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 Panorama on the Omagh Bomb - Are you Watching ?

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PostSubject: Panorama on the Omagh Bomb - Are you Watching ?   Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:32 pm

Just starting on BBC 1.
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PostSubject: Re: Panorama on the Omagh Bomb - Are you Watching ?   Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:39 pm

No, not going to. Seen enough things on the atrocity to be honest. I just hope whatever information which might come out can be put to use by the families of the victims. That is all.
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PostSubject: Re: Panorama on the Omagh Bomb - Are you Watching ?   Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:22 pm

Panorama says that GCHQ was listening in to the mobile phone when the
Banbridge bomb was planted and heard the words "the bricks are in the wall" and a number, being minutes to detonation. They do not know if it was listened to "live". GCHQ also intercepting and recording mobiles on the day of Omagh - Special Branch say they requested live monitoring - the Special Branch had warned of a car bomb the day before and were expecting. 12.41 the bombers used the mobiles in the Republic. A scout car went first to see there were no blocks on the road and they kept in touch with the bomb car by mobile.

The same mobile was at the Banbridge bombing. 12.50 scout car mobile received a car from a public phone box at Barnies filling station (box was also bugged) The voice had been recorded 3 weeks before at a mortaring. The programme says a named RIRA member spoke to the Samaritans to see they were working so that a warning could be phoned to them later.

They crossed the border at Aughnacloy. Both mobiles were then on Vodaphone, trackable and decoded by GCHQ who could follow the mobiles from mast to mast within a couple of hundred meters. Nuala O'Loan said that a road block could have been set up and the bomb car stopped - they would have abandoned the car before the block. 2.10 the bomb car arrived in Omagh. "The bricks are in the wall" code was given again.

The Samaritans were phoned and warned of a 500 pound bomb but the street was not cleared in time. The detectives investigating were not told by GCHQ that someone named Seamus had used the phone. The CID investigated and the Special Branch was meant to pass intelligence to them. None of the stories match up.

The bomb was exploded on Saturday and Special Branch say that they didn't get any intelligence until late Tuesday. The regional head of SB was told by GCHQ "we missed it". The CID log says that SB didnt brief detectives and GCHQ wouldnt allow the SB to know that there had been intercepts. The detectives looked through 6.4 million phone records. 9 months later they identified 24 phones used in 9 bombings but had no voices.

The Government say No Comment.

Intercept evidence cant be used in court but could have been given to the detectives. What is Intelligence for? Great question. What is the threshold by which the interests of natural security are overtaken by the interests of the people. The programme made a case for using "intercept evidence" in the courts to get convictions. It directly accused two people, whose faces were shown, of carrying out the bombings.

I remember the Garda Commissioner announcing that the people who did it would never be caught, and thinking how bizarre and wrong, of course the possibility existed they would be found.

On P.ie Merle Haggard says that the bomb was UK inspired and that the Gardai and M15 were complicit and others say that, like 9/11, it was permitted to discredit the RIRA and to clear the road for Sinn Fein. Other posters won't have any of it and say that excuses are being made for the RIRA. From the programme, it was possible that GCHQ were off the ball.

I struggle to understand how anyone could think that terror attacks against civilians could ever have brought about a united Ireland. The result has been a divided community, and a disunited Ireland. There seem to be Republicans who say that MI5/6 have instigated bombings, but don't condemn bombings of civilians in principal when carried out by self proclaimed Republicans. Can anyone explain this?
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PostSubject: Re: Panorama on the Omagh Bomb - Are you Watching ?   Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:22 pm

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhqlqlidqley/

Families in Omagh held a press conference today and say they are going to take legal action against the State for withholding information on a crime.
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PostSubject: Re: Panorama on the Omagh Bomb - Are you Watching ?   Wed Sep 17, 2008 2:59 pm

Well their potential legal action would be ultimately doomed to failure owing to the various Official Secrets Acts. Their routes through European law would be barred on the basis of national security, which is a legitimate derogation under Community law.

However, thankfully for the families, they will not have to do this. Gordon Brown has ordered a review of intelligence documents in light of the Panorama programme. It is currently being reported on all major news stations and has been confirmed by Downing Street. The review will be carried out by Sir Peter Gibson, the Intelligence Services Commissioner.

BBC
RTE


Last edited by johnfás on Wed Sep 17, 2008 3:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Panorama on the Omagh Bomb - Are you Watching ?   Wed Sep 17, 2008 3:02 pm

johnfás wrote:
Well their potential legal action would be ultimately doomed to failure owing to the various Official Secrets Acts. Their routes through European law would be barred on the basis of national security, which is a legitimate derogation under Community law.

However, thankfully for the families, they will not have to do this. Gordon Brown has ordered a review of intelligence documents in light of the Panorama programme.

This is very good news. Any link ? I hope more satisfaction is to be had here than in relation to the Monaghan and Dublin bombings.
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PostSubject: Re: Panorama on the Omagh Bomb - Are you Watching ?   Wed Sep 17, 2008 3:04 pm

Just edited post above to include links.
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PostSubject: Re: Panorama on the Omagh Bomb - Are you Watching ?   Wed Sep 17, 2008 3:06 pm

cactus flower wrote:
I hope more satisfaction is to be had here than in relation to the Monaghan and Dublin bombings.

More than likely. Nobody in the know thinks that the British State or the intelligence services on either side of the border had anything to do with the Omagh Bombing. There was however a catastrophic failure of intelligence which allowed it to happen. On that basis Omagh and the Dublin & Monaghan bombings are not comparable in terms of the review of intelligence.
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PostSubject: Re: Panorama on the Omagh Bomb - Are you Watching ?   Wed Sep 17, 2008 3:15 pm

johnfás wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
I hope more satisfaction is to be had here than in relation to the Monaghan and Dublin bombings.

More than likely. Nobody in the know thinks that the British State or the intelligence services on either side of the border had anything to do with the Omagh Bombing. There was however a catastrophic failure of intelligence which allowed it to happen. On that basis Omagh and the Dublin & Monaghan bombings are not comparable in terms of the review of intelligence.

The Republican movement is riddled with agents of the British and US states. It would be ludicrous to think that some of them did not go with the RIRA. In order to be sufficiently "in the know" to say that, it would have to be known who initiated the bombing, carried it out and facilitated it and to know whether or not they were agents. Our Chief Commissioner of the Gardai has said that we will "never know" who was responsible for the bombing.

So who are those "in the know" and what is their role ?
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PostSubject: Re: Panorama on the Omagh Bomb - Are you Watching ?   Wed Sep 17, 2008 4:22 pm

You appear to be muddling two issues here, both of which are interrelated but at the same time separate.

First, is the idea of intelligence service involvement in proscribed groups and the facilitaton of the actions of such groups. This certainly does occur and it is by no means limited to the British intelligence services or indeed Northern Ireland. We have it on a micro level in regard to criminal activity even in Ireland where I am quite sure the Gardaí facilitate the importation of drugs and so on in order to land the bigger fish.

Second, is the fact that whilst there are and were intelligence officials infultrating most proscribed organisations this does not mean that they facilitate all their actions or indeed that within some organisations that they facilitate any of their actions. There is however the distinct possibility and perhaps likelihood when you are playin high stakes poker that you will miss the ball and a catastrophic failure of intelligence will lead to groups carrying out a major activity.

I would contend that the latter was the case in regard to Omagh. I know various people who are involved with alot of stuff in Northern Ireland and they would contend likewise. There are certainly other atrocities which were carried out during the Troubles where one could contend that the first explanation was the cause of the atrocity and that applies to atrocities carried out by both 'sides'.

What you need following an event caused by a breakdown in the second explanation is a review of processes within intelligence services and similar organisations rather than necessarily a change of purpose, which is required following the former. Of course this will not occur in the public eye. Whilst notions of natural justice would lead one to believe that it should, it is the nature of our system that it cannot. To publicly scrutinise every aspect of the intelligence services would be more dangerous into the future than it would achieve closure for past wrongs.

That is not to say that I do not support the victims of any of these atrocities or their search for answers, God knows I actually know people who have died during the Troubles. It is merely a reflection of what will in actuality happen and indeed would regardless of whether it is 'British Justice' or any other sort of justice. It is a sad fact that the law and justice are very different things and furthermore that they rarely meet.
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PostSubject: Re: Panorama on the Omagh Bomb - Are you Watching ?   Wed Sep 17, 2008 4:41 pm

johnfás wrote:
You appear to be muddling two issues here, both of which are interrelated but at the same time separate.

First, is the idea of intelligence service involvement in proscribed groups and the facilitaton of the actions of such groups. This certainly does occur and it is by no means limited to the British intelligence services or indeed Northern Ireland. We have it on a micro level in regard to criminal activity even in Ireland where I am quite sure the Gardaí facilitate the importation of drugs and so on in order to land the bigger fish.

Second, is the fact that whilst there are and were intelligence officials infultrating most proscribed organisations this does not mean that they facilitate all their actions or indeed that within some organisations that they facilitate any of their actions. There is however the distinct possibility and perhaps likelihood when you are playin high stakes poker that you will miss the ball and a catastrophic failure of intelligence will lead to groups carrying out a major activity.

I would contend that the latter was the case in regard to Omagh. I know various people who are involved with alot of stuff in Northern Ireland and they would contend likewise. There are certainly other atrocities which were carried out during the Troubles where one could contend that the first explanation was the cause of the atrocity and that applies to atrocities carried out by both 'sides'.

What you need following an event caused by a breakdown in the second explanation is a review of processes within intelligence services and similar organisations rather than necessarily a change of purpose, which is required following the former. Of course this will not occur in the public eye. Whilst notions of natural justice would lead one to believe that it should, it is the nature of our system that it cannot. To publicly scrutinise every aspect of the intelligence services would be more dangerous into the future than it would achieve closure for past wrongs.

That is not to say that I do not support the victims of any of these atrocities or their search for answers, God knows I actually know people who have died during the Troubles. It is merely a reflection of what will in actuality happen and indeed would regardless of whether it is 'British Justice' or any other sort of justice. It is a sad fact that the law and justice are very different things and furthermore that they rarely meet.

I don't think there is much disagreement about the involvement of the IS ( US as well as UK) in Ireland and that this involvement has involved carrying out criminal acts. Where we probably disagree is on the extent to which these acts and false flag operations may have been deliberately used to tilt the political balance at some critical stages.

Terrorism imo is a dead end in terms of getting political change and I can't think of any population that has gained political advance from it. It suprises me that some Republicans don't seem to question why actions they advocated, or have used, have at times been indistinguishable in character from actions they have claimed are "false flag".
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