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 Which party should I join?

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PostSubject: Re: Which party should I join?   Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:37 pm

ibis wrote:
evercloserunion wrote:
I'm not up for writing a big OP right now so I'll keep it brief. I'm looking to join a party. I'm just out of the Socialist Party, am no longer a socialist. I am centre-left, socially liberal, believe in social democracy mixed with economic pragmatism. Pro-Europe, internationalist, secularist.

Any suggestions?

I think it depends on quite a lot of other factors. I'd fit your description, pretty much, but environmental issues are dominant for me, so I'd usually go Green-Labour in voting, and the Greens are the only party I've considered joining (the more so since the last GE).
I should have mentioned that I am pro-environment as well, but for some reason I always assume that goes without saying. I think what separates me from a lot of the more hardline environmentalists is that I don't support green policies because I think we owe something to mother earth, but rather because it makes good sense from an economic and social point of view. I don't know which camp the Greens would fall into but I am impressed with what I have seen from them. I reckon I would always give the Greens transfers if I could, but I don't know if I'd join them as they seem too single-issue for me. I'm picky, I know!
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PostSubject: Re: Which party should I join?   Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:41 pm

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:
evercloserunion wrote:
I'm not up for writing a big OP right now so I'll keep it brief. I'm looking to join a party. I'm just out of the Socialist Party, am no longer a socialist. I am centre-left, socially liberal, believe in social democracy mixed with economic pragmatism. Pro-Europe, internationalist, secularist.

Any suggestions?

Ah, you were under a monicker of a rather different complexion there about a month ago. I remember reading the thread on P.ie about your wish to change username to more accurately reflect your newfound political affiliations and outlook.

I'd join the PDs for the craic and be there for the final moments of that party's existence before signing up for either Labour or the Green Party.

The PDs were my party but I'm going to be ideologically homeless in about a month's time so I think I'll invest my own energies into the Green Party. I think they'd be the perfect party if they adopted a firmly liberal economic policy to go with all the other great stuff they're doing.
Very Happy I wonder if I joined the PDs a day before they officially wind up could I then claim to have brought them down from the inside.

Regarding a kind of Green PD party though, I don't think environmental protection and laissez-faire economic policies really go hand in hand. In any case, I don't think it's reasonable to expect a party which can get seats at election time to change its policies to those of one which can't.
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PostSubject: Re: Which party should I join?   Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:56 pm

cactus flower wrote:
SeathrúnCeitinn wrote:
Bearing in mind that you've just left a socialist collective....next stop would be Sinn Féin followed by the Worker's Party then veer more to your right to the Democratic left then bat your eyelids at Labour before declaring for the Blueshirts while later revealing that you were FF all along........you could end up as a Senator......bizarrer things have happened.

The problem is that not only the individual punters but also the parties have drifted right. Notwithstanding evercloserunion's rightward trajectory, is there not a need for a party of the left that stays there, and show's some sturdy signs of life? evercloserunion doesn't seem to have been too sold on the Socialist Party. Where did it all go wrong I wonder?

If anyone wants ask Eamon Gilmore, he'll be at the Heritage, Port Laoise, tonight http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhqlidcwqlql/
I do think that the Socialist Party is the most sustainable far-left party in Ireland today, and I can Higgins reclaiming his seat in 2012, perhaps with Daly grabbing one as well depending on the state of the economy at the time.

My beef with socialism is rather complex. I do think it is a good idea, and I'm not even going to say that it's inherently unworkable. Maybe a few hundred years down the line we'll all be living happily and consensually in a classless society, that would be cool. But maybe not. And even if it's going to happen, it's not going to happen in this lifetime, or in the next, and I don't think it's going to be given the chance. In short, being a socialist and pushing for socialism achieves nothing.

I also have a problem with the current leftist movements. I don't need to tell you that a lot of leftists are nutjobs, who prefer to scream clichés than engage in rational discourse. I always held that the Socialist Party were better then that, and indeed they are. But the Lisbon campaign showed me that they themselves are little more than professional agitators, unable to support something which is, in my mind, clearly a good deal for workers simple because it wasn't written up by Lenin or Trotsky.
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PostSubject: Re: Which party should I join?   Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:33 pm

Quote :
I think what separates me from a lot of the more hardline environmentalists is that I don't support green policies because I think we owe something to mother earth, but rather because it makes good sense from an economic and social point of view.
That's more or less me too with environmentalism. It'd be nice to have more green machines too or sustainable technology and I'm of the mind at the moment that the free market can deliver this. However, as we are seeing at the moment there are possibly good reasons for some central control over some economic sectors with a socialist slant (water, railways, airline slots?)... given that the banking mess originated in poor regulation (I suspect) shouldn't there be some control over it? Interest rates seem to be a problem and I'm wondering could there be a blend of regulation/socialism/environmentalism/free marketism in that the money supply could be regulated using certain structures that would reflect sustainability? Money and interest could be based on and tied to CO2 or to energy - so, you would have a lower cost loan if your project entailed using less energy or generating less CO2 ... trouble about this theory of mine is, I don't really believe in global warming yet but that might not be a barrier to the system - it would be a way to distribute wealth as well as create it as people might borrow if their project would cost them less.

Something so simple might work but it'd be very complicated to work out all the CO2. A lot of green thinking seems to make sense anyway and it's more and more likely that mainstream parties will adopt more and more green policies - I believe that the traditional Left like Labour is automatically greened. I'd love to know how the greens would approach the HSE quagmire though - I'm sure the thrust of their policies might be holistic in that to consume more veggies and get more exercise might obviate many treatments. That may not be a bad idea at all.
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PostSubject: Re: Which party should I join?   Fri Sep 19, 2008 11:13 pm

evercloserunion wrote:
Ard-Taoiseach wrote:
evercloserunion wrote:
I'm not up for writing a big OP right now so I'll keep it brief. I'm looking to join a party. I'm just out of the Socialist Party, am no longer a socialist. I am centre-left, socially liberal, believe in social democracy mixed with economic pragmatism. Pro-Europe, internationalist, secularist.

Any suggestions?

Ah, you were under a monicker of a rather different complexion there about a month ago. I remember reading the thread on P.ie about your wish to change username to more accurately reflect your newfound political affiliations and outlook.

I'd join the PDs for the craic and be there for the final moments of that party's existence before signing up for either Labour or the Green Party.

The PDs were my party but I'm going to be ideologically homeless in about a month's time so I think I'll invest my own energies into the Green Party. I think they'd be the perfect party if they adopted a firmly liberal economic policy to go with all the other great stuff they're doing.
Very Happy I wonder if I joined the PDs a day before they officially wind up could I then claim to have brought them down from the inside.

Regarding a kind of Green PD party though, I don't think environmental protection and laissez-faire economic policies really go hand in hand. In any case, I don't think it's reasonable to expect a party which can get seats at election time to change its policies to those of one which can't.

The reason I vote Green is that I see the most important problems currently facing humanity as environmental problems. Market-based secular social democracy I see as beating the alternative socio-economic systems, so most of what is taking place there are simple adjustments - although one should not underestimate the dangers of disenfranchisement and disengagement.

Laissez-faire market policies...well, no market beyond the most basic survives without both regulation and law, so people who call for laissez-faire most often mean only that the government should not make specific regulations. Those who worship the free market often have very little understanding of how markets work in any case. There are plenty of goods which are best delivered through a market mechanism, but there are plenty that aren't, and ideological commitment to the use of markets where they not appropriate, or to non-market mechanisms where those are inefficient, are equally foolish.

Whatever allows the greatest prosperity for humanity, with the least impact on the rest of the planet (and future generations of humanity too), is where we need to go. How we get there is something that can best be determined by pragmatism, not ideology or populism.
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PostSubject: Re: Which party should I join?   Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:13 am

evercloserunion wrote:
I'm not up for writing a big OP right now so I'll keep it brief. I'm looking to join a party. I'm just out of the Socialist Party, am no longer a socialist. I am centre-left, socially liberal, believe in social democracy mixed with economic pragmatism. Pro-Europe, internationalist, secularist.

Any suggestions?

Perhaps you belong on the "Just Society" wing of FG, and perhaps the John Kelly quote in your signature shows an affinity for FG.

I am not a member of any party, although I almost always vote for FG, mainly for anti-corruption reasons.

If you've just left one party, you don't actually have to join another one immediately. Maybe you should take some time to think about it.

From my own perspective, I think that the current situation, in which FF appears to be almost permanently in government, able to coalesce with the PDs, the Greens or Labour to keep themselves in office, is very unhealthy. The fact that the smaller parties seem prepared to keep FF in office means that FF never have to take responsibility for their actions, and that in itself almost guarantees bad government.
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PostSubject: Re: Which party should I join?   Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:22 am

You and Cooiemonster should form a party....and...er....get a room......i mean make up and get a room
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