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 Fluoride - do you trust the scientists?

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PostSubject: Re: Fluoride - do you trust the scientists?   Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:09 pm

Auditor #9 wrote:
No, aluminium wouldn't be something you'd boil out of water I'd imagine. How did they know that it needed to be .. boiled i.e. how did they detect the aluminium in the first instance - routine tests or something ?

And who looks after these things - Councils or the EPA or a wider European body ?

Its easy enough for local authorities to know how much aluminium is in the water as they put it in themselves. Makes it nice and shiny. pale
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PostSubject: Re: Fluoride - do you trust the scientists?   Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:59 pm

The latest from the WHO is the "Guidelines for Drinking-Water Quality, Second Addendum to the 3rd Edition Volume 1 - Recommendations" (pdf document here).

As I expected, they keep calling fluoride a "nutrient", an appalling scandal. Note the mealy-mouthed language:
p. 17:
Quote :
Rainwater lacks minerals, but some minerals in appropriate concentrations are essential for health, such as calcium, magnesium, iron and fluoride.

p. 48 (Here is the WHO covering itself against lawsuits, while obviously not caring that governments almost invariably ignore this advice.):
Quote :
In setting national standards for fluoride or in evaluating the possible health consequences of exposure to fluoride, it is essential to consider the intake of water by the population of interest and the intake of fluoride from other sources (e.g., from food, air and dental preparations). Where the intakes from other sources are likely to approach, or be greater than, 6 mg/day, it would be appropriate to consider setting standards at a lower concentration than the guideline value.
There is no doubt that many Irish people are ingesting more fluoride than 6 mg/day, but the "health" authorities pretend everything is grand. Just keep on fluoridating the population, one size fits all. Sure it's great stuff. As the Irish Times pointed out, it's only loonies who object to having fluoride forced down their throats.

p. 48:
Quote :
Fluoride may be an essential element for humans; however, essentiality has not been demonstrated unequivocally.
That statement is more than just idiotic; it's thoroughly malicious. There is no reason to think fluoride is essential; quite the opposite in fact. Fluoride is more toxic than lead.

Quote :
... Many epidemiological studies of possible adverse effects of the long-term ingestion of fluoride via drinking-water have been carried out.
That is outrageously misleading. Few studies of that kind have been carried out, and none have been of the highest scientific quality. Basically, the science supporting fluoridation is rubbish.

p. 49:
Quote :
There is no evidence to suggest that the guideline value of 1.5 mg/litre set in 1984 and reaffirmed in 1993 needs to be revised.
They would say that, wouldn't they? It's nonsense. The guideline value should be 0.1 mg/litre. Nobody needs fluoride, ever. Before fluoridation started in Ireland (1964), 99% of water supplies had fluoride levels below 0.1 mg/l.

One of the problems with this latest document is the involvement of British scientist John Fawell MBE (he got the award for "services to water") who coordinated the fluoride sections of the main Drinking Water Guidelines document. For that he was working with four dentists, among them the UCC fluoride fanatics O'Mullane and Whelton, and the English fluoride fanatic Michael Lennon.

There's more about Fawell on this page (towards the bottom of the page). His involvements with Solvay (on the sham "Green" website greenfacts.org) and The Sapphire Group are worrying.
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PostSubject: Re: Fluoride - do you trust the scientists?   Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:05 am

[MOD]Merged with current flouride thread.[/MOD]

I think fluoridation came up because I pointed out it's a conspiracy...

Auditor #9 wrote:
Ok, fluoride isn't a nutrient, no. Can they claim it occurs naturally and is ingested routinely in the state of nature ?
It does occur naturally. There's at least a trace of it in every water supply. When it gets over 0.5 mg/litre you start to see harmful effects in the population -- dental fluorosis being the first indicator. 99% of Irish water supplies were below 0.1 mg/l before fluoridation started. If a salmon river has 0.5 mg/l fluoride (from pollution), the fish will start to die out.

Fluoride accumulates in your body. The more you ingest, the more damage it does.

Quote :
Is there any established correlation between fluoride dosage and some deficiency though in any country ?
There's no such thing as fluoride deficiency. On the other hand, fluoride can cause iodine deficiency. It's all to do with the thyroid; see this.

Quote :
Maybe they won't research it here because it'd be too scary.
Correct.

Quote :
We need a control and an experimental group on which to test for effects. That must exist in Ireland - two communities, one without fluoridation the other with.
Nobody in the Republic of Ireland can escape being dosed with artificial fluoride, unless they take extraordinary measures. Most processed food contains fluoride from the water, nearly all drinks (including Guinness), and so on. Northern Ireland is not fluoridated so you'd find control groups there. The only scientific studies comparing the two populations have been those carried out by the fluoridator dentists.

Quote :
Incidences of some conditions could be collected but how would they b related to fluoridation ... ? It's impossible to control and experiment on a population like that.
Obviously, fluoridation is a lunatic [back on topic], uncontrolled experiment on the Irish population.

We do know quite a bit about the effects of even low doses of fluoride. And there seems to have been a significant increase in the incidence of various fluoride-related diseases since fluoridation started. See
this. An appalling vista. So it must be ignored by the medical establishment.
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PostSubject: Re: Fluoride - do you trust the scientists?   Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:50 am

I really don't care about this issue. I've been drinking large quantities of water from my tap for years now and I haven't had any complaints. I haven't been to hospital except to visit others and I'm quite healthy and any health problems I have are genetic/hereditary conditions. Fluoride in, fluoride out, I'm not bothered.
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PostSubject: Re: Fluoride - do you trust the scientists?   Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:57 am

soubresauts wrote:
Quote :
Is there any established correlation between fluoride dosage and some deficiency though in any country ?
There's no such thing as fluoride deficiency. On the other hand, fluoride can cause iodine deficiency. It's all to do with the thyroid; see this.

Thanks for taking the time to do that - both your posts are above. The interview continues unfortunately for you.

By "deficiency" I meant health deficiencies as a result of ingesting above the recommended daily dosages ? I'll have a read of that later but I have to say this - if there are communities who are being dosed with fluoride and plenty who aren't then I'd imagine that would constitute two ideal groups for study. I believe we in Clare for example get plenty of fluoride. I don't know why I know that but I think I picked it up from a (Cork?) dentist in a laboratory (no joke) who looked at me funny when I was younger and needed the money saying "ahhh, you're from Clare? - I see now ... they still flouridate your water a lot there - it's supposed to help your teeth".

If the people of Clare are getting fluoridated and the people of Cork or Bayern aren't then that should constitute two large enough groups surely to detect health differences due to fluoride ? I should read your link first but I will now.

Lastly, do you know of a piece of kit I can get my hands on to measure the amount of fluoride in my tap water ?
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PostSubject: Re: Fluoride - do you trust the scientists?   Sat Dec 13, 2008 2:56 am

Auditor #9 wrote:
I'll have a read of that later but I have to say this - if there are communities who are being dosed with fluoride and plenty who aren't then I'd imagine that would constitute two ideal groups for study. I believe we in Clare for example get plenty of fluoride. I don't know why I know that but I think I picked it up from a (Cork?) dentist in a laboratory (no joke) who looked at me funny when I was younger and needed the money saying "ahhh, you're from Clare? - I see now ... they still flouridate your water a lot there - it's supposed to help your teeth".
Cork's water is just as fluoridated as Clare's water.

Quote :
If the people of Clare are getting fluoridated and the people of Cork or Bayern aren't then that should constitute two large enough groups surely to detect health differences due to fluoride ? I should read your link first but I will now.
There's no water fluoridation in Bavaria, but there's a lot of fluoridated salt there.

Quote :
Lastly, do you know of a piece of kit I can get my hands on to measure the amount of fluoride in my tap water ?
Sorry, I don't know. I fear it wouldn't be cheap, or else I'd have heard about it. Unless you're on a very small, local water supply, there will be fluoride in your water at around 0.7 mg/litre. Exceedances are unfortunately common.
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PostSubject: Re: Fluoride - do you trust the scientists?   Sat Dec 13, 2008 3:27 am

I'm just reading some of the link -
Quote :
Gorlitzer von Mundy (Austria) reports that daily intake of 3 mgs of fluoride in rabbits and rats leads to goiter and cretinism-like conditions.
http://poisonfluoride.com/pfpc/html/thyroid_history.html

-- is that anything to do with the street-lingo I'm more familiar with ? This is the argument against fluoride isn't it - it affects brain development.

I think the original use of the 'cretin'-related words were medically associated with thyroid functions. Wouldn't there be some IQ disparity between groups - something noticeable ?
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PostSubject: Re: Fluoride - do you trust the scientists?   Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:14 am

Whatever about the issue in the question, I find it a bit depressing to see any thread asking if you 'trust' someone. I used to post on politics.ie until it became a paranoid zone full of extremists and conspiracy theorists. It began to fill up with 'do you trust politicians/the guards/Fianna Fail/Church/ etc. I hope we don't having paranoid threads here.
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PostSubject: Re: Fluoride - do you trust the scientists?   Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:17 am

Papal Knight wrote:
Whatever about the issue in the question, I find it a bit depressing to see any thread asking if you 'trust' someone. I used to post on politics.ie until it became a paranoid zone full of extremists and conspiracy theorists. It began to fill up with 'do you trust politicians/the guards/Fianna Fail/Church/ etc. I hope we don't having paranoid threads here.

Don't worry, if the conspiracy theorists come, youngdan - our gargoyle - will scare them off.



maybe they're already here though ...
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PostSubject: Re: Fluoride - do you trust the scientists?   Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:35 am

Auditor #9 wrote:
... This is the argument against fluoride isn't it - it affects brain development.
One of many arguments.

Quote :
I think the original use of the 'cretin'-related words were medically associated with thyroid functions. Wouldn't there be some IQ disparity between groups - something noticeable ?
See for yourself, here. Quote:
Quote :
23 published studies report an association of reduced IQ with high fluoride exposure


Last edited by soubresauts on Sat Dec 20, 2008 3:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Fluoride - do you trust the scientists?   Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:53 am

Just a disclaimer on the conspiracy theory stuff - this site will not tolerate an over-burdence of conspiracy theories but they have their place. I think it's very healthy to doubt and to juggle certain ideas around but the trouble is if gains some sort of super-paranoia and starts affecting everything. That's potentially very unhealthy - at least it's imbalanced like a bad pair of axles on your vehicle. I can't remember what those things - wishbones ! - if your wishbones are not aligned right then your wheels could rattle off half way to Clonmel from Limerick. Or your steering could come apart - not good. There's paranoia for you - check your tyres for wear !

So no, a lack of balance here will not go down too well but at the same time many theories are worth investigating, sometimes for the sheer entertainment value. But other stuff like the moon landings hoax/not hoax are well worth pursuing as an exercise - many of us learned a bit of rocket science from the Moonie thread for instance and EvotingMachine0197 wrote one of the best posts ever anywhere and deserves a medal. Unfortunately it didn't convince youngdan though.

On the fluoride - whatever about Aliens, Evil Bankers, Declan Ganley with 666 printed on the crown of his pole, I reserve the right to be eminently paranoid about what substances pass my lips.
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PostSubject: Re: Fluoride - do you trust the scientists?   Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:41 am

A dental scientist here puts a pea-sized chunk of toothpaste on a tooth brush. The warning on the toothpaste tube is: "Don't swallow - if you do, call the poison control centre". He says the piece of toothpaste has 0.25 mg of fluoride.

Next he shows us a glass of tap water. It also has 0.25 mg fluoride Shocked


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rU4gO-8RAWc
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PostSubject: Re: Fluoride - do you trust the scientists?   Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:42 am

evm did not convince me with his post because it dealt with escaping orbit on which there is ni disagreement because it is easy.
Landing is the hard part.

is is not a theory about Floride. It is a deadly poison. Anyone that disagrees on this should eat a tube and find out the easy way
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PostSubject: Re: Fluoride - do you trust the scientists?   Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:02 am

youngdan wrote:
is is not a theory about Floride. It is a deadly poison. Anyone that disagrees on this should eat a tube and find out the easy way
Steady on there, youngdan. Who knows, someone might respect you enough to follow your directions.

Let’s recall the only lucid passage of the Irish Government’s Fluoridation Forum report (2002):

Quote :
A standard tube of toothpaste contains about 125 gram of toothpaste (generally containing 1500 ppm fluoride); swallowing as little as one-quarter of a tube may be life-threatening for a one-year-old child.


The fluoride added to water (hydrofluorosilicic acid) is even more toxic than toothpaste fluoride (source: the bible of fluoride toxicology -- "Fluorine intoxication" by Kaj Roholm, 1937).

Youngdan, most Massachusetts water is fluoridated. Is yours not?
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PostSubject: Re: Fluoride - do you trust the scientists?   Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:38 am

soubresauts wrote:
45 years of compulsory fluoridation (starting with Dublin city, other cities and towns following over the years) must have weakened the population. Fluoride is a cumulative poison. Ireland is the only democracy in the world with mandatory water fluoridation.

Note that only two towns in Northern Ireland were fluoridated, and that was stopped a few years ago.
Norn Irn isn't fluoridated so ?
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PostSubject: Re: Fluoride - do you trust the scientists?   Tue Jan 13, 2009 7:37 am

I don't know at the moment because it is frozen.
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PostSubject: Re: Fluoride - do you trust the scientists?   Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:07 pm

Youngdan, I hope you'll take a shower soon (in unfluoridated water).

Auditor #9 wrote:
Norn Irn isn't fluoridated so ?
That's right. Only two towns, Holywood and Tandragee, were ever fluoridated, and that stopped about ten years ago. The people up north made clear that they didn't want it.

The people in the Republic of Ireland made that clear too -- 90% of the more than 1000 written submissions by the public to the Fluoridation Forum (2000-2002) called for an end to fluoridation. Who wants to be slowly poisoned?

So, why is the RoI still fluoridated? It seems to be because FF ministers can be relied on to bow to the vested interests, even though there is not one Irish medical doctor willing to defend fluoridation in public debate. And the Greens apparently don't care about their policy and principles (not least the precautionary principle).

Despite all the informed statements, despite all the good intentions, we're left with just a handful of Irish people willing to shout: "Don't put poison in my water!" And none of them are politicians.

Must be one of the effects of fluoride...
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PostSubject: Re: Fluoride - do you trust the scientists?   Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:47 pm

Like most people in Ireland I have been drinking water with fluoride in it all my life with no ill effects. As a result I have no problem with it. The concentrations of fluoride in our water are tiny. I got a tour once of the Dublin water treatment plant in Ballymore Eustace, it was very interesting, and they were very open to questions and showed us the whole plant. Just to upset every one they actually add a poison called Chlorine to our water as well...shock..horror.. and we were shown how this was done. In parts of Europe this isn't done and UV light is used instead, because of this you can only use the water in these parts of Europe for washing and boiling and you have to buy youring drinking water in bottles.

As far as I am aware, (I am an Engineer not a Doctor), the only downside of too much fluoride in your diet is stained teeth, however this can easily be removed using a mouthwash. The downside of not enough fluoride in your diet is serious tooth decay.

This debate reminds me of the MMR debate with people getting upset over reports on incorrectly carried out experiments. A lot of heat generated but very little light. It is interesting to note that three children in Ireland have died in the last few years as a result of their parents refusal to give them the MMR. However luckily not using fluoride is not going to kill anyone. If you are really upset about fluoride in your water I suggest you drink bottled water instead.

The Government has to make decisions for the whole health of the nation, with the best sciencfic knowledge available. It cant implement ever illogically and anti-science fad. With the recession and the problems in our health system I think we has more pressing issues than tinkering with a system which works, outside of Galway.
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PostSubject: Re: Fluoride - do you trust the scientists?   Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:07 pm

Art wrote:
Like most people in Ireland I have been drinking water with fluoride in it all my life with no ill effects. As a result I have no problem with it. The concentrations of fluoride in our water are tiny...
Art, your ignorance is astounding. There are so many errors in your post that I don't have time to correct them now. Life is short, and fluoridation makes it shorter (and we have the evidence).

Have a heart, Art. You are cordially invited to examine the evidence.
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PostSubject: Re: Fluoride - do you trust the scientists?   Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:19 pm

Ignorance = Bliss, soubresauts

Why didn't you tell me Norn Irn was fluoride free before, speaking of in the darkness ? This could be a potentially very valuable source of two samples of subject, very analysable if there is enough health data around.

Are there extensive studies done between the two groups do you know - or are there enough health stats for a half decent analysis ? Areas that could/might stand out are dental records, brain development (from your above link)
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PostSubject: Re: Fluoride - do you trust the scientists?   Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:46 pm

The different flouridation policy in the fourth green field is often refered to as a reason for differing dental health profiles between north and south. So yes, you are correct, there ought to be data showing the negative effects of the flouride on other aspects of health. Unless they are being supressed by dark forces that is. ;-)

This is not intended to disparage soubresauts' diligence on this matter. I am agnostic on the issue and generally don't drink tap water anyway (more as a result of the shit content rather than the flouride content) but I do find the Greens about turn on the matter astonishing. It would have been a trivial matter for them to set up a committee or commission to look into this (over a suitably prolonged period) and thus evade the charge of treachery. Look how Gormley is slowly killing the incinerator (or at least trying to be seen to be doing so). I suppose it comes down to the fact that soubresauts has only one vote. You should change your username to soubresaut.
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PostSubject: Re: Fluoride - do you trust the scientists?   Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:14 pm

Soubresants.

So your evidence is a website called Fluoride Action Network, that really sounds balanced and even handed.

For instance there mission statement is:

"The Fluoride Action Network is an international coalition seeking to broaden public awareness about the
toxicity of fluoride compounds and the health impacts of current fluoride exposures."


What total rubbish, a proper scientific or research organisation does not make up its mind first and then look for evidence to support this. It looks at all the evidence first, does proper tests and research, and then makes its findings available to the public. A proper scientific organisation/ pressure group will revise its opinion once new evidence comes to light. Anything else is not science and does not deserve any respect.

Here's some "proof" for UFO's, you can start another crusade for them, www.ufoevidence.org.
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PostSubject: Re: Fluoride - do you trust the scientists?   Tue Jan 13, 2009 5:27 pm

Coc wrote:

Quote :
I am agnostic on the issue and generally don't drink tap water anyway
(more as a result of the shit content rather than the flouride content)

Coc,

Sorry to disappoint you but bottled water may actually have more shit (as you call it) in it than tap water, ex. Galway. Generally bottled water is untreated and sold in plastic bottles. Some inconclusive research indicate that this allows potentially cancer causing chemicals to leech into the water (from the plastic bottle), there is research ongoing on this at present, but don't say you weren't warned.

Unfortunately life's a bit more complicated than Soubresauts makes out, taking fluoride out of water will not solve all our problems and will probably create new ones.
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PostSubject: Re: Fluoride - do you trust the scientists?   Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:23 pm

Art wrote:
Unfortunately life's a bit more complicated than Soubresauts makes out, taking fluoride out of water will not solve all our problems and will probably create new ones.
You've been reading Ben Goldacre, haven't you, Art? Though I guess you skipped his article here, pointing out that there's no good science supporting fluoridation.

So, did Goldacre then pose the obvious question: Why are people being fluoridated without their consent? (Five million in England, as well as three million in Ireland)

He did not. You'd have to wonder why. It's hardly because he's an atrocious writer (though his latest book shows the benefit of a proper edit).

Anyway Art, you really ought to tell us why stopping fluoridation "will probably create" new problems.

My own take on it is that fluoridation is the only major public health problem that can be solved overnight.
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PostSubject: Re: Fluoride - do you trust the scientists?   Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:28 am

As a law student the main contact I would have had with the question is the landmark 1965 case of Ryan v Attorney General. At issue was the Health (Fluoridation of Water Supplies) Act 1960 and pursuant regulations, and whether they violated the personal right to bodily integrity. The case revolved to a large extent around the actual danger posed by fluoridation to human health, and the question was debated extensively. The Supreme Court judgement can be found at http://www.bailii.org/ie/cases/IESC/1965/1.html

That judgement falls largely on the scientific question of whether fluoride is harmful to human health so it may be useful to read. The following is an extract, only a small portion of the judgement.

extract wrote:
16. The
scientific evidence indicates that fluorine is the name of one of the chemical
elements which, in combination with other elements, is widely distributed
throughout the crust of the earth. In its pure form, uncombined with other
elements, it is a gas consisting of molecules each of which is formed by two
atoms with a neutral electrical charge. This gas does not occur naturally,
except perhaps in small quantities in vent holes of volcanoes, but it can be
produced in the laboratory by a somewhat complicated technique.

17. The
neutral atom of fluorine, is, however, subject to ionisation, that is to say,
to the addition of an extra electron to its shell, giving it a negative
electrical charge. In this form it is known as an ion, and can and does exist
as a free entity. Fluorine ions (more usually called fluoride ions), in varying
concentrations, are naturally present in many, perhaps in most, natural waters.
Where they are not present they can be supplied by the addition to the water of
any one of a number of chemical salts of fluorine which, when they are
dissolved in a weak concentration, liberate free fluoride ions into the water.
The process of adding such ions is known as fluoridation.


18. The
free fluoride ion, whether contained in water or in other substances such as
tea leaves, fish or vegetables, is readily ingested by the human body. When it
finds its way to the teeth of children, as it does, it enters into a
combination with the nascent enamel and has the effect of delaying and, to a
certain degree, of avoiding the onset of dental caries, one of the most
prevalent of human ills. The
object
of fluoridation of water which is deficient in fluoride ions is to add enough
of those ions to ensure that children who drink the water will ingest
sufficient ions to afford a measure of protection of their teeth.
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