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 Over 70s Medical Cards Means Test - Age Action Lines Busy - Cowen Announces U-turn

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PostSubject: Re: Over 70s Medical Cards Means Test - Age Action Lines Busy - Cowen Announces U-turn   Mon Oct 20, 2008 3:45 pm

cactus flower wrote:
eoinmn wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
The payments for the under 70s Medical Card is too low and the over 70s too high.
FF say the opposite.

I'm sure they are saying that the over 70s payment is too high and that the savings should all be made by the doctors taking a cut.

I think what they are saying is that different rates apply for over 70s depending on where they live. A Ballymun over 70 might be worth €200 per annum to his GP whereas a foxrock over 70 is worth €650 to his GP. Can anyone say if I have that right?
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PostSubject: Re: Over 70s Medical Cards Means Test - Age Action Lines Busy - Cowen Announces U-turn   Mon Oct 20, 2008 3:57 pm

Zhou_Enlai wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
eoinmn wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
The payments for the under 70s Medical Card is too low and the over 70s too high.
FF say the opposite.

I'm sure they are saying that the over 70s payment is too high and that the savings should all be made by the doctors taking a cut.

I think what they are saying is that different rates apply for over 70s depending on where they live. A Ballymun over 70 might be worth €200 per annum to his GP whereas a foxrock over 70 is worth €650 to his GP. Can anyone say if I have that right?

The rate is the same for all over 70s, so far as I understand, but the over 70s rate is several times higher than the under 70s. The financial advantage is to doctors who practice in areas with lots of healthy over 70 year olds.
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PostSubject: Re: Over 70s Medical Cards Means Test - Age Action Lines Busy - Cowen Announces U-turn   Mon Oct 20, 2008 3:57 pm

Well I know that plenty of people enjoy horse racing and grehound racing, however I feel it contributes nothing to public health or well being as say football or athletics would. It may even contribute to the gambling/drinking culture in the country. It should get very little if any state support money imo.

We have primary schools with broken plumbing and worn linoleum too. Yet the money is going to the dogs ??
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PostSubject: Re: Over 70s Medical Cards Means Test - Age Action Lines Busy - Cowen Announces U-turn   Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:19 pm

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:
Well I know that plenty of people enjoy horse racing and grehound racing, however I feel it contributes nothing to public health or well being as say football or athletics would. It may even contribute to the gambling/drinking culture in the country. It should get very little if any state support money imo.

We have primary schools with broken plumbing and worn linoleum too. Yet the money is going to the dogs ??

Cracked linoleum doesn't stop people being educated. Like it or not that is the truth. It does however prevent a greyhound stadium from marketing itself as a place for night out. Unlike the GAA, greyhounds provide additional income to low earners up and down the country. Unlike the horses, it is not sheiks and tycoons who get the benefit of the funding. Most people who go to the dogs bet feck all and many of them drink very little as they are there for the racing and the chat and not the alcohol. The car park is always full in Shelbourne and you don't see drunks getting in cars.

As regards the schools, they could have relocated schools to where the young families are if there was proper state control over school building and maintenance. The opaque way that the department deals with it and the lack of co-ordination with Local Authorities is evidence that serious and very urgent reform is needed in school building, maintenance and funding before additional funding is deployed. Labour were alive to this at the last election and the problem persists. None of them have the stomach for the teachers though.
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PostSubject: Re: Over 70s Medical Cards Means Test - Age Action Lines Busy - Cowen Announces U-turn   Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:22 pm

Zhou_Enlai wrote:
EvotingMachine0197 wrote:
Well I know that plenty of people enjoy horse racing and grehound racing, however I feel it contributes nothing to public health or well being as say football or athletics would. It may even contribute to the gambling/drinking culture in the country. It should get very little if any state support money imo.

We have primary schools with broken plumbing and worn linoleum too. Yet the money is going to the dogs ??

Cracked linoleum doesn't stop people being educated. Like it or not that is the truth. It does however prevent a greyhound stadium from marketing itself as a place for night out. Unlike the GAA, greyhounds provide additional income to low earners up and down the country. Unlike the horses, it is not sheiks and tycoons who get the benefit of the funding. Most people who go to the dogs bet feck all and many of them drink very little as they are there for the racing and the chat and not the alcohol. The car park is always full in Shelbourne and you don't see drunks getting in cars.

As regards the schools, they could have relocated schools to where the young families are if there was proper state control over school building and maintenance. The opaque way that the department deals with it and the lack of co-ordination with Local Authorities is evidence that serious and very urgent reform is needed in school building, maintenance and funding before additional funding is deployed. Labour were alive to this at the last election and the problem persists. None of them have the stomach for the teachers though.

Agreed that this needs reform, but it is the Churches, not the teachers, that are the vested interest on this one.
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PostSubject: Re: Over 70s Medical Cards Means Test - Age Action Lines Busy - Cowen Announces U-turn   Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:49 pm

No reason why the State cannot open new schools without the Churches as patron in areas of rapid development. The schools in areas without children will eventually be starved and force to close regardless of whether it is the State or the Church who is in charge.

The VEC, a statutory body, has only recently taken an interest in running national schools - where have they been all this time? Never hear much criticism of them. Surely this is the greater cop out.

It is very easy to blame the Churches but where has the State been in offering an alternative?
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PostSubject: Re: Over 70s Medical Cards Means Test - Age Action Lines Busy - Cowen Announces U-turn   Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:30 am

Press conference at 9:45 this morning.
RTÉ Radio 1 will be carrying it.
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PostSubject: Re: Over 70s Medical Cards Means Test - Age Action Lines Busy - Cowen Announces U-turn   Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:56 am

Only new people with incomes of over €36,000 will not get a medical card.

If those excluded have hardship they can apply for a medical card.

Existing card holders will not have to submit a means test.

A political climbdown of the highest order. Brian Cowen made a good decision not to go to China I think.
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PostSubject: Re: Over 70s Medical Cards Means Test - Age Action Lines Busy - Cowen Announces U-turn   Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:58 am

Zhou_Enlai wrote:
Only new people with incomes of over €36,000 will not get a medical card.

If those excluded have hardship they can apply for a medical card.

Existing card holders will not have to submit a means test.

A political climbdown of the highest order. Brian Cowen made a good decision not to go to China I think.

Is there a change on the levy too, Zhou ?
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PostSubject: Re: Over 70s Medical Cards Means Test - Age Action Lines Busy - Cowen Announces U-turn   Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:00 pm

cactus flower wrote:
Is there a change on the levy too, Zhou ?
Income levy? No.

The higher rate which GPs are paid for over 70s medical cards is unsustainable and will be changed - Harney
Extreme regret over the anxiety caused - Gormley & Cowen.
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PostSubject: Re: Over 70s Medical Cards Means Test - Age Action Lines Busy - Cowen Announces U-turn   Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:05 pm

Zhou_Enlai wrote:
Only new people with incomes of over €36,000 will not get a medical card.

If those excluded have hardship they can apply for a medical card.

Existing card holders will not have to submit a means test.

A political climbdown of the highest order. Brian Cowen made a good decision not to go to China I think.

so in a stroke they lost about E70-80m of the E100m saving. any word on how they're going to plug the gap?

i assume the budget is currently unbalanced!
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PostSubject: Re: Over 70s Medical Cards Means Test - Age Action Lines Busy - Cowen Announces U-turn   Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:09 pm

Even if they balanced it today, it would be unbalanced again in 2 weeks, if the rate of decline of exchequer returns is to be believed. Davy said the Gov numbers are miles off.
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PostSubject: Re: Over 70s Medical Cards Means Test - Age Action Lines Busy - Cowen Announces U-turn   Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:10 pm

cactus flower wrote:

Is there a change on the levy too, Zhou ?
No mention of it. That will be done in the implementing legislation and will be explained in terms of practicalities of implementation. The Unions aren't going to rock the boat if they get their way on this. the next storm, as seen on Q & A last night, is the teachers.
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PostSubject: Re: Over 70s Medical Cards Means Test - Age Action Lines Busy - Cowen Announces U-turn   Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:14 pm

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:
Even if they balanced it today, it would be unbalanced again in 2 weeks, if the rate of decline of exchequer returns is to be believed. Davy said the Gov numbers are miles off.
My stomach is churning about the economic future of the country and the western world every day. I never thought I would feel like this. A return to the nineteen eighties would be tough but I'd get over it, in fact at this stage I'd welcome it with open arms.
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PostSubject: Re: Over 70s Medical Cards Means Test - Age Action Lines Busy - Cowen Announces U-turn   Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:18 pm

Zhou_Enlai wrote:
EvotingMachine0197 wrote:
Even if they balanced it today, it would be unbalanced again in 2 weeks, if the rate of decline of exchequer returns is to be believed. Davy said the Gov numbers are miles off.
My stomach is churning about the economic future of the country and the western world every day. I never thought I would feel like this. A return to the nineteen eighties would be tough but I'd get over it, in fact at this stage I'd welcome it with open arms.

Me too, about the churning. The uncertainty is huge. The 1980s were a doddle in comparison I'd say - at least there were places to emigrate to.

Good luck everyone !
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PostSubject: Re: Over 70s Medical Cards Means Test - Age Action Lines Busy - Cowen Announces U-turn   Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:20 pm

Two PD councillors resign over this

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhidcwidauoj/

scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Over 70s Medical Cards Means Test - Age Action Lines Busy - Cowen Announces U-turn   Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:24 pm

Auditor #9 wrote:
Two PD councillors resign over this
Bizarre!

Except, I'm not sure about Terry Flaherty, but it seemed Thomás Welby was just biding his time before leaving the PDs. He was never a true believer in the PDs, it was just a party of convience for him. So I suppose he sees this as an appropriate moment to jump.
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PostSubject: Re: Over 70s Medical Cards Means Test - Age Action Lines Busy - Cowen Announces U-turn   Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:30 pm

I think they resigned before the announcement.

The question is, if the Government was wrong about the medical cards and the levy, and the car parking proposal (no one thought about if it was implementable) what else is there in the budget that is wrong, or non-feasible.

The whole approach, ethics and level of thought put into it is faulty, whether or not you agree with the politics. Bringing it forward two months may have contributed to the disaster, but have those responsible not heard of weekend working? There is an alarming lack of seriousness and effort, as well as poor judgement.

It really should be back to the drawing board.
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PostSubject: Re: Over 70s Medical Cards Means Test - Age Action Lines Busy - Cowen Announces U-turn   Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:34 pm

cactus flower wrote:


The question is, if the Government was wrong about the medical cards and the levy, and the car parking proposal (no one thought about if it was implementable) what else is there in the budget that is wrong.

The teacher cuts ? The unimplementable bicycle thingy (someone in the dept. is a hash head) ?
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PostSubject: Re: Over 70s Medical Cards Means Test - Age Action Lines Busy - Cowen Announces U-turn   Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:36 pm

Zhou_Enlai wrote:
EvotingMachine0197 wrote:
Even if they balanced it today, it would be unbalanced again in 2 weeks, if the rate of decline of exchequer returns is to be believed. Davy said the Gov numbers are miles off.
My stomach is churning about the economic future of the country and the western world every day. I never thought I would feel like this. A return to the nineteen eighties would be tough but I'd get over it, in fact at this stage I'd welcome it with open arms.

Zhou - no matter how bad things are, a plan is needed that thinks medium and long term as well as short term, and it needs consensus and support of the population behind it. That can' t be got if a few top dogs are looked after and the rest asked to shoulder it all.

Personally, i think no matter what is going on that we should be developing our local renewable energy sources, energy conservation and our broadband network. Most of what is in the NDP could wait and will have to. But there has to be both survival tactics for the whole population and a strategy for the future.
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PostSubject: Re: Over 70s Medical Cards Means Test - Age Action Lines Busy - Cowen Announces U-turn   Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:49 pm

Yeah the whole thing needs a strategy and people need to wake the fuck up too which is what they seem to be doing but how long will that last? You can't rely on elected reps now, things have to change. More transparency or something - more teeth for the C&AG ..

That bicycle thingy - did that make the Greens look like a sorry bunch beside all these raging goings-on around them ? Not that I don't disagree with it - I think Dublin could do with a good overhaul but to announce it in a major and important budget like this ... ?

The likes of this could be a suggestion which percolates up from lobby groups and is implemented (or not) by 3-month participatory vote like the situation in Switzerland.
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PostSubject: Re: Over 70s Medical Cards Means Test - Age Action Lines Busy - Cowen Announces U-turn   Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:52 pm

Auditor #9 wrote:
Yeah the whole thing needs a strategy and people need to wake the fuck up too which is what they seem to be doing but how long will that last? You can't rely on elected reps now, things have to change. More transparency or something - more teeth for the C&AG ..

That bicycle thingy - did that make the Greens look like a sorry bunch beside all these raging goings-on around them ? Not that I don't disagree with it - I think Dublin could do with a good overhaul but to announce it in a major and important budget like this ... ?

The likes of this could be a suggestion which percolates up from lobby groups and is implemented (or not) by 3-month participatory vote like the situation in Switzerland.

What was the problem with the bike grants, Auditor ?
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PostSubject: Re: Over 70s Medical Cards Means Test - Age Action Lines Busy - Cowen Announces U-turn   Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:55 pm

Yes.. the bicycle tax saver scheme seems easily implementable to me.
Its the car parking fee that nobody seems to know how it will be done.

I suspect the govt might charge the employer €200 per employee but then ask the employer to figure out how to pass on the cost. So different companies will do it different ways.
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PostSubject: Re: Over 70s Medical Cards Means Test - Age Action Lines Busy - Cowen Announces U-turn   Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:11 pm

cactus flower wrote:

Agreed that this needs reform, but it is the Churches, not the teachers, that are the vested interest on this one.
Would this be the same church that announced not so long ago that it wants to get rid of the burden of running the schools?
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PostSubject: Re: Over 70s Medical Cards Means Test - Age Action Lines Busy - Cowen Announces U-turn   Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:25 pm

905 wrote:
cactus flower wrote:

Agreed that this needs reform, but it is the Churches, not the teachers, that are the vested interest on this one.
Would this be the same church that announced not so long ago that it wants to get rid of the burden of running the schools?

Wan't that running, but not owning and controlling? Correct me if I'm wrong.
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