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 Breaking News: Obama is the 44th President Elect of the USA

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PostSubject: Re: Breaking News: Obama is the 44th President Elect of the USA   Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:31 pm

Squire wrote:
youngdan wrote:
Time for a classic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqpFm7zAK90

That is a good link and just about sums it up. The problem is the mice accept and expect very low standards. Makes me wonder about the democratic process and universal rights and obligations.

Not much of a post election bounce in the markets. IMO the Democrats have now peaked and it will be decline from here on as the enormity of the problems become apparent. In the last 2 years they could have done a lot more to curb Bush and chose not to and like sheep they overwhelmingly voted for the bail out. They were complicit in what has happened so why expect fundemental change?

Good to see the back of Bush a truely lamentable individual, who should face retribution for what he has done. Good also to see a non white elected, but that should really not be an issue. With regards Obama I hope my assessment of him is wrong, but I have seldom found the characteristics that produce a good used car sales man to belong to the type of person I want to be associated with or believe. His pronouncements leave a severe credibility gap with me, and I truely do not comprehend the belief in him or the adoration.

Have to say I'm with you on that one. I'd have been appalled to see McCain in, would have unhesitatingly voted Obama, and certainly am more hopeful of a positive term this way round - but at the end of the day he's a politician, not the Messiah.

By the way, Audi, that's an extraordinarily offensive video. Would you reconsider posting it, or at least mark it pretty clearly as racist?


Last edited by ibis on Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Breaking News: Obama is the 44th President Elect of the USA   Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:09 pm

Roll on Jan 20. Will we see the patriot acts repealed. Two chances, none and none at all. Will we see the wars over, one chance on this, zero. Will the economy be better, no chance at all on this score.

What we will have will be a donkey talking about global warming and nonsence about Africa.

The good news is that secession is back in fashion and there will be no republicans to blame. The Loons are in power now and look what is happening. About 2 trillion dollars worldwide has been lost since the polls closed.
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PostSubject: Re: Breaking News: Obama is the 44th President Elect of the USA   Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:11 pm

I liked the mouse video.
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PostSubject: Re: Breaking News: Obama is the 44th President Elect of the USA   Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:25 pm

youngdan wrote:
Roll on Jan 20. Will we see the patriot acts repealed. Two chances, none and none at all. Will we see the wars over, one chance on this, zero. Will the economy be better, no chance at all on this score.

What we will have will be a donkey talking about global warming and nonsence about Africa.

The good news is that secession is back in fashion and there will be no republicans to blame. The Loons are in power now and look what is happening. About 2 trillion dollars worldwide has been lost since the polls closed.

Um, yeah, but that's been happening rather a while now.
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PostSubject: Re: Breaking News: Obama is the 44th President Elect of the USA   Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:49 pm

It would now be very easy for the Democrats to repeal the patriot acts.
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PostSubject: Re: Breaking News: Obama is the 44th President Elect of the USA   Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:06 pm

Talk is cheap and the economy is out of the control of politicians to influence unless they actually minded their
own business.

The patriot acts are the yardstick as they could be repealed in 10 minutes. When they are not touched it should be clear to even the most muddled minds that they have been taken for suckers.

What will the fools on P.ie who were crying with joy explain it when Bush is not held to account. It is great. I can't wait for the free health care.
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PostSubject: Re: Breaking News: Obama is the 44th President Elect of the USA   Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:08 am

I agree with Slim Buddha.... also, if he had the cojones to ban the use of tax havens for personal income (income tax avoidance), perhaps we could all raise our taxes on the personal incomes of the wealthy, and repair our balance sheets. The US, alone of all the world economies, is big enough to do this. Would love to wave bye bye to the Caymans, Jersey, Monaco, etc.... Enough of the non-domiciled city financiers who pay less tax than their cleaners. Worldwide, we need their excess incomes to feed the schools and hospitals, not Ascot, Henley, the Hamptons, the Galway races etc

I would also hope that he would have enough sense to leave corpo tax alone, though.... job destruction isn't a good idea at the moment
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PostSubject: Re: Breaking News: Obama is the 44th President Elect of the USA   Mon Nov 10, 2008 7:47 pm

expat girl wrote:
I agree with Slim Buddha.... also, if he had the cojones to ban the use of tax havens for personal income (income tax avoidance), perhaps we could all raise our taxes on the personal incomes of the wealthy, and repair our balance sheets. The US, alone of all the world economies, is big enough to do this. Would love to wave bye bye to the Caymans, Jersey, Monaco, etc.... Enough of the non-domiciled city financiers who pay less tax than their cleaners. Worldwide, we need their excess incomes to feed the schools and hospitals, not Ascot, Henley, the Hamptons, the Galway races etc

I would also hope that he would have enough sense to leave corpo tax alone, though.... job destruction isn't a good idea at the moment

The reports yesterday were that he is going to do just that - and that his hit list is the OECD list of tax havens.

http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/taxes/Factsheet_Tax_Plan_FINAL.pdf

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2008/1107/1225925538865.html

I see from his taxes Factsheet that closing down oil and gas tax loop holes is part of his plan. That's something we could look at here.

On the one hand his tax policy is homebased and protectionist, which is generally a sign of a sick economy and a rightward move politically, and on the other hand it would be very progressive if it lead to a much higher global rate of corporation tax/tax compliance. As he is talking about increasing corporation tax take in the US by more than 100 billion dollars, that money will either be coming from the corporations, or states like Ireland, or both. At very least I think we can be sure that he will be introducing a more competitive corporation tax regime in the US.

An article in the Independent pointed to a lot we could do to make Ireland a more competitive base for industry. At the end of the day though, is cutting each other's throats for a dwindling market in the slumps, and for our slice of expansion in booms, really the best way to live?
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PostSubject: Re: Breaking News: Obama is the 44th President Elect of the USA   Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:29 am



I just watched this video and was interested to hear the expression "the tyranny of the majority" used by an anti-Democrat for the third time this week.
Is it just a question of them being poor losers? If they don't want majority rule, what do they want?
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PostSubject: Re: Breaking News: Obama is the 44th President Elect of the USA   Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:37 am

Could it also be that in a general sense he has a point? The problem with our democratic structures is that they often exclude and also they foster base standards and are void of responsibility and effective accountability. The political structures are probably more in need of reform than the Banks. If the political structures were effective the financial mess currently besetting us would probably never have happened.
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PostSubject: Re: Breaking News: Obama is the 44th President Elect of the USA   Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:32 am

This guy has been 100% right for years. That is why he is on every other day on TV. Two problems, most people have no clue about the financial system and the other problem is Obama himself has no clue either. A crisis is now gauranteed.

The good news is that all the tin foil loonie tune ideas of free health care, extended unemployment payouts, global taxes, bailouts for everybody and all the other nutjob programs are going to be tried. Even better there will be a police state slapped on to stifle commom sense. The country may not survive as one entity but at least it will cure some socialists
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PostSubject: Re: Breaking News: Obama is the 44th President Elect of the USA   Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:40 am

cactus flower wrote:




I just watched this video and was interested to hear the expression "the tyranny of the majority" used by an anti-Democrat for the third time this week.
Is it just a question of them being poor losers? If they don't want majority rule, what do they want?

THere is a very strong fascist element to the construct of the present day Republican Party.
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PostSubject: Re: Breaking News: Obama is the 44th President Elect of the USA   Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:43 am

This guy is arguing against the Republicans
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PostSubject: Re: Breaking News: Obama is the 44th President Elect of the USA   Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:19 pm

youngdan wrote:
This guy is arguing against the Republicans

But not from a left-wing perspective.

The conversation also touches on a "military coup" as a governmental option for the United States.
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PostSubject: Re: Breaking News: Obama is the 44th President Elect of the USA   Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:28 pm

Youngdan, it's glaring obvious that you're a proponent of the Ayn Rand school of economics, and I would also say social thought. The problem is that they Randians don't really do social thought/analysis. Maybe you don't cite Rand but many of your posts certaintly tacitly express these views. I've had a good look at several sources; some of which you've provided and several others on the net which try to rationalise her theories. While she had to resort to a parable style of writing in order to communicate her vision, the Austrian school of economics is certainly the foundation which is fundamental to the Randian thought process. I've searched high and low for further elucidation about how large and complex societies should be governed and have come up with a complete blank. Therefore, I conclude the Rand/Austrians don't actually have a social program.

Right now, however, the financial crisis has seem to have excited the various strands of Randian thought. Many, it would seem, are hungering for financial collapse in order to rush into the breech, so to speak, and employ their Austrian school economic policies. Other policy strands seem to be: possibly doing away with all Federal taxation; abolition of all social security policies; complete overhaul of all existing legal frameworks to be replaced by simple rules of ownership and transference of ownership rights; a skeletal govt body on the Federal level; and abolition of the central banking. There are many other proposals but these give a flavour. Like I said, I can't find any policy detail on how these sweeping so-called reforms would take place. Randians most certainly don't care about the individual costs of such changes. I read one article which stated that if 25%+ unemployment were required to let supply and demand factors work their magic than that is just what should happen, and there should be no assistence of any sort given to the unemployed. Theoretically, the unemployable made bad decisions, according to the immutable laws of supply and demand, and they should suffer the consequences.

Overall, I just don't see how a system defined by simple supply and demand equations and a complete reliance on laissez-faire economics squared will do the job of governing today's huge population and diminishing resources. If anything it will lead to anarchy. There's only one thing the Randians hate more than commies and that's anarchy and anarchist philosophy. So, I suspect a Randian society would be heavily reliant on larege internal and external armies in order to ensure a functioning society. gl
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PostSubject: Re: Breaking News: Obama is the 44th President Elect of the USA   Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:25 pm

youngdan wrote:
Talk is cheap and the economy is out of the control of politicians to influence unless they actually minded their
own business.

The patriot acts are the yardstick as they could be repealed in 10 minutes. When they are not touched it should be clear to even the most muddled minds that they have been taken for suckers.

What will the fools on P.ie who were crying with joy explain it when Bush is not held to account. It is great. I can't wait for the free health care.

youngdan, what are the chances of a constitutional challenge to the measures Addington drafted, Cheney promoted and Bush signed?? These "interpretations" of law are a stain on the US legal system and when the PNAC nutters are removed from the White House, they have to disappear from the US legal code.
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PostSubject: Re: Breaking News: Obama is the 44th President Elect of the USA   Tue Nov 11, 2008 6:06 pm

When Bush came in some thought that Clinton would be held accountable for his crimes. Of major import to these people was the technical transfer to China and the 78 days of bombing of civilians. Most people that I meet now say Clinton did not kill these innocents. Never happened. Pat Buchannan said if he was elected he would personnelly arrest Clinton. Bush said he wanted to look to the future and not the past and they all went golfing. Now democrat supporters are more easily fooled than the rednecks and the fools will swallow the line that Obama is a uniter not a divider so it will be business as usual. I think Obama is even dumber than Bush and the fact that he is totally owned will be plain to see
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PostSubject: Re: Breaking News: Obama is the 44th President Elect of the USA   Tue Nov 11, 2008 6:22 pm

Any response to rockyracoon's post, youndan?
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PostSubject: Re: Breaking News: Obama is the 44th President Elect of the USA   Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:33 pm

Yes there was Cactus. A nice big long one as it deserved a separate post. Needless to say an overheated laptop shut down just as I finished.

So I will try again. The one time I tried to read Rand it was too boring even for me. Therefore I never mention her but a lot of people I read would indeed be advocates of her.

I am taking this crisis with a grain of salt. It justifies everything the likes of Peter Schiff has been saying. I am delighted that democrats control everything because there will be nobody to blame. They will attempt to control the economy by central planning just like the Soviets did. The result will be a currency which will be worth nothing. It is a certainty now that a vicious depression is coming. The voters swallowed the baloney. They do every time.

What has got to go is the central banks. These have been robbing the poor fools that don't understand them for far too long. The fools need a good shafting to clear what is left of their brains.

We will be either like East Germany if Obama gets his way or else we will go back to how things were after the revolution. The federal goverment needs to disappear by about 98%. The states must reassert their independence. Each state has it's own government at the moment well capable of running things.

I now expect some states to attempt to secede. We will see if there is anybody dumb enough to try to stop them. All the programs like social security and medicare have to go. Wrap it up it is all done.

They of course won't go without a struggle. Even before Jan 20 they will try to bail out the auto companies. The dollar will strenghten till it suddenly breaks and collapse totally in a very short time. When this deflation brings down a big entity, could be a state or a company then it is panic time

There will be unemployment. Without government interference there would be no unemployment as there is plenty of work to be done and plenty of eager workers to do it. If I am idle I would work for 100 dollars a day but the problem is the government mandates that it might cost 150 bucks with the result the potential employer figures it is not worth it. This entire crowd of parasites have sucked on the rest of us for long enough and must now shg off becuse we are broke. The welfare state is done.

We don't need a federal government governing us. They can do what the Constitution says they should do at 2% of the cost. The states can look after themselves
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PostSubject: Re: Breaking News: Obama is the 44th President Elect of the USA   Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:46 pm

youngdan wrote:
Yes there was Cactus. A nice big long one as it deserved a separate post. Needless to say an overheated laptop shut down just as I finished.

So I will try again. The one time I tried to read Rand it was too boring even for me. Therefore I never mention her but a lot of people I read would indeed be advocates of her.

I am taking this crisis with a grain of salt. It justifies everything the likes of Peter Schiff has been saying. I am delighted that democrats control everything because there will be nobody to blame. They will attempt to control the economy by central planning just like the Soviets did. The result will be a currency which will be worth nothing. It is a certainty now that a vicious depression is coming. The voters swallowed the baloney. They do every time.

What has got to go is the central banks. These have been robbing the poor fools that don't understand them for far too long. The fools need a good shafting to clear what is left of their brains.

We will be either like East Germany if Obama gets his way or else we will go back to how things were after the revolution. The federal goverment needs to disappear by about 98%. The states must reassert their independence. Each state has it's own government at the moment well capable of running things.

I now expect some states to attempt to secede. We will see if there is anybody dumb enough to try to stop them. All the programs like social security and medicare have to go. Wrap it up it is all done.

They of course won't go without a struggle. Even before Jan 20 they will try to bail out the auto companies. The dollar will strenghten till it suddenly breaks and collapse totally in a very short time. When this deflation brings down a big entity, could be a state or a company then it is panic time

There will be unemployment. Without government interference there would be no unemployment as there is plenty of work to be done and plenty of eager workers to do it. If I am idle I would work for 100 dollars a day but the problem is the government mandates that it might cost 150 bucks with the result the potential employer figures it is not worth it. This entire crowd of parasites have sucked on the rest of us for long enough and must now shg off becuse we are broke. The welfare state is done.

We don't need a federal government governing us. They can do what the Constitution says they should do at 2% of the cost. The states can look after themselves

How was it after the revolution? A tiny population and plenty of wild game? Some of the States are bankrupt already. Your scenario would only support a fraction of the population, yet you are constantly saying that "they" want to reduce the population. Are you sure that you are not "them"?
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PostSubject: Re: Breaking News: Obama is the 44th President Elect of the USA   Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:58 pm

Are you for real. Why would my scenario not support the present population
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PostSubject: Re: Breaking News: Obama is the 44th President Elect of the USA   Wed Nov 12, 2008 12:36 am

youngdan wrote:
Are you for real. Why would my scenario not support the present population

Well, for starters, some would be dead because of lack of medical care, homelessness and hunger. That's before we get on to the impacts of a massive economic contraction - did you see what happened to life expectancy in Russia when Freedom arrived? Then there would be all those hungry people and the guns...
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PostSubject: Re: Breaking News: Obama is the 44th President Elect of the USA   Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:02 am

Cactus Flower

Can you recall what happened to life expectancy in Russia when freedom was taken away?
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PostSubject: Re: Breaking News: Obama is the 44th President Elect of the USA   Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:07 am

PJ O'Rourke seems to share many of youngdan's concerns. This is a fantastic article. It's addressed to Conservatives and entitled 'We blew it'.

"Let us bend over and kiss our ass goodbye. Our 28-year conservative opportunity to fix the moral and practical boundaries of government is gone--gone with the bear market and the Bear Stearns and the bear that's headed off to do you-know-what in the woods on our philosophy.

An entire generation has been born, grown up, and had families of its own since Ronald Reagan was elected. And where is the world we promised these children of the Conservative Age? Where is this land of freedom and responsibility, knowledge, opportunity, accomplishment, honor, truth, trust, and one boring hour each week spent in itchy clothes at church, synagogue, or mosque? It lies in ruins at our feet, as well it might, since we ourselves kicked the shining city upon a hill into dust and rubble. The progeny of the Reagan Revolution will live instead in the universe that revolves around Hyde Park."


"In how many ways did we fail conservatism? And who can count that high? Take just one example of our unconserved tendency to poke our noses into other people's business: abortion. Democracy--be it howsoever conservative--is a manifestation of the will of the people. We may argue with the people as a man may argue with his wife, but in the end we must submit to the fact of being married. Get a pro-life friend drunk to the truth-telling stage and ask him what happens if his 14-year-old gets knocked up. What if it's rape? Some people truly have the courage of their convictions. I don't know if I'm one of them. I might kill the baby. I will kill the boy.

The real message of the conservative pro-life position is that we're in favor of living. We consider people--with a few obvious exceptions--to be assets. Liberals consider people to be nuisances. People are always needing more government resources to feed, house, and clothe them and to pick up the trash around their FEMA trailers and to make sure their self-esteem is high enough to join community organizers lobbying for more government resources.

If the citizenry insists that abortion remain legal--and, in a passive and conflicted way, the citizenry seems to be doing so--then give the issue a rest. Meanwhile we can, with the public's blessing, refuse to spend taxpayers' money on killing, circumscribe the timing and method of taking a human life, make sure parental consent is obtained when underage girls are involved, and tar and feather teenage boys and run them out of town on a rail. The law cannot be made identical with morality. Scan the list of the Ten Commandments and see how many could be enforced even by Rudy Giuliani.

Our impeachment of President Clinton was another example of placing the wrong political emphasis on personal matters. We impeached Clinton for lying to the government. To our surprise the electorate gave us cold comfort. Lying to the government: It's called April 15th. And we accused Clinton of lying about sex, which all men spend their lives doing, starting at 15 bragging about things we haven't done yet, then on to fibbing about things we are doing, and winding up with prevarications about things we no longer can do.

When the Monica Lewinsky news broke, my wife set me straight about the issue. "Here," she said, "is the most powerful man in the world. And everyone hates his wife. What's the matter with Sharon Stone? Instead, he's hitting on an emotionally disturbed intern barely out of her teens." But our horn rims were so fogged with detestation of Clinton that we couldn't see how really detestable he was. If we had stayed our hand in the House of Representatives and treated the brute with shunning or calls for interventions to make him seek help, we might have chased him out of the White House. (Although this probably would have required a U.S. news media from a parallel universe.)

Such things as letting the abortion debate be turned against us and using the gravity of the impeachment process on something that required the fly-swat of pest control were strategic errors. Would that blame could be put on our strategies instead of ourselves. We have lived up to no principle of conservatism.

Government is bigger than ever. We have fattened the stalled ox and hatred therewith rather than dined on herbs where love (and the voter) is. Instead of flattening the Department of Education with a wrecking ball we let it stand as a pulpit for Bill Bennett. When--to switch metaphors yet again--such a white elephant is not discarded someone will eventually try to ride in the howdah on its back. One of our supposed own did. No Child Left Behind? What if they deserve to be left behind? What if they deserve a smack on the behind? A nationwide program to test whether kids are what? Stupid? You've got kids. Kids are stupid."


"Conservatives should never say to voters, "We can lower your taxes." Conservatives should say to voters, "You can raise spending. You, the electorate, can, if you choose, have an infinite number of elaborate and expensive government programs. But we, the government, will have to pay for those programs. We have three ways to pay.

"We can inflate the currency, destroying your ability to plan for the future, wrecking the nation's culture of thrift and common sense, and giving free rein to scallywags to borrow money for worthless scams and pay it back 10 cents on the dollar.

"We can raise taxes. If the taxes are levied across the board, money will be taken from everyone's pocket, the economy will stagnate, and the poorest and least advantaged will be harmed the most. If the taxes are levied only on the wealthy, money will be taken from wealthy people's pockets, hampering their capacity to make loans and investments, the economy will stagnate, and the poorest and the least advantaged will be harmed the most.

"And we can borrow, building up a massive national debt. This will cause all of the above things to happen plus it will fund Red Chinese nuclear submarines that will be popping up in San Francisco Bay to get some decent Szechwan take-out."

Yes, this would make for longer and less pithy stump speeches. But we'd be showing ourselves to be men and women of principle. It might cost us, short-term. We might get knocked down for not whoring after bioenergy votes in the Iowa caucuses. But at least we wouldn't land on our scruples. And we could get up again with dignity intact, dust ourselves off, and take another punch at the liberal bully-boys who want to snatch the citizenry's freedom and tuck that freedom, like a trophy feather, into the hatbands of their greasy political bowlers.

But are we men and women of principle? And I don't mean in the matter of tricky and private concerns like gay marriage. Civil marriage is an issue of contract law. A constitutional amendment against gay marriage? I don't get it. How about a constitutional amendment against first marriages? Now we're talking. No, I speak, once again, of the geological foundations of conservatism."


http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/015/791jsebl.asp?pg=2
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PostSubject: Re: Breaking News: Obama is the 44th President Elect of the USA   Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:26 am

Squire wrote:
Cactus Flower

Can you recall what happened to life expectancy in Russia when freedom was taken away?

Would that be under the enlightened Tsarists? If it is, I doubt that 1. realiable statitics were available 2. that freedom wasn't freedom from virtual slavery and impoverishment for the vast majority of citizenry. Tsarist Russia could hardly be held as a beacon of free markets nor libertarian ideology. Quite the reverse.

Youngdan, I get back to you. I don't necessarily disagree with some of your positions regarding govt and how it affects the individual. However, on one point, your actually taking the US argument to pre-constitution days. If memory serves me correctly, the debate between a federal and confederate system was soundly hashed out between Madison and someone else. They also had a long term debate about credit in society which will be interesting to review.

The conservatism outlined by Unaligned wouldn't go down so well in a Federal and secular Europe I'm thinking; especially the bit about tarring and feathering. A conservatism based on the ten commandments, a document superceded by the Sermon on the Mount* in my estimation, doesn't address the economic issues whereas Rand/Austrian economic principles try to lay down commandment-like economic laws. If this is a so-called conservative agenda, both socially and economically, you can count me out of the society - and vehemently so.

* blessed are the cheese makers, etc.
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