Greens can't sign up for.

What do you think is going on with this Ibis?
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PostSubject: Re: Poznan Climate Talks - Ireland Looking to Reduce EU Renewables Target - Friends of the Earth Protest   Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:28 pm

"We have to face up to the responsibility of cutting our pollution which is now 25% higher than it was in 1990. The Government appears to be adopting a position of 'Irish exceptionalism' which is simply unsustainable, environmentally and morally".
We've had a 25% increase in population since 1990. How are the other countries in Europe with no population increase doing since 1990?

"there's nothing sacred about our cows"
At a time when self sufficiency in food could become more important than ever, it might well be that our cows are indeed sacred.
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PostSubject: Re: Poznan Climate Talks - Ireland Looking to Reduce EU Renewables Target - Friends of the Earth Protest   Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:56 pm

tonys wrote:
"We have to face up to the responsibility of cutting our pollution which is now 25% higher than it was in 1990. The Government appears to be adopting a position of 'Irish exceptionalism' which is simply unsustainable, environmentally and morally".
We've had a 25% increase in population since 1990. How are the other countries in Europe with no population increase doing since 1990?

"there's nothing sacred about our cows"
At a time when self sufficiency in food could become more important than ever, it might well be that our cows are indeed sacred.

Remind me, tonys - you don't accept that anthropogenic climate change is happening anyway, if memory serves?

[EDIT]Apologies to tonys - my memory is at fault here.[/EDIT]


Last edited by ibis on Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Poznan Climate Talks - Ireland Looking to Reduce EU Renewables Target - Friends of the Earth Protest   Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:03 pm

ibis wrote:
tonys wrote:
"We have to face up to the responsibility of cutting our pollution which is now 25% higher than it was in 1990. The Government appears to be adopting a position of 'Irish exceptionalism' which is simply unsustainable, environmentally and morally".
We've had a 25% increase in population since 1990. How are the other countries in Europe with no population increase doing since 1990?

"there's nothing sacred about our cows"
At a time when self sufficiency in food could become more important than ever, it might well be that our cows are indeed sacred.

Remind me, tonys - you don't accept that anthropogenic climate change is happening anyway, if memory serves?
Memory doesn't, nor does putting people in little boxes.
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PostSubject: Re: Poznan Climate Talks - Ireland Looking to Reduce EU Renewables Target - Friends of the Earth Protest   Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:04 pm

cactus flower wrote:
ibis wrote:
johnfás wrote:
The Green Party mean well but their problem is that they, or at least their TDs, are politically inept. They may have good intentions but there is not one shrewd operator in their Parliamentary Party, save possibly for Dan Boyle who is a Senator. I would imagine they get walked all over in Government which is a sorry state of affairs for a party which is increasingly holding the balance of power in that Government.

They do need to pull the finger out on this. This is one thing the Greens can't sign up for.

What do you think is going on with this Ibis?

That I'm not sure about. I suspect (and now consider more likely since tonys' post) that FF are unwilling to play ball on this one. Bear in mind that FF don't really accept climate change is a real issue, and indeed that their ability to prioritise anything long-term over the short-term is virtually non-existent. This is neither the first nor last time that 'collective Cabinet reponsibility' sees a Green minister fronting a reactionary FF policy.
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PostSubject: Re: Poznan Climate Talks - Ireland Looking to Reduce EU Renewables Target - Friends of the Earth Protest   Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:05 pm

tonys wrote:
ibis wrote:
tonys wrote:
"We have to face up to the responsibility of cutting our pollution which is now 25% higher than it was in 1990. The Government appears to be adopting a position of 'Irish exceptionalism' which is simply unsustainable, environmentally and morally".
We've had a 25% increase in population since 1990. How are the other countries in Europe with no population increase doing since 1990?

"there's nothing sacred about our cows"
At a time when self sufficiency in food could become more important than ever, it might well be that our cows are indeed sacred.

Remind me, tonys - you don't accept that anthropogenic climate change is happening anyway, if memory serves?
Memory doesn't, nor does putting people in little boxes.

Apologies - I sounded sarky, but as far as I recall, you have argued it's not real. Are you saying I'm entirely wrong about that? I'm open to any such correction, obviously, since you know you much better than I do!
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PostSubject: Re: Poznan Climate Talks - Ireland Looking to Reduce EU Renewables Target - Friends of the Earth Protest   Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:12 pm

ibis wrote:
tonys wrote:
ibis wrote:
tonys wrote:
"We have to face up to the responsibility of cutting our pollution which is now 25% higher than it was in 1990. The Government appears to be adopting a position of 'Irish exceptionalism' which is simply unsustainable, environmentally and morally".
We've had a 25% increase in population since 1990. How are the other countries in Europe with no population increase doing since 1990?

"there's nothing sacred about our cows"
At a time when self sufficiency in food could become more important than ever, it might well be that our cows are indeed sacred.

Remind me, tonys - you don't accept that anthropogenic climate change is happening anyway, if memory serves?
Memory doesn't, nor does putting people in little boxes.

Apologies - I sounded sarky, but as far as I recall, you have argued it's not real. Are you saying I'm entirely wrong about that? I'm open to any such correction, obviously, since you know you much better than I do!
If my memory serves, you are entirely wrong on that.
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PostSubject: Re: Poznan Climate Talks - Ireland Looking to Reduce EU Renewables Target - Friends of the Earth Protest   Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:22 pm

tonys wrote:
ibis wrote:
tonys wrote:
ibis wrote:
tonys wrote:
"We have to face up to the responsibility of cutting our pollution which is now 25% higher than it was in 1990. The Government appears to be adopting a position of 'Irish exceptionalism' which is simply unsustainable, environmentally and morally".
We've had a 25% increase in population since 1990. How are the other countries in Europe with no population increase doing since 1990?

"there's nothing sacred about our cows"
At a time when self sufficiency in food could become more important than ever, it might well be that our cows are indeed sacred.

Remind me, tonys - you don't accept that anthropogenic climate change is happening anyway, if memory serves?
Memory doesn't, nor does putting people in little boxes.

Apologies - I sounded sarky, but as far as I recall, you have argued it's not real. Are you saying I'm entirely wrong about that? I'm open to any such correction, obviously, since you know you much better than I do!
If my memory serves, you are entirely wrong on that.

Well, then, I stand corrected.
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PostSubject: Re: Poznan Climate Talks - Ireland Looking to Reduce EU Renewables Target - Friends of the Earth Protest   Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:33 pm

ibis wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
ibis wrote:
johnfás wrote:
The Green Party mean well but their problem is that they, or at least their TDs, are politically inept. They may have good intentions but there is not one shrewd operator in their Parliamentary Party, save possibly for Dan Boyle who is a Senator. I would imagine they get walked all over in Government which is a sorry state of affairs for a party which is increasingly holding the balance of power in that Government.

They do need to pull the finger out on this. This is one thing the Greens can't sign up for.

What do you think is going on with this Ibis?

That I'm not sure about. I suspect (and now consider more likely since tonys' post) that FF are unwilling to play ball on this one. Bear in mind that FF don't really accept climate change is a real issue, and indeed that their ability to prioritise anything long-term over the short-term is virtually non-existent. This is neither the first nor last time that 'collective Cabinet reponsibility' sees a Green minister fronting a reactionary FF policy.

Given that the country has been bankrupted over the last five years, there is little money for anything, but energy self sufficiency would be popular goal. Redirection of some of what there is, or can be borrowed, into renewables and upgrading the building stock is a no-brainer. What's not to like?

Cows are a trickier matter, granted.

On the Greens - surely this is not just another "reactionary FF policy" - it goes to the heart of what the Greens are supposedly in government for, moreso than the social policies?
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PostSubject: Re: Poznan Climate Talks - Ireland Looking to Reduce EU Renewables Target - Friends of the Earth Protest   Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:48 pm

cactus flower wrote:
ibis wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
ibis wrote:
johnfás wrote:
The Green Party mean well but their problem is that they, or at least their TDs, are politically inept. They may have good intentions but there is not one shrewd operator in their Parliamentary Party, save possibly for Dan Boyle who is a Senator. I would imagine they get walked all over in Government which is a sorry state of affairs for a party which is increasingly holding the balance of power in that Government.

They do need to pull the finger out on this. This is one thing the Greens can't sign up for.

What do you think is going on with this Ibis?

That I'm not sure about. I suspect (and now consider more likely since tonys' post) that FF are unwilling to play ball on this one. Bear in mind that FF don't really accept climate change is a real issue, and indeed that their ability to prioritise anything long-term over the short-term is virtually non-existent. This is neither the first nor last time that 'collective Cabinet reponsibility' sees a Green minister fronting a reactionary FF policy.

Given that the country has been bankrupted over the last five years, there is little money for anything, but energy self sufficiency would be popular goal. Redirection of some of what there is, or can be borrowed, into renewables and upgrading the building stock is a no-brainer. What's not to like?

Cows are a trickier matter, granted.

On the Greens - surely this is not just another "reactionary FF policy" - it goes to the heart of what the Greens are supposedly in government for, moreso than the social policies?

Exactly, what's not to like ? Farmers get paid handsomely for having turbines on their land, there is an economic benefit in that less fuel gets imported, it's populist to see Govt. pushing nice wave machines that make use of our local resources ..

Maybe the Grid is the problem - we'd need power stations that are capable of responding to alternative sources of electricity in the grid - the wind goes up, the gas turns down (or the nuclear)

Perhaps the ESB is like Eircom - they have a monopoly, they won't change come hell or high water because the problem isn't big enough that we have to change nor so small that changing to an alternative might earn more money ...
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PostSubject: Re: Poznan Climate Talks - Ireland Looking to Reduce EU Renewables Target - Friends of the Earth Protest   Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:49 pm

cactus flower wrote:
ibis wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
ibis wrote:
johnfás wrote:
The Green Party mean well but their problem is that they, or at least their TDs, are politically inept. They may have good intentions but there is not one shrewd operator in their Parliamentary Party, save possibly for Dan Boyle who is a Senator. I would imagine they get walked all over in Government which is a sorry state of affairs for a party which is increasingly holding the balance of power in that Government.

They do need to pull the finger out on this. This is one thing the Greens can't sign up for.

What do you think is going on with this Ibis?

That I'm not sure about. I suspect (and now consider more likely since tonys' post) that FF are unwilling to play ball on this one. Bear in mind that FF don't really accept climate change is a real issue, and indeed that their ability to prioritise anything long-term over the short-term is virtually non-existent. This is neither the first nor last time that 'collective Cabinet reponsibility' sees a Green minister fronting a reactionary FF policy.

Given that the country has been bankrupted over the last five years, there is little money for anything, but energy self sufficiency would be popular goal. Redirection of some of what there is, or can be borrowed, into renewables and upgrading the building stock is a no-brainer. What's not to like?

Cows are a trickier matter, granted.

On the Greens - surely this is not just another "reactionary FF policy" - it goes to the heart of what the Greens are supposedly in government for, moreso than the social policies?

If the Irish position derails the EU one, then it's a deal-breaker.
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PostSubject: Re: Poznan Climate Talks - Ireland Looking to Reduce EU Renewables Target - Friends of the Earth Protest   Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:50 pm

Ibis said
Quote :
If the Irish position derails the EU one, then it's a deal-breaker.

Is there any sign that the Greens think that?
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PostSubject: Re: Poznan Climate Talks - Ireland Looking to Reduce EU Renewables Target - Friends of the Earth Protest   Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:15 pm

cactus flower wrote:
Ibis said
Quote :
If the Irish position derails the EU one, then it's a deal-breaker.

Is there any sign that the Greens think that?

No idea! I only vote for them...
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PostSubject: Re: Poznan Climate Talks - Ireland Looking to Reduce EU Renewables Target - Friends of the Earth Protest   Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:26 pm

ibis wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
Ibis said
Quote :
If the Irish position derails the EU one, then it's a deal-breaker.

Is there any sign that the Greens think that?

No idea! I only vote for them...

I'm fast running out of people to vote for Mad
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PostSubject: Re: Poznan Climate Talks - Ireland Looking to Reduce EU Renewables Target - Friends of the Earth Protest   Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:07 pm

Some news from Poznan - some money will be released to help poorer countries cope with climate change. The fund is a quarter of what the pig contamination incident will cost Ireland.

Quote :
12/12/2008 - 14:46:31
Delegates at a UN climate conference in Poznan, Poland, said they have agreed to unblock millions of euro to help poor countries cope with the effects of climate change.

The agreement was one of the main achievements of negotiators who hope to agree on a new climate change treaty by next December.

Mozaharul Alam of Bangladesh said government ministers have recognised the legal right to operate a climate change fund that now has about $60m (€44.7m).

Until now, the fund could not operate because its board had no right to sign contracts.

Mr Alam said today it could still take up to a year before money is distributed to poor nations.
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PostSubject: Re: Poznan Climate Talks - Ireland Looking to Reduce EU Renewables Target - Friends of the Earth Protest   Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:01 pm

http://copportal1.man.poznan.pl/Live.aspx?EventID=38&Lang=english

Live streaming from the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change at Poznan

Darn it, John Gormely was on yesterday.

This is our fourth report to the UN Framework Convention: http://unfccc.int/resource/docs/natc/irenc4.pdf

and this is the in-depth UN review of our third report: http://unfccc.int/resource/docs/idr/irl03.pdf

Link to our Greenhouse Gas Database: http://coe.epa.ie/ghg
and annual Irish Greenhouse Gas status report to 2005 http://unfccc.int/resource/docs/2007/asr/irl.pdf
Review of the 2006 data report http://unfccc.int/resource/docs/2007/arr/irl.pdf

The home page of the website for Poznan - very comprehensive site.

http://unfccc.int/meetings/cop_14/items/4481.php
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PostSubject: Re: Poznan Climate Talks - Ireland Looking to Reduce EU Renewables Target - Friends of the Earth Protest   Fri Dec 12, 2008 8:43 pm

cactus flower wrote:
Oisin Coughlan (FoE) said "The EU wants to offer to cut emissions by 30% by 2020 in the UN talks, but in internal EU negotiations Ireland is refusing to commit to cuts of more than 20% even if there is a new global deal."
That is the opposite of what is reported in the IT today.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/1212/breaking36.htm
Quote :
Mr Gormley said: “These targets are realistic, achievable, and
essential. Now, we must move forward towards a more ambitious 30 per
cent reduction. The EU is ready. I call on all our developed country
partners to join us and come forward with their proposals for emissions
reductions.”


Last edited by eoinmn on Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Poznan Climate Talks - Ireland Looking to Reduce EU Renewables Target - Friends of the Earth Protest   Fri Dec 12, 2008 8:46 pm

[quote="eoinmn"]
cactus flower wrote:
The EU wants to offer to cut emissions by 30% by 2020 in the UN talks, but in internal EU negotiations Ireland is refusing to commit to cuts of more than 20% even if there is a new global deal.
That is the opposite of what is reported in the IT today.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/1212/breaking36.htm
Quote :
Mr Gormley said: “These targets are realistic, achievable, and
essential. Now, we must move forward towards a more ambitious 30 per
cent reduction. The EU is ready. I call on all our developed country
partners to join us and come forward with their proposals for emissions
reductions.”
[/quote

Í'm delighted he said that.
That would more accurately read "cactus flower quoted" - I think we need Oisin Coughlan to come and answer this.

I still haven't had an answer to my emailed question about how we were going to achieve that, given our very unexciting performance so far. I'll have to find a T.D. to ask a Parliamentary Question.
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PostSubject: Re: Poznan Climate Talks - Ireland Looking to Reduce EU Renewables Target - Friends of the Earth Protest   Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:05 pm

This is an RTE report in which John Gormley emphasises the 30% target but mentions something about agriculture...

The FOI say that in they hear that the Irish government in Brussels are hanging back from moving from a 20% to a 30% target. [right]


http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1201/1news_av.html?2456701,null,230
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PostSubject: Re: Poznan Climate Talks - Ireland Looking to Reduce EU Renewables Target - Friends of the Earth Protest   Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:12 pm

I mentioned this on the P.ie website. The 30% went out the window last year. What they are currently debating is
1. Do we agree on the 20%:2020
2. EXCEPTIONS

The exceptions are now in place whereby heav industries will be allowed to polute without having to enter the CO2 trading scheme. To what extent I do not know. So in the space of 2 years we have gone from 30:2020 to <15:2020. It is an absolute disaster.
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PostSubject: Re: Poznan Climate Talks - Ireland Looking to Reduce EU Renewables Target - Friends of the Earth Protest   Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:02 pm

riven wrote:
I mentioned this on the P.ie website. The 30% went out the window last year. What they are currently debating is
1. Do we agree on the 20%:2020
2. EXCEPTIONS

The exceptions are now in place whereby heav industries will be allowed to polute without having to enter the CO2 trading scheme. To what extent I do not know. So in the space of 2 years we have gone from 30:2020 to <15:2020. It is an absolute disaster.

So what is this 30% the Greens keep banging on about?

And do you know riven if they have a plan how to achieve even the 20% ?

Our only hope is the recession. They say the salmon came back up the Thames when Thatcher shut down all London's industry.
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