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 The Second Lisbon Referendum - Date Set for May?

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PostSubject: Re: The Second Lisbon Referendum - Date Set for May?   Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:43 am

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:
youngdan wrote:
I find this love for Europe weird
but I am willing to learn

Is it just about money. If anyone has another reason that does not come to mind can they mention it.

It's to do with the fact that under the EU we have enjoyed the longest stretch of peace time in Europe since the time of Pax Romana. It's also the cultural links which have been only possible as part of a community of European states. The EU is also essential for the tackling of transnational issues like terrorism, crime, climate change and poverty. Europe is also about protecting human rights, civil liberties, working conditions and equal standards. The money from EU funds and from the freedom of markets in Europe are great but Europe is about so much more than that.

Plus, if you're old enough to remember a Europe of borders and regulations, with an Iron Curtain down the middle of it and military/religious rule in the peripheries, the current EU is an amazing change. I regret some of the local differences that have been smoothed away, but the TV did for them more than anything.
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PostSubject: Re: The Second Lisbon Referendum - Date Set for May?   Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:43 am

ibis wrote:


He's currently in a tempestuous love affair with Libertas, and the object of his affections cannot be even slightly slighted without provoking his jealous rage. I've done it myself, but at least it was over a woman rather than a bald pink Galwegian.

Isn't that a bit unfair ibis? Declan Ganley hardly equals Libertas and cookie's decision to join Libertas must have far more reasons than Declan Ganley.

I'm not sure about this 1 member state, 1 commissioner deal. Wouldn't it be better to have a proper commissionership two thirds of the time than a glorified paper pusher all of the time? It strikes me as a guarantee which misses the point. I'd be more concerned about fiscal sovereignty than whether we had a commissioner since it has much more palpable effect on our lives.
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PostSubject: Re: The Second Lisbon Referendum - Date Set for May?   Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:45 am

ibis wrote:


Plus, if you're old enough to remember a Europe of borders and regulations, with an Iron Curtain down the middle of it and military/religious rule in the peripheries, the current EU is an amazing change. I regret some of the local differences that have been smoothed away, but the TV did for them more than anything.

Oh yes, the dreaded TV! Smile I'm not a couch potato myself but it's something else not to have it since 1979. I'd have one for Olympics and elections and Eurovision finals at least.
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PostSubject: Re: The Second Lisbon Referendum - Date Set for May?   Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:48 am

X-factor finals tomorrow night, Ard-Taoiseach Wink
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PostSubject: Re: The Second Lisbon Referendum - Date Set for May?   Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:53 am

cactus flower wrote:
X-factor finals tomorrow night, Ard-Taoiseach Wink

I know. Like, OMG! I'll be watching it in my pjs with all the girls. It'll be fab!
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PostSubject: Re: The Second Lisbon Referendum - Date Set for May?   Sat Dec 13, 2008 2:00 am

Lads, ye are way off topic now. Evil or Very Mad

But the DUP and Sinn Fein leadership have called for everyone in NI to vote for Eoin Quigg. My eldest reckons it's cheating.
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PostSubject: Re: The Second Lisbon Referendum - Date Set for May?   Sat Dec 13, 2008 2:03 am

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:
Lads, ye are way off topic now. Evil or Very Mad

But the DUP and Sinn Fein leadership have called for everyone in NI to vote for Eoin Quigg. My eldest reckons it's cheating.

If what we're saying is off topic, then how does northern Irish politics relate to the Lisbon referendum eh?
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PostSubject: Re: The Second Lisbon Referendum - Date Set for May?   Sat Dec 13, 2008 2:11 am

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:
EvotingMachine0197 wrote:
Lads, ye are way off topic now. Evil or Very Mad

But the DUP and Sinn Fein leadership have called for everyone in NI to vote for Eoin Quigg. My eldest reckons it's cheating.

If what we're saying is off topic, then how does northern Irish politics relate to the Lisbon referendum eh?

Shush you . It just does.
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PostSubject: Re: The Second Lisbon Referendum - Date Set for May?   Sat Dec 13, 2008 2:11 am

ibis wrote:
Ard-Taoiseach wrote:
youngdan wrote:
I find this love for Europe weird
but I am willing to learn

Is it just about money. If anyone has another reason that does not come to mind can they mention it.

It's to do with the fact that under the EU we have enjoyed the longest stretch of peace time in Europe since the time of Pax Romana. It's also the cultural links which have been only possible as part of a community of European states. The EU is also essential for the tackling of transnational issues like terrorism, crime, climate change and poverty. Europe is also about protecting human rights, civil liberties, working conditions and equal standards. The money from EU funds and from the freedom of markets in Europe are great but Europe is about so much more than that.

Plus, if you're old enough to remember a Europe of borders and regulations, with an Iron Curtain down the middle of it and military/religious rule in the peripheries, the current EU is an amazing change. I regret some of the local differences that have been smoothed away, but the TV did for them more than anything.

One thing is for sure. When its long gone, the people of the future will look back on those as halcyon days.
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PostSubject: Re: The Second Lisbon Referendum - Date Set for May?   Sat Dec 13, 2008 2:14 am

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:
Ard-Taoiseach wrote:
EvotingMachine0197 wrote:
Lads, ye are way off topic now. Evil or Very Mad

But the DUP and Sinn Fein leadership have called for everyone in NI to vote for Eoin Quigg. My eldest reckons it's cheating.

If what we're saying is off topic, then how does northern Irish politics relate to the Lisbon referendum eh?

Shush you . It just does.

I'm not sure about that.
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PostSubject: Re: The Second Lisbon Referendum - Date Set for May?   Sat Dec 13, 2008 2:24 am

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:
EvotingMachine0197 wrote:
Ard-Taoiseach wrote:
EvotingMachine0197 wrote:
Lads, ye are way off topic now. Evil or Very Mad

But the DUP and Sinn Fein leadership have called for everyone in NI to vote for Eoin Quigg. My eldest reckons it's cheating.

If what we're saying is off topic, then how does northern Irish politics relate to the Lisbon referendum eh?

Shush you . It just does.

I'm not sure about that.

Because telling people how to vote in X-Factor gets them used to being told how to vote in an election ?

That's the best I could come up with. Razz
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PostSubject: Re: The Second Lisbon Referendum - Date Set for May?   Sat Dec 13, 2008 3:00 am

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:
ibis wrote:


He's currently in a tempestuous love affair with Libertas, and the object of his affections cannot be even slightly slighted without provoking his jealous rage. I've done it myself, but at least it was over a woman rather than a bald pink Galwegian.

Isn't that a bit unfair ibis? Declan Ganley hardly equals Libertas and cookie's decision to join Libertas must have far more reasons than Declan Ganley.

I should hope it is unfair - that's what I was aiming for! No, you're right, Cookie's decision to join Libertas presumably reflects the fact that he feels Libertas represents him politically, and is in itself a bold and innovative departure from mainstream politics. Unfortunately, that's how factual feels about SF.

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:
I'm not sure about this 1 member state, 1 commissioner deal. Wouldn't it be better to have a proper commissionership two thirds of the time than a glorified paper pusher all of the time? It strikes me as a guarantee which misses the point. I'd be more concerned about fiscal sovereignty than whether we had a commissioner since it has much more palpable effect on our lives.

It is an utterly pointless concession, and probably counter-productive, but if people are going to campaign on the basis of irrelevancies, then the irrelevancies will end up being addressed, pointless as that may seem.

To be fair, though, there was always a question over whether ditching the "national commissioner" would lead to a loss of legitimacy. I think Wallstrom has said as much publicly.
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PostSubject: Re: The Second Lisbon Referendum - Date Set for May?   Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:24 pm

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:
Well from what I gleaned from Prime Time, the Gov are clearly trying to get some binding concessions. This is what SF wanted. Renegotiation. Now they're getting it and still moaning ...
`

I think its renegotiation lite. The Grand Panjandrum is still working away on the assumption of a Yes

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/2113401/European-Treaty-Irish-plan-to-get-around-'no'-vote.html
Quote :
In recent weeks, Irish officials have held secret talks to implement the Lisbon Treaty regardless of any referendum on the text.

During talks to create an EU diplomatic corps on May 7 and May 13, Irish diplomats presented a position on the composition of the European External Action Service and role of the EU’s new “foreign minister”.

Secret minutes seen by The Daily Telegraph show that Ireland’s EU ambassador, Bobby McDonagh, pleaded with his colleagues to keep the talks and Dublin’s position confidential. “[We] have to remain cautious in presenting these issues [referendum]!,” the minutes record
This was a report last June. True, or British media disinformation ?
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PostSubject: Re: The Second Lisbon Referendum - Date Set for May?   Sun Dec 14, 2008 12:27 am

cactus flower wrote:
EvotingMachine0197 wrote:
Well from what I gleaned from Prime Time, the Gov are clearly trying to get some binding concessions. This is what SF wanted. Renegotiation. Now they're getting it and still moaning ...
`

I think its renegotiation lite. The Grand Panjandrum is still working away on the assumption of a Yes

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/2113401/European-Treaty-Irish-plan-to-get-around-'no'-vote.html
Quote :
In recent weeks, Irish officials have held secret talks to implement the Lisbon Treaty regardless of any referendum on the text.

During talks to create an EU diplomatic corps on May 7 and May 13, Irish diplomats presented a position on the composition of the European External Action Service and role of the EU’s new “foreign minister”.

Secret minutes seen by The Daily Telegraph show that Ireland’s EU ambassador, Bobby McDonagh, pleaded with his colleagues to keep the talks and Dublin’s position confidential. “[We] have to remain cautious in presenting these issues [referendum]!,” the minutes record
This was a report last June. True, or British media disinformation ?

Well, are they putting forward a second referendum, or the "secret plan"? I'm a little sceptical of these "secret minutes" etc, since I know for a fact that at least one such exciting titbit was prepared by someone very junior, and treated by the eurosceptical as if it had fallen out of the inside pocket of the High Commissioner for Evil Plots.
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PostSubject: Re: The Second Lisbon Referendum - Date Set for May?   Sun Dec 14, 2008 12:35 am

I have no great confidence in the Telegraph, but I would find it unsurprising if the GP and his staff were to have worked away on the assumption that Lisbon would eventually be passed. It might have been considered negligent and risky to have done anything different.

What is sad is the apparent belief that people need to be kept in the dark.
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PostSubject: Re: The Second Lisbon Referendum - Date Set for May?   Sun Dec 14, 2008 12:39 am

cactus flower wrote:
I have no great confidence in the Telegraph, but I would find it unsurprising if the GP and his staff were to have worked away on the assumption that Lisbon would eventually be passed. It might have been considered negligent and risky to have done anything different.

What is sad is the apparent belief that people need to be kept in the dark.

If someone in Europe wrote a position paper saying "this is how the Irish could get around a No vote", and the Irish ambassador said "for feck's sakes lads, keep that quiet", you'd have exactly the Telegraph story above.
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PostSubject: Re: The Second Lisbon Referendum - Date Set for May?   Sun Dec 14, 2008 12:44 am

ibis wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
I have no great confidence in the Telegraph, but I would find it unsurprising if the GP and his staff were to have worked away on the assumption that Lisbon would eventually be passed. It might have been considered negligent and risky to have done anything different.

What is sad is the apparent belief that people need to be kept in the dark.

If someone in Europe wrote a position paper saying "this is how the Irish could get around a No vote", and the Irish ambassador said "for feck's sakes lads, keep that quiet", you'd have exactly the Telegraph story above.

This is what I'm talking about Ibis. The rest of the report I thought looked like rubbish.

Quote :
In recent weeks, Irish officials have held secret talks to implement the Lisbon Treaty regardless of any referendum on the text.

During talks to create an EU diplomatic corps on May 7 and May 13, Irish diplomats presented a position on the composition of the European External Action Service and role of the EU’s new “foreign minister”.

Secret minutes seen by The Daily Telegraph show that Ireland’s EU ambassador, Bobby McDonagh, pleaded with his colleagues to keep the talks and Dublin’s position confidential. “[We] have to remain cautious in presenting these issues [referendum]!,” the minutes record
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PostSubject: Re: The Second Lisbon Referendum - Date Set for May?   Sun Dec 14, 2008 1:19 am

cactus flower wrote:
ibis wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
I have no great confidence in the Telegraph, but I would find it unsurprising if the GP and his staff were to have worked away on the assumption that Lisbon would eventually be passed. It might have been considered negligent and risky to have done anything different.

What is sad is the apparent belief that people need to be kept in the dark.

If someone in Europe wrote a position paper saying "this is how the Irish could get around a No vote", and the Irish ambassador said "for feck's sakes lads, keep that quiet", you'd have exactly the Telegraph story above.

This is what I'm talking about Ibis. The rest of the report I thought looked like rubbish.

Quote :
In recent weeks, Irish officials have held secret talks to implement the Lisbon Treaty regardless of any referendum on the text.

During talks to create an EU diplomatic corps on May 7 and May 13, Irish diplomats presented a position on the composition of the European External Action Service and role of the EU’s new “foreign minister”.

Secret minutes seen by The Daily Telegraph show that Ireland’s EU ambassador, Bobby McDonagh, pleaded with his colleagues to keep the talks and Dublin’s position confidential. “[We] have to remain cautious in presenting these issues [referendum]!,” the minutes record

That bit doesn't even make sense, though. It says that there were secret talks to implement the Lisbon Treaty regardless of any referendum - then starts talking about the composition of the External Action Service - then says Bobby McDonagh wanted "the talks" kept confidential. Which talks?
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PostSubject: Re: The Second Lisbon Referendum - Date Set for May?   Sun Dec 14, 2008 1:32 am

That's the Telegraph for you. I read it as saying that Bobby MDonagh and the lads have been working away on matters of detail pertaining to implementing Lisbon. Diplomat says "We have to remain cautious" shock.

The rest I assumed to be padding.
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PostSubject: Re: The Second Lisbon Referendum - Date Set for May?   Sun Dec 14, 2008 1:35 am

cactus flower wrote:
That's the Telegraph for you. I read it as saying that Bobby MDonagh and the lads have been working away on matters of detail pertaining to implementing Lisbon. Diplomat says "We have to remain cautious" shock.

The rest I assumed to be padding.

Do you? I read it as the sticking together of two unrelated items to create the impression they're one big conspiracy. Quite aside from anything, no secret plan has been implemented. And that, of course, is assuming accurate reportage in the first place...which is also open to doubt.
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PostSubject: Re: The Second Lisbon Referendum - Date Set for May?   Sun Dec 14, 2008 1:45 am

ibis wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
That's the Telegraph for you. I read it as saying that Bobby MDonagh and the lads have been working away on matters of detail pertaining to implementing Lisbon. Diplomat says "We have to remain cautious" shock.

The rest I assumed to be padding.

Do you? I read it as the sticking together of two unrelated items to create the impression they're one big conspiracy. Quite aside from anything, no secret plan has been implemented. And that, of course, is assuming accurate reportage in the first place...which is also open to doubt.

I agree with you on the journalistic agenda. In terms of the content, the story is based on something, and its something involving McDonagh. Do you think that our Permanent Representatives have been sitting on their hands all these months or doing the job that they are paid for?
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PostSubject: Re: The Second Lisbon Referendum - Date Set for May?   Sun Dec 14, 2008 2:02 am

cactus flower wrote:
ibis wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
That's the Telegraph for you. I read it as saying that Bobby MDonagh and the lads have been working away on matters of detail pertaining to implementing Lisbon. Diplomat says "We have to remain cautious" shock.

The rest I assumed to be padding.

Do you? I read it as the sticking together of two unrelated items to create the impression they're one big conspiracy. Quite aside from anything, no secret plan has been implemented. And that, of course, is assuming accurate reportage in the first place...which is also open to doubt.

I agree with you on the journalistic agenda. In terms of the content, the story is based on something, and its something involving McDonagh. Do you think that our Permanent Representatives have been sitting on their hands all these months or doing the job that they are paid for?

I strongly doubt it. I imagine there have been endless meetings, position papers, brainstorming sessions, plámasing, etc. Much of what would have been said would undoubtedly give the eurosceptic press a field day, whether it was the minority opinion of a junior civil servant, a 'possibilities paper' from a think-tank, or whatever.
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PostSubject: Re: The Second Lisbon Referendum - Date Set for May?   Sun Dec 14, 2008 2:08 am

ibis wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
ibis wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
That's the Telegraph for you. I read it as saying that Bobby MDonagh and the lads have been working away on matters of detail pertaining to implementing Lisbon. Diplomat says "We have to remain cautious" shock.

The rest I assumed to be padding.

Do you? I read it as the sticking together of two unrelated items to create the impression they're one big conspiracy. Quite aside from anything, no secret plan has been implemented. And that, of course, is assuming accurate reportage in the first place...which is also open to doubt.

I agree with you on the journalistic agenda. In terms of the content, the story is based on something, and its something involving McDonagh. Do you think that our Permanent Representatives have been sitting on their hands all these months or doing the job that they are paid for?

I strongly doubt it. I imagine there have been endless meetings, position papers, brainstorming sessions, plámasing, etc. Much of what would have been said would undoubtedly give the eurosceptic press a field day, whether it was the minority opinion of a junior civil servant, a 'possibilities paper' from a think-tank, or whatever.

Exactly Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: The Second Lisbon Referendum - Date Set for May?   Sun Dec 14, 2008 2:09 am

cactus flower wrote:
ibis wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
ibis wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
That's the Telegraph for you. I read it as saying that Bobby MDonagh and the lads have been working away on matters of detail pertaining to implementing Lisbon. Diplomat says "We have to remain cautious" shock.

The rest I assumed to be padding.

Do you? I read it as the sticking together of two unrelated items to create the impression they're one big conspiracy. Quite aside from anything, no secret plan has been implemented. And that, of course, is assuming accurate reportage in the first place...which is also open to doubt.

I agree with you on the journalistic agenda. In terms of the content, the story is based on something, and its something involving McDonagh. Do you think that our Permanent Representatives have been sitting on their hands all these months or doing the job that they are paid for?

I strongly doubt it. I imagine there have been endless meetings, position papers, brainstorming sessions, plámasing, etc. Much of what would have been said would undoubtedly give the eurosceptic press a field day, whether it was the minority opinion of a junior civil servant, a 'possibilities paper' from a think-tank, or whatever.

Exactly Very Happy

It's not exactly a 'secret plan', though, now is it? More like a wide-ranging examination of all options.
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PostSubject: Re: The Second Lisbon Referendum - Date Set for May?   Sun Dec 14, 2008 2:14 am

Quote :
It's not exactly a 'secret plan', though, now is it? More like a wide-ranging examination of all options

That was the Telegraph Ibis - I said I thought that was rubbish several posts back.

But not a wide ranging examination of all options, more like provisional arrangements. As I already said, it could be argued that it would have been negligent not to engage in them.
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