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 Why the Left is more relevant than ever

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PostSubject: Re: Why the Left is more relevant than ever   Tue Oct 14, 2008 5:54 pm

Respvblica wrote:
cactus flower wrote:


Free market ideology is imo about the right of the few to exploit the many. We are seeing at the moment that it brings about the most grotesque and unweildy concentrations of capital in the hands of very few people.

But you could argue that this is because the market is not fully free. The injustice derives from it being distrorted by corruption - the influence of people in high places(the politcians) and insider information(again political power not enforcing the law). That would also be Paul's view.

The Free Market is actually more democratic than many so called democratic institutions which are essentially rigged between two pointless political parties. Its true that "votes" are graded by the amount of capital one has, but if properly regulated (that is regulated to ensure that there is no interferance) then the big players can be the big losers as well.
Make no mistake about it, practices like naked shorting were simply wrong. Huge speculation of peoples livelyhoods is also wrong and should be looked at in the future. What we need are strong laws to protect against abuse but not arbitary government interferance.
I'm also not averse to increasing taxes on capital gains, property and speculation. Taxing those is certainly much fairer than taxing labour.

Most people do not have any capital at all. The family house doesn't count -they can't sell it as its being lived in. Half of the planet lives on a dollar a day or less. They have no option other than to sell their labour powers for a living. The Free Market allows people with money to buy politicians lock stock and smoking barrel - and they do. The present crash is imo not because of corruption, its because of the need to invest capital and get a return from it, as the intrinsic heart of the system. Its been in the making since 1971 and before.

I agree with you about taxation.
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PostSubject: Re: Why the Left is more relevant than ever   Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:14 pm

cactus flower wrote:
Respvblica wrote:
cactus flower wrote:


Free market ideology is imo about the right of the few to exploit the many. We are seeing at the moment that it brings about the most grotesque and unweildy concentrations of capital in the hands of very few people.

But you could argue that this is because the market is not fully free. The injustice derives from it being distrorted by corruption - the influence of people in high places(the politcians) and insider information(again political power not enforcing the law). That would also be Paul's view.

The Free Market is actually more democratic than many so called democratic institutions which are essentially rigged between two pointless political parties. Its true that "votes" are graded by the amount of capital one has, but if properly regulated (that is regulated to ensure that there is no interferance) then the big players can be the big losers as well.
Make no mistake about it, practices like naked shorting were simply wrong. Huge speculation of peoples livelyhoods is also wrong and should be looked at in the future. What we need are strong laws to protect against abuse but not arbitary government interferance.
I'm also not averse to increasing taxes on capital gains, property and speculation. Taxing those is certainly much fairer than taxing labour.

Most people do not have any capital at all. The family house doesn't count -they can't sell it as its being lived in. Half of the planet lives on a dollar a day or less. They have no option other than to sell their labour powers for a living. The Free Market allows people with money to buy politicians lock stock and smoking barrel - and they do. The present crash is imo not because of corruption, its because of the need to invest capital and get a return from it, as the intrinsic heart of the system. Its been in the making since 1971 and before.

I agree with you about taxation.

Yes, I agree that there are issues even with speculation and playing the market and then there is the issue of huge amounts of cash just waiting there to buy the political power.

I'm glad we agree about the tax but you know what always happens:Tax the excessive capital and it flows away(under the carpet, ie black money or abroad) and nobody wants tax harmonisation and there are always countries only too happy to undercut you to attract that capital in the same way that Ireland did with corporate tax in the EU. I suppose its just easier to tax the PAYE workers Mad

I'm still optimistic that there are ways to get out of this rut.
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PostSubject: Re: Why the Left is more relevant than ever   Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:00 pm

Respvblica wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
Respvblica wrote:
cactus flower wrote:


Free market ideology is imo about the right of the few to exploit the many. We are seeing at the moment that it brings about the most grotesque and unweildy concentrations of capital in the hands of very few people.

But you could argue that this is because the market is not fully free. The injustice derives from it being distrorted by corruption - the influence of people in high places(the politcians) and insider information(again political power not enforcing the law). That would also be Paul's view.

The Free Market is actually more democratic than many so called democratic institutions which are essentially rigged between two pointless political parties. Its true that "votes" are graded by the amount of capital one has, but if properly regulated (that is regulated to ensure that there is no interferance) then the big players can be the big losers as well.
Make no mistake about it, practices like naked shorting were simply wrong. Huge speculation of peoples livelyhoods is also wrong and should be looked at in the future. What we need are strong laws to protect against abuse but not arbitary government interferance.
I'm also not averse to increasing taxes on capital gains, property and speculation. Taxing those is certainly much fairer than taxing labour.

Most people do not have any capital at all. The family house doesn't count -they can't sell it as its being lived in. Half of the planet lives on a dollar a day or less. They have no option other than to sell their labour powers for a living. The Free Market allows people with money to buy politicians lock stock and smoking barrel - and they do. The present crash is imo not because of corruption, its because of the need to invest capital and get a return from it, as the intrinsic heart of the system. Its been in the making since 1971 and before.

I agree with you about taxation.

Yes, I agree that there are issues even with speculation and playing the market and then there is the issue of huge amounts of cash just waiting there to buy the political power.

I'm glad we agree about the tax but you know what always happens:Tax the excessive capital and it flows away(under the carpet, ie black money or abroad) and nobody wants tax harmonisation and there are always countries only too happy to undercut you to attract that capital in the same way that Ireland did with corporate tax in the EU. I suppose its just easier to tax the PAYE workers Mad

I'm still optimistic that there are ways to get out of this rut.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21000.htm

Aragon posted this on another thread. It is a company man talking about the corruption of political leaders by corporations, and what happens to them if they won't be corrupted.

A bit long, and more than a bit naive in his conclusions imo, but still worth listening to.

What we need is a new model, that delivers environmental and social sustainability and peace. There are a few serious obstacles, but we do have some new factors that are positive, the internet and birth control being two of them.
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PostSubject: Re: Why the Left is more relevant than ever   Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:21 pm

I'll definitely have a look at that.

What kind of model are you proposing?
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