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 Poll: Will this Dáil see a full term? - Support for FF falls 15% (Joe Behan Resigns from the Party)

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Will this Dáil see a full term?
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PostSubject: Re: Poll: Will this Dáil see a full term? - Support for FF falls 15% (Joe Behan Resigns from the Party)   Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:12 pm

Varadkar was on Newstalk, kicking the backside of the unions.
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PostSubject: Re: Poll: Will this Dáil see a full term? - Support for FF falls 15% (Joe Behan Resigns from the Party)   Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:37 pm

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:
Varadkar was on Newstalk, kicking the backside of the unions.

Remember Pulp Fiction ? Harvey Keitel at the end was the Cleaner. He was a ruthless bostord who cleaned stuff up. Are FG going to be the Cleaner ?
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PostSubject: Re: Poll: Will this Dáil see a full term? - Support for FF falls 15% (Joe Behan Resigns from the Party)   Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:46 pm

Auditor #9 wrote:
EvotingMachine0197 wrote:
Varadkar was on Newstalk, kicking the backside of the unions.

Remember Pulp Fiction ? Harvey Keitel at the end was the Cleaner. He was a ruthless bostord who cleaned stuff up. Are FG going to be the Cleaner ?

Very possibly. But not like Harvey. More like "Keeping Up Appearences," with "Mrs Bucket" as the cleaner, donning a pair of lace gloves to clean out the septic tank.
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PostSubject: Re: Poll: Will this Dáil see a full term? - Support for FF falls 15% (Joe Behan Resigns from the Party)   Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:53 pm

Hermes wrote:
Auditor #9 wrote:
EvotingMachine0197 wrote:
Varadkar was on Newstalk, kicking the backside of the unions.

Remember Pulp Fiction ? Harvey Keitel at the end was the Cleaner. He was a ruthless bostord who cleaned stuff up. Are FG going to be the Cleaner ?

Very possibly. But not like Harvey. More like "Keeping Up Appearences," with "Mrs Bucket" as the cleaner, donning a pair of lace gloves to clean out the septic tank.

lol! And remember Keitel was only cleaning up so that the "hitmen" could carry on being hitmen. His changes were cosmetic so that the same game could continue. Mizz Buquet might actually be preferable.
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PostSubject: Re: Poll: Will this Dáil see a full term? - Support for FF falls 15% (Joe Behan Resigns from the Party)   Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:01 pm

The thing about Hyacinth was that her focus was purely on keeping up appearances, or in our case if you prefer, maintaining international reputation. Of course the joke was that everyone can see through the facade and are just laughing their asses off. It's Harvey for me. Nobody laughed at that m*****f*****.
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PostSubject: Re: Poll: Will this Dáil see a full term? - Support for FF falls 15% (Joe Behan Resigns from the Party)   Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:09 pm

coc wrote:
The thing about Hyacinth was that her focus was purely on keeping up appearances, or in our case if you prefer, maintaining international reputation. Of course the joke was that everyone can see through the facade and are just laughing their asses off. It's Harvey for me. Nobody laughed at that m*****f*****.

Yup, there's no doubt about it. We need a few tough and hardy bastards. Are there any currently congealed in the Dáil is the thing though. I'd say not. And more to the point, I'd say any that approach being tough and hardy, tend to only act this way with the weak. We need some arsekickers, who aren't afraid to lodge their size elevens in some flabby arses.
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PostSubject: Re: Poll: Will this Dáil see a full term? - Support for FF falls 15% (Joe Behan Resigns from the Party)   Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:00 pm

Nah, it's Hyacinth for me every time. While she is only superficial, she's at least harmlessly so. A blethering idiot whose mindset may be constrained but whose actions and words are easily seen in the full bloom of their baffoonery. Airs and graces so easily seen through are easily dealt with by the average joe.

No, far more insidiuos will those who sacrifice a few fatted calves and claim to have appeased the gods. And if current prognosis is anything to go by, will blithely return to the old and trusted economic/financial methods of the recent past. They'll tweak a few rules here and there and tell a new breed of hitmen the games can begin again, and they'll expect a different result!

At this juncture, even the state party seems to be turning on a few of their bank buddies. While other nations have created trash banks for trash assets, we'll probably create a tribunal bank. Anyway, the bankers are easy targets. The world's banking structure is in ruins and we're only beginning to see what smouldering remains are left, if we are at that point.

A few slain sacrifical calves at this point don't amount to a hill of beans.
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PostSubject: Re: Poll: Will this Dáil see a full term? - Support for FF falls 15% (Joe Behan Resigns from the Party)   Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:15 pm

So what we really need then is a Keyser Söze type to slash and burn but will then hand things over to ... who? ... the Zapatistas? Who in the Dáil could be Keyser Söze and who could be the Zapatistas?
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PostSubject: Re: Poll: Will this Dáil see a full term? - Support for FF falls 15% (Joe Behan Resigns from the Party)   Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:44 pm

Ah, the old black and white argument. It's one or t'other and every other alternative shouldn't be explored. Though, there is a newer narrative tbf. It goes something along the lines that socialism has failed so free-market capitalism is the only game in town. "Don't bother looking for alternatives because the experts got it all sussed out."

Me good guy, you bad guy. Call in Rambo. De good guys win.

I'll stick with Ms. Bucket. She'll do less harm in the long run until a viable alternative is found and implemented. (I'm afraid, however, we'll probably get a Rambo-hitman who'll be touted as the saviour of the free markets.)
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PostSubject: Re: Poll: Will this Dáil see a full term? - Support for FF falls 15% (Joe Behan Resigns from the Party)   Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:59 pm

Ah no, I didn't mean it like that. I agree with you that the jig is up, just not with your view that there's no point in removing the current cabal, even if only for appearances sake.
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PostSubject: Re: Poll: Will this Dáil see a full term? - Support for FF falls 15% (Joe Behan Resigns from the Party)   Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:13 pm

rockyracoon wrote:
Ah, the old black and white argument. It's one or t'other and every other alternative shouldn't be explored. Though, there is a newer narrative tbf. It goes something along the lines that socialism has failed so free-market capitalism is the only game in town. "Don't bother looking for alternatives because the experts got it all sussed out."

Me good guy, you bad guy. Call in Rambo. De good guys win.

I'll stick with Ms. Bucket. She'll do less harm in the long run until a viable alternative is found and implemented. (I'm afraid, however, we'll probably get a Rambo-hitman who'll be touted as the saviour of the free markets.)

I thought that only Bertie thought FF were socialists. Were they not capitalists with a slush fund for buying off the opposition ?

We are just not ready to deal with the world wide collapse of capitalism. From what I read and hear, we would have been readier in the 1960s or 70s than we are now. The parties are all soft but lack of readiness won't put off the force of history. Big change is coming whether we're ready or not.
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PostSubject: Re: Poll: Will this Dáil see a full term? - Support for FF falls 15% (Joe Behan Resigns from the Party)   Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:07 pm

eoinmn wrote:
soubresauts wrote:
eoinmn wrote:
Perhaps what we need is a government of Labour, the Greens, and some new party made up of like minded people from FF, FG and the PDs. With Brian Lenihan in the top job?
Well... if the Greens could rediscover their long-lost enthusiasm for consensus decision-making... who knows? Perhaps. Maybe.
I think the idea of creating a new party from FF and FG is a bit more far fetched, but whatever. Never let the oppurtunity to make a dig at the Greens go by sure, Soubresauts.
soubresauts wrote:
What looks more doable is a FF-FG coalition. A strong, stable government. Surely?
A Populist-Populist government, sure what can go wrong?
Perhaps if they were in government together they'd suddenly have the ability to make hard decisions, since there would be less of an opposition, but I'm unsure.

John Gormley has said it would be irresponsible of any party to rule out a national government.

Dan Boyle last week spoke of bankers committing "economic treason". This week Noel Dempsey is using the same phrase. Irish Election are asking if Dempsey's comment is the start of a leadership bid. I think there is an acknowledgement within FF that Cowen is a liability.

The Fianna Fáil Ard Fheis and Green Party Convention are this weekend and next weekend respectively.

Last Saturday 120,000 people marched in Dublin. And I have no doubt this rattled the government.

The Gardai went into Anglo Irish yesterday.

And then there are rumours online about a certain backbencher.

I think we're closer to a collapse of government now than it could have been imagined a few months ago. In fact, I'd be surprised if the government makeup hasn't changed within a fortnight.


Last edited by eoinmn on Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Poll: Will this Dáil see a full term? - Support for FF falls 15% (Joe Behan Resigns from the Party)   Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:12 pm

I'm starting to think a National Government may be the only way out of this. It's probably the only way to stifle the party political nonesense that's getting in the way of saving the country. I wonder could FF and FG actually operate successfully together inside the same Government? I suspect not but anything is worth a try at this stage..
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PostSubject: Re: Poll: Will this Dáil see a full term? - Support for FF falls 15% (Joe Behan Resigns from the Party)   Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:19 pm

unaligned wrote:
I'm starting to think a National Government may be the only way out of this. It's probably the only way to stifle the party political nonesense that's getting in the way of saving the country. I wonder could FF and FG actually operate successfully together inside the same Government? I suspect not but anything is worth a try at this stage..

Just listening to the Dail now and it sounds like they'd get on like 60 houses on fire in North County Dublin.

I was thinking the other day that a National Government might have been better during the BOOM when everything needed to be slowed down and the heat taken out of everything ... I don't know what mechanism could be used for justifying the need for that though ... maybe if we were in the habit of voting on policy rather than politicians ..

Did Caoimhin O'Caolain just say 'bullshit' in the Dail ?????
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PostSubject: Re: Poll: Will this Dáil see a full term? - Support for FF falls 15% (Joe Behan Resigns from the Party)   Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:23 pm

unaligned wrote:
I'm starting to think a National Government may be the only way out of this. It's probably the only way to stifle the party political nonesense that's getting in the way of saving the country. I wonder could FF and FG actually operate successfully together inside the same Government? I suspect not but anything is worth a try at this stage..
I cynically said before on this thread..
Quote :
A Populist-Populist government, sure what can go wrong?
Perhaps
if they were in government together they'd suddenly have the ability to
make hard decisions, since there would be less of an opposition, but
I'm unsure.
Now I've had a change of heart.
I see FG engage in mud slinging and point scoring, and think to myself that actually, they (FF&FG) could function well in a national coalition. (I realise that sentence makes no sense). But what I mean is, the only difference between them is optics and the mud-de-jour, not policy. And it has always been so.
I think both parties are able to turn off the mud-slinging just as easily as they turn it on.
I think they could fucntion for a few years together.

Obviously they'd have to fight an election against each other in 2011, whereupon the mud would come out again, but sure so be it.
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PostSubject: Re: Poll: Will this Dáil see a full term? - Support for FF falls 15% (Joe Behan Resigns from the Party)   Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:32 pm

If they went into Government together, and implemented a shared policy, why would they continue to exist as separate parties?

If the main difference between them is turf, then will they not want to hold on to that come what may? If FG went in to Government with FF, would they not suffer the same sad fate as those who have tried it before?

So far as I can see if it did happen it would be a two headed monster. Does FG have any more of a strategy that is fair and equal than FF ?
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PostSubject: Re: Poll: Will this Dáil see a full term? - Support for FF falls 15% (Joe Behan Resigns from the Party)   Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:40 pm

cactus flower wrote:
Does FG have any more of a strategy that is fair and equal than FF ?
Goodness no.
And before the last GE my worst nightmare was a FF-FG coalition.

cactus flower wrote:
If they went into Government together, and implemented a shared policy, why would they continue to exist as separate parties?
The young turks in FG would probably try to position themselves as a right wing party. The new PDs.
In a way I think FF have more to fear than FG. The FF brand is tarnished now, and I don't see it recovering by 2011.

cactus flower wrote:
If the main difference between them is turf, then will they not want to hold on to that come what may? If FG went in to Government with FF, would they not suffer the same sad fate as those who have tried it before?
There are numerous reasons why Labour and the PDs suffered after coalition with Fianna Fail. The didn't lose seats solely because of coalition with FF.
The PDs for example, had two dreadful leaders who wasted party money and lost touch with their grassroots.
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PostSubject: Re: Poll: Will this Dáil see a full term? - Support for FF falls 15% (Joe Behan Resigns from the Party)   Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:02 pm

Well, couldn't we 'nationalise' the Ministry of Finance? Like the Tallaght Strategy, but on a more formal basis. I suppose it would be a Troika with Joan Burton, Richard Bruton and eh...Brian Lenihan. If we can at least partially depoliticise the hard decisions, perhaps we might be able to get things moving. The three Finance spokespeople could be supported by an economic council of experts (ideally including people from overseas who have experience of economic recovery programmes). Maybe it's unworkable, but the current situation certainly doesn't seem to be working.
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PostSubject: Re: Poll: Will this Dáil see a full term? - Support for FF falls 15% (Joe Behan Resigns from the Party)   Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:16 pm

unaligned wrote:
Well, couldn't we 'nationalise' the Ministry of Finance? Like the Tallaght Strategy, but on a more formal basis. I suppose it would be a Troika with Joan Burton, Richard Bruton and eh...Brian Lenihan. If we can at least partially depoliticise the hard decisions, perhaps we might be able to get things moving. The three Finance spokespeople could be supported by an economic council of experts (ideally including people from overseas who have experience of economic recovery programmes). Maybe it's unworkable, but the current situation certainly doesn't seem to be working.

Excellent idea.
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PostSubject: Re: Poll: Will this Dáil see a full term? - Support for FF falls 15% (Joe Behan Resigns from the Party)   Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:31 pm

This is not a time for consensus politics.

This is a time for brilliant strategy and consistency of ideas. A complex solution cannot be implemented unless there is somebody who can mesh all elements so that they works towards one goal.

I think Bruton and Lenihan could possibly agree on a strategy and pursue it. Burton has not come up with anything that I know of and there is no reason to believe she could work well with the others. However, I think Bruton would have to come on his own without his politicking leader. In the meantime, I think Lenihan is up to the job on his own.

There is a potential problem is that the dept of finance may be operating beyond its capacity. The banks have sucked in all our resources but the budget has become the bigger problem.

If Lenihan gets the support of the silent majority then that will be enough. whether he can achieve that remains to be seen. More spin, propaganda and rhetoric please! The masses are not behaving as required.
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PostSubject: Re: Poll: Will this Dáil see a full term? - Support for FF falls 15% (Joe Behan Resigns from the Party)   Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:35 pm

Zhou_Enlai wrote:
In the meantime, I think Lenihan is up to the job on his own.

What makes you think that?
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PostSubject: Re: Poll: Will this Dáil see a full term? - Support for FF falls 15% (Joe Behan Resigns from the Party)   Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:09 pm

I am impressed by his performance to date. The only questionable decision was the Guarantee of all the banks and I am not sure that he was wrong on that. he has been cool, decisive and very clear in his explanations (save and except in respect of the levy - I'll give him a mulligan on that considering the measure provided a degree of reassurance to financial markets.)
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PostSubject: Re: Poll: Will this Dáil see a full term? - Support for FF falls 15% (Joe Behan Resigns from the Party)   Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:54 pm

The silent majority? The poll people don't answer. The opinions never expressed. The majority that can never be concretely counted. Handy to have on your side, if only they'd make themselves known.

The financial affairs of this country have been handled ineptly for quite some time -right to this moment of writing. (Tax-scams at the highest levels; shady banking deals coming to life; Ministers with money they can't account for; large governmental budget surpluses evaporting into large deficts in short order; and I'm only skimming the surface.) Financial planning and regulation are a joke. Ireland is not the only country experiencing difficulties in these areas. Many, many countries all shares similar stories in part or in whole.

There seems to be an entitlement mentality operating at the highest (some would argue lowest) levels of many societies. Those with large wallets and those with power-connections think they're entitlsd, by virtue of money and power, to manipulate the core values and rules of society to their own ends. The results are empirically evident. I'm sure that many governments and agencies will begin to clean up their acts and actions. However, they'll, at best, only be returning to an environment that existed c. 20 years ago. A better environment, perhaps, but maybe not enough for what confronts us in the years to come. One lives in hope though.
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PostSubject: Re: Poll: Will this Dáil see a full term? - Support for FF falls 15% (Joe Behan Resigns from the Party)   Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:01 pm

The polls show that whilst FF support has been decimated large swathes of the public support the measures taken by the government to fight the crisis. That includes the levy.
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PostSubject: Re: Poll: Will this Dáil see a full term? - Support for FF falls 15% (Joe Behan Resigns from the Party)   Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:04 pm

I think Brian Lenihan is a vast improvement on his predecessor, Brian Cowen.
He is also no worse than any of his EU counterparts.

For a guy that only became finance minister a year ago, during the worst possible time to be finance minister, he is performing well.
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